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Why do people think aikido is a combatively...
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Why do people think aikido is a combatively useful martial art? Do they not know how evidence works?
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>>950478
Movies and TV.


>Do they not know how evidence works?

Most people actually don't.
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>>950812
This

Also /asp/ had a universal hate boner for aikido up until all the underage wrasse fags flooded this place
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>>951134
> /asp/ had a universal hate boner for aikido

We still do, for all of the valid reasons that make it a general laughingstock of the modern martial arts community, up there with CMA in general and Wing Chun in particular.
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>>950478
>Do they not know how evidence works?
Apparently, you don't, either.
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>>951516

BJJ has empirical and observational evidence supporting it's effectiveness.

All aikido has are contradictory anecdotes and "we be too dangerous for the ring" nonsense.
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>>951147
>Wing Chun in particular.

>not JKD
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tbf the local aikido club is very specific about it being just a nice hobby, and avoids the whole self defence marketing. Im sure lots of poeple just like the japanese LARPing aspect and some exercise.
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>>950478
>combatively useful

Here's where aikido is nice; you're a security guard, bouncer, or cop who can't actually hit or slam someone because you don't want a lawsuit.

It looks innocent enough on cameras and it's "pain compliance". Getting someone to go where you want or do what you say because it hurts and they don't want you to break something.

I broke a guys thumb with aikido because he did the generic bully shirt-grab, but there were about a million other more painful things I could do from that position, I just didn't want to punch him in the face because there was a camera. One time my dementia-ass teacher came up and grabbed my hair from behind and I instinctively spun and whipped him around and tore his forearm with a technique HE taught me. Aikido does work in clothing or body-grab situations, but so does judo and pretty much everything else. If I'm squaring off against a kickboxer, fuck no, I wouldn't use aikido, it'd be worthless.
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>>952701
>Here's where aikido is nice; you're a security guard, bouncer, or cop who can't actually hit or slam someone because you don't want a lawsuit.

>It looks innocent enough on cameras and it's "pain compliance". Getting someone to go where you want or do what you say because it hurts and they don't want you to break something.

this is also taught in Judo and BJJ.
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>>950478
Aikido is not something you practice for the reason of beating someone up. All it does is teach you how to find your center of mass and other people's center of mass which allows you to manipulate their force against them. Also it has nice peaceful philosophy that I think is the main thing in that art.
I've trained it as a kid and I really enjoyed the overall atmosphere around it - everyone was respectful and friendly. Later I moved on to kickboxing and eventually mma which I trained for years. This helped me get a better perspective and my opinion is that aikido is a nice hobby that'll help you relieve stress after work or school or useful if you want you (or your kids) to learn a neat peaceful eastern philosophy. It's in no way an effective martial art in a street fight unless you're a grand master
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>>953075
okay then aikido shouldn't call itself a martial art. I understand the appeal of the philosophy and the general atmosphere around its practice, which is typically very chill and makes the whole thing an okay hobby, I do. Barring the weaboos and wannabe pacifist badass teachers that you can also find in shitty karate, judo etc Aikido isn't a bad way to meet okay people.

But if it's not teaching people to fight or even defend themselves properly it shouldn't call itself a martial art. Call it an exercise system with a grounding in martial arts techniques like Tae Bo, promote its philosophical underpinnings as rendering it more natural and relaxing and helping the practitioner out in more than just the physical aspect. But if it isn't teaching you to fight it's not a martial art.
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>>952701
>Aikido works against average people

>>everyone
Daily reminder that a lot of shit works against average people, because average people don't train.
Krav Maga works against average people, Wing Chun works against average people, and whatever kind of Karate you guys don't like that doesn't have very much sparring works against average people.

When your opponent's only training is:
>I watched Enter the Dragon

ad your training is:
>I've got perfect Kickboxing technique even though I only point sparred, but I hit heavy bags and know how to hit things
You've got a gigantic, massive, colossal, advantage.
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>>953147
It is a martial art and they focus on techniques with swords and staffs

You'd find it useful if you were walking around with one.
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>>953147
>okay then aikido shouldn't call itself a martial art
we should rename it to "nippon dancing class".

I agree with you though, there are people sending their daughters to aikido for self-defence.
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>>953212
aikiken and aikijo are not highly regarded by most people who study other Japanese weapon systems,
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>>952509
>when i see something i like it's observational evidence
>when i see something i don't like it's a contradictory anecdote
:^)
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>>950478
I like it because, unlike BJJ or MMA trainings I can learn to instinctively use opponent's attacks against him while at the same time not spending every single training session rubbing my crotch in someone's face and vice versa.
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>>953212
I know this is shitposting, but I'll still talk about this.

Yes, Aikido as a development of an old school of Jujutsu still has some techniques centered around weapons, and places more emphasis on them than many other readily available martial arts in my experience. I say "in my experience" because I haven't seen FMA be as available as Aikido and other common disciplines. But yeah, while training to defend against swords is silly, knife and stick defense are not exactly a bad idea, they're common weapons. The problem with that is the same as with Aikido in general, there might be some solid basis to these things but they're filtered through Ueshiba's batshit mystical trappings.

If you train all that stuff in pre-arranged patterns and drills, where the attacker performs an agreed-upon, predictable pantomime of an attack and the defender goes through the motions of a specific lone defensive technique while the attacker takes a dive for him, you don't really learn much of anything. Especially if the explanation for all this is accompanied by talking about the blending and controlling of invisible life energies. You learn to perform the motions of Aikido Defense A against a non-resisting opponent that isn't even attacking effectively.

Again, I'm not familiar with FMA so I don't know if they train their weapons stuff like this, but this kinda thing doesn't help at all because you get used to defending in impractical, sometimes completely impossible, ways against compliant non-attackers. You're not going to be able to pull that shit off against a guy that won't take a dive and who's actually trying to hit you with a stick or worse, shank you with a knife.
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>>953359
>rubbing my crotch in someone's face

I'd rather get sweaty nutsack in my face and learn something effective than not do that and get my ass handed to me by everyone with and without training.

If you like momentum based arts, do judo. Same principles but it works way better in way more situations and it doesn't take years to get somewhat good.
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>>953398
Are we talking martial arts tournaments effective or street fight effective? About the first one, I don't care. As for the second, all I'm hoping for is enough time to pepper spray the shit out of the fuckhead who'd attack me.
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>>953401
Judo will do that better for you. Aikido is pretty much just outdated Judo with terrible training methods.
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>>953415
Not really, judo is mostly body to body, while aikido is mostly arms length
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>>953401

you don't need to use aikido if you have pepper spray. Why would you pepper spray someone then stick around for a throw?
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>>953401
>pepper spray
pepper spray is useless combined with martial arts

if you want to combine martial arts with weapons, pick any grappling martial art and a knife
>go in close against the guy, maybe even on the ground
>draw knife and stab him when he has no way to notice the knife or parry
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>>953459
>pepper spray is useless combined with martial arts
>>953401
Pepper spray can be used as a fist pack.
You can chose to punch only with that arm, or assist with grappling, or you can chose to drop the pepper spray at any time.
Depending on the range of your pepper spray, you can use it in kicking range instead of kicks.

>if you want to combine martial arts with weapons, pick any grappling martial art and a knife
In most places, you can run into serious legal complications when you use a knife against a guy.
If you chose to go with a weapon, it's in your best interest to use non-lethal weapons.
Pepper spray and Boxing can usually get the job done.
Just FMA with a telescopic baton is really all you'll need without cross training sort of speak, a large majority of the time, this will really get it done, and you don't need to reload canisters.
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>>953440
No, no man. What I'm saying is that I practiced Aikido because it was no homo way of getting the hang of some useful principles. My point about pepper spray was that against physical aggression it's much better to spray the guy, kick him down and run away asap. Someone mentioned knives. Well regardless of my training if I were to confront someone willing to cut me up I'd gladly turn tail and run rather than risk resting in pepperonis.
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The whole aikido wrist grab and "using your opponent's force against himself" simply doesn't work against athletic fighters who know what they're doing. And you can run your mouth all you want. Unless you provide some videos of your martial art being used against resisting opponents shut your fucking mouth ho.
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>>953559

Unless you have your pepper spray, you're probably going to get your ass kicked by any homo BJJer or mostly any fighter.

Just sayan.
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>>953666
>"using your opponent's force against himself" simply doesn't work against athletic fighters who know what they're doing.
Try telling that to any Judoka.
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This thread is full of people who share a misunderstanding.


Aikido is neat, and it fills a niche.
It isn't the be all and end all, and in terms of fighting ability and skills, it's fighters typically don't fare well against other fighters.

But to say the martial art is poor because of the poor quality students that train for an hour every week, in the style, and fail to even train themselves physically outside of that, whom (unfortunately) represent the style, would be much the same as calling Judo bad because Ronda got kicked in the face by a boxer.

There is no flaw in the techniques of Aikido,
Because the techniques are intended for specific applications, to judge the techniques based on circumstances that lie outside of these applications is wrong.

Aikido is a system of techniques which you can apply to a person to restrain or subdue them, ideally without harming them, but you can harm them with the techniques if you intend to (which is not Aikido's philosophy).

However, Aikido's techniques are effective in combat if applied correctly.
However, a school that preaches philosophy (which IS important) but does not train the techniques properly, and does not push its students hard, will not produce students that can utilize Aikido's techniques effectively.
Which is the problem that has created this stigma of the art.
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>>954220
>to judge the techniques based on circumstances that lie outside of these applications is wrong.
this desu senpai
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>>954220
>Because the techniques are intended for specific applications
Unless those specific applications are LARP with a compliant partner they're ineffective.
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>>954220

Aikido is ineffective at restraining people/breaking bones/whatever else it claims to do.
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>>950478
/asp/ is full of guys that started muay thai 1 month ago and they think that they know everything about martial arts because their teacher told them that muay thai is the best.
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>>953401
>Are we talking martial arts tournaments effective or street fight effective?

If by "martial arts tournaments" you mean actual fighting, like boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, knockdown krotty etc., then those are the same thing.

Unless you think untrained tardos magically possess all the qualities that make a good fighter and a good fighter loses all those qualities as soon as they step onto "the street".
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>>953401
>all I'm hoping for is enough time to pepper spray

Didn't even get to this gem:

Nah homie. CS spray and pepper spray are useless for the average person. The only time you'll see an LEO use it is if he has backup standing right there because blowback is such a fucking bitch more than half the time you get yourself just as much as the guy you're trying to spray.
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>>954553
Nice bait.
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>>954220
Aikido's techniques are based on the sort of solid background of Daito-Ryu Aiki Jujutsu but the way they're trained and applied makes them wholly ineffective against pretty much anyone not an untrained boob. And a large and overly agressive untrained boob might still prove too much for them. see >>953367

>If you train all that stuff in pre-arranged patterns and drills, where the attacker performs an agreed-upon, predictable pantomime of an attack and the defender goes through the motions of a specific lone defensive technique while the attacker takes a dive for him, you don't really learn much of anything. Especially if the explanation for all this is accompanied by talking about the blending and controlling of invisible life energies.

Stop trying to No True Scotsman. Show proof of Aikido techniques working. I've looked, and the only time Aikido ever looks good is in pre-arranged demonstrations or against people who have no clue what they're doing engaging in a friendly grappling-only context.
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>>954582

>>Show proof of Aikido techniques working.

Aikido techniques work, they just train like shit.

https://youtu.be/uidHY-HcY9M

Perfect example. Most of the wristlocks in this BJJ video are "nikkyo" in Aikido.
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>>954841
I've seen the wristlocks from the ground applied as a way to control and crumple the other guy's posture, the standup ones look like nonsense save maybe for the one from a collar grab and I'd like to see them applied in actual competition rather than a demo with a compliant partner. Also if they're trained differently and performed differently I'd hardly call them Aikido wristlocks anymore.
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>>954893
They still are the same principles that are used in Aikido: the wrist is rotated with pressure put in a way that puts pressure on a nerve. Like I was getting at: the wristlocks themselves work, the way Aikido trains them makes them far far less effective.
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File: wu.gif (3 MB, 480x360) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
wu.gif
3 MB, 480x360
>>955124
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>>955182
This .gif is still funny.

Hows your blacked girlfriend doing Wu?
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>>955124
Wow, who would have thought that the same principles that make joint locks effective would continue to work no matter what banner you slap on them. But here's the thing:

According to you Aikido trains their wristlocks badly. Therefore their application of wristlocks is also bad, you do as you train after all. To make wristlocks work you need to step outside the Aikido frame, train them differently and apply them differently. Which means you're not doing Aikido's wristlocks anymore. Because the things that mark those wristlocks as Aikido's, the way they're taught and applied in Aikido, is removed in favor of something more workable. I mean it might just be me but I've never really seen an Aikido practice where people train the back mount, for example.
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>>955182
Replying to Wu's posts with this .gif has become the equivalent of harassing someone by posting their shameful nudes all over their social media.
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>>955273
Except it's completely harmless and funny.
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>>955196
I wouldn't know, I haven't seen anyone else use this handle in months. It's pretty much been me, and I'm not him.

>>955240
Fair enough. I responded to the challenge of Aikido's wristlocks and their efficacy, stated that while the locks themselves work, the way Aikido teaches them is very poor. My main point is that Aikido has a terrible way to set up technique, but once they actually find their position, they work. Nikkyo, Sankyo, kotegaeshi, shihonage, etc all work in the way they're intended to work, but the way they choose to get there (static grabs, goofy ass strikes, no real attempt at resistance by the uke).

>Because the things that mark those wristlocks as Aikido's, the way they're taught and applied in Aikido, is removed in favor of something more workable.

I think I'm a bit confused as to which part of the technique you're finding ineffective. I posit that the setup (static stance/grabbing at the wrist and waiting for technique/over-defending a weak strike) is garbage, but once the person is in position (their center broken) the technique being applied is effective. It sounds like you're discounting the entire thing (set up and actual application of the lock). I think it's like teaching someone how to put together a soup, but giving them all the ingredients pre-chopped, measured, and divided, then that person claiming they're a great chef because they "know" how to make that soup. Sure they now understand what goes into it, but they're missing key parts of the setup. The way you're coming across, it sounds like they're even teaching them improper method on how to actually cook it on the stove.
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>>955273
He was stupid enough to post it, along with his other arrogant and asinine opinions, he deserves to be shamed for it. Wu came across as if he was highly knowledgeable about martial arts and actually had credibility while looking down on anyone else who acted like they knew what they were talking about.

It's not me and has nothing to do with the validity of what I post, so I don't care.
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>>955292
To use your cooking metaphor, I see Aikido's approach as having the ingredients to a good recipe (the actual mechanics and principles that go towards making any effective jointlock work) but then rather than making a good dish with them (effective and practical application, which includes training for it), they follow a batshit set of instructions that make a fucking mess of the preparation and actual cooking process, winding up with unedible slop.

You can't claim that you have made a good recipe when you at best just followed a different, shitty recipe that happened to have the same ingredients. You can't claim it's Aikido's wristlocks that work when the necessary training and ways of application aren't actually taught within Aikido beyond the basic mechanics of the jointlock and it's other schools that teach you to apply these effectively. It's not Aikido's wristlocks, it's training wristlocks in BJJ that makes them efficient.
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>>955321
Yep. Totally agree. We're just arguing semantics now while saying the same thing.
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>promotions for BJJ
>roll with the new blue belts
>wristlock them all with aikido wristlocks

Good times. Especially when you lock them through their guard or while they're on your back. The occasional kokyu nage throws are also quite neat.
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>>955397
I work with a kid who's a junior black belt in BJJ (he's under 18 so the instructor won't give him a black belt/instructor certification, he's done BJJ since he was 9). He's been telling me stories about his teacher throwing out these weird ass techniques and takedows he'd never seen before. He showed me a few setups and I was surprised to see that they were kotegaeshi and ikkyo.
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>>953359
>spending every single training session rubbing my crotch in someone's face and vice versa.
H-hoy
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desu maybe there isnt evidence of aikido in street fights because people that trained aikido arent hotheads that use the first possibility to test their skills but instead evade conflicts.
I dont think aikido is an effective martial art compared to the usual stuff but its better than nothing. you shouldnt do aikiod because you want to defend yourself, but because it's fun.
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>>958009
see >>953147
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Aikido can work and can be vicious, but only for the truly high tier masters who can use it in a conventional fighting setting. Anyone else can't really work it very well. It's not like in boxing or karate where even white-belts and newcomers can be taught to throw a decent punch within minutes.

Actual grappling and joint manipulation takes years of practice and the steeled mentality of a veteran practitioner. The learning curve is much harder in Aikido to use in a normal fight.
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>>958416
>only Aikido masters can use their martial art to fight because grappling is hard
>what are all these wrestlers, judoka, BJJers, samboists etc
>oh but you can learn to punch properly in minutes
>nevermind that we can't do it
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>>953432
is there a martial art like judo bat at arm lenght? I mean an effective one, not aikido
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>>958526
judo
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>>958526
Yeah it's called Judo. Look at any Judo competition, they spend a lot of time at arm's length vying for grips.
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>>958542
>>958544
judo seem less technical then aikido and looks to much like wrestling and brute strength
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>>958574
>buying into the aiki magic of knocking people around while barely touching them

Judo looks rougher because it actually works. Practical isn't pretty and breaking the balance and posture of someone who knows what they're doing and won't take dives for you is rather difficult.
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>>950478

Something that gets lost in most discussions about aikido is that everyone thinks that there is just one aikido. Even Morihei Ueshiba himself said "The techniques of Aikido change constantly; every encounter is unique, and the appropriate response should emerge naturally. Today's techniques will be different tomorrow. Do not get caught up with the form and appearance of a challenge. Aikido has no form - it is the study of the spirit." There are many styles and schools and interpretations of aikido, but it is very easy to get wrapped up in the spiritual navel-gazing aspect of it and forget that your techniques must work against a resisting opponent.

Some schools, most notably Yoshinkan, employ atemi (that is to say, strikes) in order to bring about compliance with a technique. If an atemi is effective enough, Gozo Shioda says (paraphrased here), then you don't even need to follow up with a technique.

This emphasis on "no striking for any reason ever," seems to be a misinterpretation of Ueshiba's teachings that has been propogated by the Aikikai (run currently by his grandson, Moriteru) or Ki Society, and through any school that derives from either of them. It would be nice if we could bring someone into a lock or a throw without expending any effort, but realistically you may need to strike someone in the face, throat, ears, stomach, liver, etc. in order to get them to comply. But again, one should avoid atemi except where absolutely necessary.

Another problem is that many of the throws would result in severe injury to an untrained person, so in order to make practice safer an aikidoka must practice again and over again proper rolling and break-falls. If this is not countered with randori or some kind of sparring, then it begins to take on that dance-like appearance that is so often pointed out as proof of aikido's ineffectiveness. In my experience, it actually becomes harder to execute a technique if the attacker is not committed.
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>>958526
[spoiler]Karate[/spoiler]
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>>958574
Wrestling isn't brute strength and neither is judo. You pretty much admit that you don't know shit about any of the arts, listen to people who do.
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>>960331
That's fine and all, but a few things:

The Aikikai is the largest global representative of Aikido and technically its original school. I know Aikido's offshoots, but when chances are I'll go to an aikido dojo and find Aikikai training completely lacking in strikes or resisting opponents and bogged down in shinto-derived pseudo-religious mysticism, then it's what the style will be known for.

Show me these strikes being practiced seriously, show me this randori between experienced students that know how to breakfall. Because I've looked and I can't find it. I find the same type of demonstration stuff with wholly unrealistic, telegraphed, choreographed attacks and equally bad defenses and recently this one guy uploading videos of Aikidoka "beating" "representatives" of other martial arts who are usually the same guy in a different outfit, obviously not trying and laughing all the while.

You know what I can find for Aikido randori? Shodokan Aikido, which is famous for actually having a strong focus on randori and holding competitions to encourage the development of technique against a resisting opponent. Do you know what it looks like? Bad, sloppy judo.

So I'm sorry if your school is legit and you feel the need to defend Aikido, but it's an outdated, impractical system bogged down by mysticism from the top down and until it starts showing proof of having widespread proper training and showing results in its field, it'll be known for that.
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>>960790
I mostly agree with you abou7t aikido, but I do think there should be some caveats about shodokan. From my understanding their radori was never meant to be all encompassing, but just a way for students to develop skills against resistance necessary for their larger curriculum. That being said what their allowed to do is somewhat restricted, which is why it looks the way it does.
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>>960859
If the Aikido methods applied and the form of randori used to practice these Aikido methods just wind up looking like bad Judo, I could just do Judo. I'll give Shodokan the caveat that it at least has a form of sparring specializing on defending against knives. The only problem is that even in promotional videos designed around showcasing Aikido's effectiveness the barehanded guy defending himself from a knife consistently winds up swiped and poked with the fake blade several times before managing to control and disarm the attacker.
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>>961225
Considering the knife guy will always have the advantage its not surprising, especially if they know exactly what to expect. They also have pure unarmed randori,

Interestingly the knife stuff was an idea Kano had for judo that never got implemented, Tomiki's aikido was built around with Kano's pedagogy
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>>961409
I don't give them much shit for it because I know it'd end like that pretty much no matter what, there's no real surefire knife defense. But it's still funny that this thing that they promote just winds up looking like a PSA to show you shouldn't fucking tangle with a guy with a knife.

Also, I know about Judo's influence in Shodokan Aikido since Kenji Tomiki was a Judo dan holder but I wouldn't say it was built around Kano's pedagogy. Kano's Judo was centered around taking the best aspects of numerous schools of Jujutsu as determined by practical application and testing and condensing it into a lone system. Shodokan Aikido only really tries to make its own Aikido techniques work by encouraging free randori and competition, and it shows.
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>>961646
Kano believed in reporpusing jujutsu into a system beneficial to society. he was also a stong advocate of dividing a system between kata and randori though that preceded him

its worth noting for instance that aikikai aikido does not have formal kata outside weapons tefhquies. systematizing aikido into kata, and set safe for randori and ones not was right out of kano's method. So while I admit the weakness of just coming from daito ryu, in terms of how the art is taught and structured, tomiki aikido definitely reflects Kano's thinking.
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>>960790

You are correct in that Aikikai has certainly benefited from promoting the idea that it's the only "true" source for aikido. My rough understanding is that the US Aikido Federation derives from Aikikai, and they are a bunch of micromanaging busybodies. That is to say, their emphasis is on form rather than function or practicality. For that reason, my instructor is registered under, curiously, the United States Judo Association. They have an aikido branch that allows for minor modifications to instruction, so long as certain benchmarks are met. I am but a lowly 5th kyu, so the particulars are rather beyond me.

All that being said, I do find myself rather thankful that our class seems to have avoided the worst of what are apparently endemic impracticalities. Attacks must be done with intent and must be aimed for vital areas, but with control. If we are pulling punches or vaguely hitting the area around someone, we are corrected. To be honest, it's actually easier to execute techniques against attacks with some oomph behind them. Jabs can be avoided or swatted away.
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>>961884
I dont do aikido, but I am pretty well read on it, and from what Ive read the aikikai for the most part takes a rather hands off approach. there are several transmission lines in the aikikai stemming from different shihan and they all tend to do things differently.

That said there is alot of literature to suggest the aikikai, under Ueshiba's son changed alot from what his father was doing.
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>>960331
>There are many styles and schools and interpretations of aikido, but it is very easy to get wrapped up in the spiritual navel-gazing aspect of it and forget that your techniques must work against a resisting opponent.

That probably has a lot to do with the fact that Ueshiba got much more religious as he got older, and that resulted in changes to the art. It basically got more spiritual, and more "gentle," which made it much less effective. I also suspect that Ueshiba being regarded so highly that no one was willing to resist against him had something to do with that. He could do whatever he wanted and act like his spiritual power was creating peace. Apparently, earlier Aikido was a lot more like Daito-ryu, and was much more effective.

I didn't do Aikido for very long, but the place I did it at had two instructors. One had a background in Judo, and the other had a background in Daito-ryu. They taught differently. The Judo guy was much more Aikikai-like, and while he seemed to be better than most Aikido teachers, there was still a lot of flowery bullshit in the moves and compliance. The Daito-ryu guy's techniques were much less flowery; they were often very abrupt, forceful, and more like what you'd see in Judo. They also required much less compliance. It wasn't great, but it was still much better than what you typically see. I imagine earlier Aikido styles would have been something like that.
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Funny that an aikido topic turned into MUH LINEAGE just like CMA topics
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>>963641
There is no doubt that daito ryu ;performs the techniques quite differently, less circular, more jujutsu like, I often doubt the stories ab out Ueshiba changing aikido into a "peaceful" art all on his own.

Ueshiba was always religious, and studied with many different groups, Even after his so called enlightenment, he continued to operate in far right circles, and even taught at the notorious Nakano spy school.

His experimenting with various exotic religious practices however and his "enlightenment" gave him an excuse to break with his teacher, Takeda Sokaku.
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>>963877
In general the Chinese may even care less about lineage than the Japanese do even in things like kendo which are competitive, who your teacher's teacher was is considered important
>>
>>963877
That's in no way exclusive to CMA. Taekwondo has ITF vs WTF/traditional/tang soo do/kong soo do, you have all the dickwaving between karate schools, it happens.

>>963900
except when used to justify why this or that fighter that supposedly represents their style lost to a fighter using karate/muay thai/judo/brazilian jiu jitsu/taekwondo/boxing/anything. Then it's all about the true lineage and this or that guy not knowing the true CMA.
>>
>>963877
>>963981
Don't forget BJJ.
>>
>>963900
That doesn't alter that it's evidently the only thing ching chong dance fags and magicpants LARPers can discuss.
>>
>>963995
Unfortunaly there is a phenomena where people make up credentials in order to teach.

There is also the phenomena where people think they're great because their teacher was a bad ass, or their teacher's teacher
>>
>>964018
>>964018
Which is irrelevant in both cases as neither produce any fighters nor have any significant evidence of working on a resisting opponent.
>>
>been going to a Boxing gym for more than a year now
>know the coach pretty well
>know the guys that come in pretty well
>there's 15 of us
>there's a competition in the larger near by city
>most of the guys that've been there longer than I have are competing
>skill all the bullshit
>our guys do really good
>we go to bar
>well, all of us that are old enough
>8 of us including me, 9 including coach
>I only have 1 beer, I'm a designated driver
>just about everybody else gets wasted
>a multi-ethnic group of people dressed like they're hood come into the bar there's 4-6 of them
>not sure if they're all together or just coming in at the same time because they kind of spread out
>a few drinks and shots later
>a couple of them overhear some of our guys talking about the competition all loud and drunk
>they come over and talk to the guys
>I watch
>the two hoodlum looking start talking about muh street fighting
>it turns into a my dick is bigger than yours
>more of our guys join in
>starts to escalate
>all 6 of the guys who walked in are there now
>the few that aren't as drunk try to deescalate the situation
>there's no deescalating
>I'm still watching
>coach isn't here, I think he's taking a dump
>one of the hoodlums throws a hammer-fist/straight punch at one of our guys
>my guy barely bobs out of it, it grazes his head
>everybody involved starts fighting
>literally my very first bar fight
>2 of our guys get knocked out
>I think "holy shit"
>I push a guy that's swinging at one of my guys and he falls into a table
>take a weak punch but it still hurt to the side of my head
>turn and throw a left cross (I'm a southpaw) right at his jaw and KO him
>holy fuck that hurt
>that hurt my knuckles
>I realize everybody is down
>there's a couple of my guys doing shitty ground fighting with a couple of their guys
>I see 4 of them looking at me
>I guess they hesitated a little because they could tell I wasn't drunk
>but I'm the only one left
>I get swarmed
>>
>>964137
>I mannage to connect a jab at a guy's face before I get pushed down
>they're kicking me and stomping me
>I try to get up and they push me me over again
>I'm on my side with my guard up and curled up
>the people that just sat there and watched finaly decide to try and help
>the hoodlums actually start attacking those people
>most of the people back off
>some middle aged looking guy helps me up
>some guys are yelling at the hoodlums
>just two guys that look kind of cut up but like they havn't really been exercising try to fight the hoodlums
>they just go to the ground and it's more shitty ground game
>one of the guys fighting the hoodlums has one of the hoodlums mounted
>the other hoodlums are trying to pull the guys off of their guys
>I push one of the hoodlums away with my foot and throw a sloppy stiff jab to his chest and then a left hook to his ribs he goes down with the pain
>the oher one that's standing notied and came up behind me and tried to throw a haymaker at me
>I duck the haymaker and clinch him and rush him into a table
>we both fall over
>I don't know how to grapple
>we're both BJJing without BJJ
>coach comes in and breaks it up
>turns out the two guys that helped out were ex military and and had the other guys in submissions and then tied them up with belts and stuff
>explain what happened to coach
>cops show up shortly
>there's enough witnesses and the bartender's word
>kind of suprised they didn't just turn us all in
>after the cops get the story straight, some of the hoodlums are detained, some are rushed to the ER
>we get a very stern warning, something about fines for minor damage, but nothing that serious
>two of our guys are taken by the ambulance
>the more abled are taken to the ER driven by the coach and me
>>
>>964144
>mfw our guys got so drunk we got our asses handed to us by some hoodlums
>I wasn't drunk and I got a decent beating
>word on social media starts spreading
>we make local news
>news makes us look good
>some guys start taking shit about how we got our asses handed to us
>I get a minor special spot on the news because I wasn't drunk and I was the last one standing
>females taking more interest in me
>people still talking shit about us though
>people start saying shit like "boxing is a joke" because they saw how our guys came out
>local college and high school people are divided between we suck boxing is a joke, and we're awesome we're heroes
>>
>>964137
The guys I trained Krav Maga with were almost all cops. Like 60% of them. So if we went out anyone hitting them would have been fairly problematic.
>>
I don't get this excessive put down of Aikido when it definitely have the hallmarks of martial arts. There is a lot of practice on spacing, form and strikes too.
>>
>>950478
>Why do people think aikido is a combatively useful martial art?

This >>950812

It's the same reason idiots think Bruce Lee was some kind of bad ass when he was just an actor.
>>
>>964843
That's semi true because he did practice Wing Chun
>>
>>964804

Because it also has the hallmarks of bad Martial Arts.

No live sparring, overuse of compliant drilling, a "don't question sensei" attitude, and a large amount of focus on "in da streetz" effective techniques that overinflate practitioner's confidence.

The reason it's isolated and picked on is its popularity. It's easily recognized.
>>
>>964851
Don't forget Aikido also has a very strong focus on the founder's religious philosophy of universal peace and love, giving it a huge tendency to fall into mysticism to boot. Really, the only thing preventing it from being total bullshit is that Ueshiba actually studied a number of serious (if outdated) systems and Aikido's base comes from these, primarily Daito-ryu, before he got into that religious cult and started having delusions.
>>
>>964851
But I have been in Aikido dojo before. They do live sparring all the time and they are open to interpret moves a bit.
>>
>>964876
Then you went to one of the good ones and your results were atypical.

I've been to three Aikido dojos over four years of practicing the art and all three saved Randori for belt tests. Even those that DO practice randori regularly or have a substitute (the most recent one I went to practiced Jiyu-waza, which was a form of randori where attackers had to wait until the nage finished a technique on an uke before attacking) had some awful practices and didn't teach striking at all.
>>
>>964974
Yeah, some probably focus on the tradition more I suppose. I went to one where more practical use of Aikido was a big thing.

I hear the same with Tae Kwon Do, but they all have certain wings where they are a lot more practical than people assume.
>>
>>964861
see
>>963893
>>
>>964861
>the founder's religious philosophy of universal peace and love
Sometimes, I think some of these people are just huge pussies deep down inside, but use peace as an excuse.

Personally, I like peace. I'm pro-peace. But damn do I love trying to beat the shit out of consenting people who want to beat the shit out of me, too.

I don't immediately associate attack as some display of aggressive anger, but one of my favourite parts of a fun game.

I don't try to avoid pain like some adrenaline filled, emotional non-human animal, trying everything I can to get a way from pain, but I view pain as a signal that I could probably be playing the game a little better.

I don't partake in combat like some brutish, bloodthirsty primitive, but do so in a way like I'd be approaching a game of chess.
Well, a very large majority of the time for that one.
>>
I saw this thread on the front page and I'm largely uninformed when it comes to professional fights but I took Aikido when I was younger and it's helped me a few times in my life.
>>
>>967204
There's another factor to this. I'm devoted to universal peace and love. I read Tolstoy and was hooked. But Tolstoy never said universal love and peace would be easy.

Non-violence doesn't just mean not defending yourself, it means not enlisting others to do that for you. If someone robbed the average Aikidoka, would he hesitate to call the police.

The police that won't hesitate to smack the shit out of you with batons, and use 'graceless' martial arts techniques. They wouldn't consider the obligation of universal love to the thief. They wouldn't have the humility to realized none of their possessions would matter compared to that human being. They want all of the 'ease' of pacifism, but none of the hardship.

In it's like 80 year history, how many martyrs has Aikido produced?
>>
Aikido is generally garbage because of the way it is taught and trained. In reality it does contain some useful ideas, but they aren't exclusive to aikido. I believe it is best explored as an older more knowledgeable student of another art. It shouldn't be your first exposure and base.
>>
>>967217
Anything that isn't complete makebelieve bullshit is better than nothing anon. I might not like Aikido but it has a somewhat legitimate base and some useful ideas. But most of it is still pretty fucking bad and there's better options out there.
>>
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>be bjjfag
>opportunity to train at a time we usually don't
>right after aikido class
>get there
>dojo is full of aikodo guys
>they all wear uniform gis
>looks really cool like they're league of shadows or something
>watch them from the lobby while waiting for bjj class
>they take turns running at one guy who grabs their wrist
>whenever he grabs their wrist they deliberately somersault and run away
>?
>>
>>967238
so basically one should love a thief the way one should love the black man fucking one's wife?
>>
>>967822
If you don't twist or turn with your wrist, it'll be the force of your wrist moving against the weight of your body.
This breaks the wrist.
>>
>>967826
Why do you care about the Colour this fucker has?
>>
>>952532
JKD is just an MMA, what is there to hate? Wing Chun on the other hand is ridiculous.
>>
>>968701
>what is there to hate?
When people fail to understand, delusion often occurs.
>>
>>968183
At Krav Maga I did lots of wrist locks and people resisted. If they resisted you could force the technique, by for example punching his hand, but I expect that could seriously injure the person so we didn't. We were a bit careful with that. We did kick in the groin to distract the person so his wrist relaxes and you can push on. If they didn't have time to resist or were distracted they were forced to go along with the technique as it's near impossible to resist if your wrist isnt straight anymore (and we dont know any fancy flips or twists), which usually just resulted into people moving into awkward poses. Like going on their knees or whatever. But nothing broke.

I think you can harm someone with it if you went all out, but you can also train it with a bit resistance without harming the person. It's good to check out what the limits are.

Those flips are good if you train it often and want to keep the strain low, I'm sure. It can't be healthy to constantly get into wrist locks with resistance. But you do have to look for the boundaries sometimes.
>>
>>968701
>Wing Chun on the other hand is ridiculous.
I'll have you know that Wing Chun is very effective against pittbull attacks.
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H86tMr8uW5M

>>953147
>call itself a martial art.
See >>953075
>main thing in that art.
>>
I like how people think they're always going to be up against martial artists whenever they need to use martial arts.
>>
>>968701
>JKD is just an MMA, what is there to hate?

JKD attracts a lot of RBSD LARPers, people who can't actually fight but think that just throwing a bunch of shit into the JKD mix is going to make them great fighters, and their fare share of McDojo like activities (online training programs, "belt factories", etc.).
>>
>>969423
>I like how people think they're always going to be up against martial artists whenever they need to use martial arts.

If this is in regards to Aikido and their terrible training practices: an untrained opponent struggling even a little bit would cause 99% of Aikidoka to fail because they are used to scripted demos and compliant uke.
>>
>>953666
It's hard to apply aikido to a trained attacker who controls how he's coming at you and gives no indication, no telegraph.
A trained or untrained attacker coming for me 100% is going to fucking wreck himself, an unbalanced opponent is physically as well as mentally committed, that's how aikido works on him.
I use aikido drills to get poor ass kids from shit suburbs into the idea of working in harmony together. Seriously, these poor pricks couldn't work together to put up a tent before i worked with them. They come from a place where everybody is trying to walk and talk over everyone else.
Trained striker/grappler will hit or grab you without warning and without opening himself up to counters.
Pissed off person going berserk, i'll put em through a wall and into the pool without needing to stretch out my hammies.
>>
>>969860
>what is harmony
>why do westerners not get it
>why do internet heros not go out and beat up whole schools of aikidoka practitioners
>why
>>
>>969923
>>what is harmony

An excuse for terrible training methods.

>>why do westerners not get it

Because most people who call Aikidoka on their shit actually know or want to learn how to fight.

>>why do internet heros not go out and beat up whole schools of aikidoka practitioners

Why would anyone just go beat up a bunch of people?

The question isn't "Why don't you go beat up Aikidoka", the question is "Why don't Aikidoka ever apply what they are doing to an actual resisting opponent".
>>
>>953797
Judo relies on your opponent actively shifting their weight and moving in order to defend themselves effectively.

Aikido relies on your opponent charging headfirst into you like a retard.
>>
Remember that sweet fucking foot sweep Renzo landed on Sakuraba at Metamoris? Where Renzo was smirking when Saku went flying? I'd be way more interested in learning the mechanics of how to do that from an aikido or judo guy than 90% of most bjj meatheads.
>>
>>972788
It's called tsurikkomi ashi I think.
>>
>>972622
Indeed, with Judo it's sufficient that the person is not balancing his center.
>>
It seems to work for Steven seagal
>>
As somebody who's looking at this wesbite as a a pure judoka, and a guy who loves jiu jitsu I'm fucking disgusted.

I hate this shit. What the fuck is with all this wrestling bullshit?
>>
>>975632

You've taken a great western tradition and really, a great martial art and made it into a joke.

You should all be ashamed of your shit.
>>
There's nothing in aikido that's illegal in MMA so why isn't it being used?
>>
>>968183

Show me one person who's had their wrist broken this way.
>>
>>975659
I've had people resist well-applied wristlocks during BJJ. Never broke someone's wrist, but they tend to roll down with a loud yelp. Suffice to say it's just a lot more comfortable to do the fancy looking flip, it'll spare you a very painful wrist.
>>
>>975659
https://youtu.be/aXVRetywLWU?t=6m7s

He's applying Nikkyo principles with the Crocodile Roll. The difference is the nage can't flip/breakfall, so he has to roll to alleviate pressure.
>>
>>975632
Inexperienced admin makes rash decision and fills board with shitposting
>>
>>975632
Japmoot decided to kill /asp/ instead of giving the lycrabronies a containment board like everyone wanted.

Now most of the competent former-/asp/ posters are on /fit/ and /fit/ is mad people are discussing fitness instead of lifting, youtubefags and feels.
>>
>>955273
If TKDbrah posted a video of him fucking a dog it wouldn't be as ridiculed as that .gif of wu

Really, we need to thank him for making our first 100% home grown meme
>>
>>975833
>Crocodile Roll

Gator Roll you fucking faggot.
>>
>>952509
A lot of Aikido uses small joint manipulation, which is illegal in UFC.
>>
>>978967
Well, what about early vale tudo, small joint manipulation was allowed but we still didn't see any aikido in said matches.
>>
>>978967
>A lot of Aikido uses small joint manipulation, which is illegal in UFC.

Which is also useless how they train and use it.
>>
>>978967
False. Wrist, elbow, and shoulder locks are not illegal. "Small joint" is defined in the ufc rules as finger manipulation. The reason aikido fails in mma is that it involves primarily low-percentage throws and locks taught poorly for competitive fighting.
>>
>>978967
Why do you faggots keep spouting this nonsense? Small joint is finger and toe. Everything else is fair game
>>
>>978967
>>979066
>>979137
Don't forget about how you can't hold the gloves of your opponent.

How are you going to wrist lock if you can't hold the guy's (or girl's) hand?

Wrist locks are not allowed.
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