>“I wasn’t that impressed with [the Rumble match]. I thought it was one of the least exciting ones I’ve ever watched. I just didn’t find it very exciting. I found it very predictable. When all of the guys came out and ganged up on Roman Reigns, I knew that he was going to come back out later. It was just so easy to figure out. It was not suspenseful…
>…Even when it got down to the last four guys, I was surprised that they were the four guys. That they would pin the whole hopes of WrestleMania on the hopes of these four guys. Or two of them anyway. I didn’t like the decision that Triple H, surprise, put the belt on himself again. It just seemed like it just showed a real lack of imagination, if you ask me.
>I watched three hours of wrestling last night and I got very little out of it. When it was over, I thought, “That was the worst Royal Rumble I think I’ve ever watched.” Maybe next to the one from a couple of years ago. There was another lousy one. I just really had higher expectations. When I say all of my criticisms, I just want to be honest. I have a lot of respect for the talent… They do good stuff out there. It’s how they are used.”
This thread is gonna be a war.......
I can hear the Montreal Screwjob argument already....
He's right though. Saying it's the worst rumble ever just shows you he didn't watch last years, but Reigns walking to the back instead of continuing the match was retarded, same with the Wyatts punking out Brock. And in the end HHH wins the title in 2016.
I will never understand how any smark can be upset with Bret for constantly bashing the product and bashing certain wrestlers
We fucking do that all the time.....yet he does it and he's a "bitter, salty old man"
And it's not like he's never said anything positive about WWE or other wrestlers.....but people seem to ignore that.....
>Reigns walking to the back instead of continuing the match was retarded
What bothered me most about the whole thing was.
>refuse to leave on gurney
Leaves anyway. Still look like a bitch.
>comes runnning back like the ultimate warrior, no selling the whole beat down.
How do you put all of that effort into making roman look good and Y2J ends up looking stronger just by lasting a lot longer.
They could have done so much easier shit to make roman look strong.
Putting the belt on HHH was the best option that they had. Bret is such a fucking cuck. I'm sure if HHH did an elbow drop off the middle rope as a tribute to Bret his whole outlook would be different. Such a salty, overrated, pussy.
Also there's triple h giving the belt to himself instead of letting a full timer boost their career. Its not like when mcmahon won. Mcmahon just did it to get heat and swerve the fans. Haitch just did it to pad is stats (14 world titles, 7 wrestlemania main events tying the record). Haitch is a greedy narcissist and its gonna get worse when vince leaves.
>Putting the belt on HHH was the best option that they had
>HHH mark is happy that HHH got the belt
Colour me shocked.
Hart said it showed a "lack of imagination", meaning that it was the obvious choice. You're shouting that he was wrong and that HHH getting the belt was the obvious choice. Stop and think about that for a moment.
>best for business...
You think that's really what they care about? People give vince shit for being out of touch and pushing the people he likes, but haitch will turn wwe into a machine with the sole purpose of putting him over when hes in charge.
#1 I am not a Triple H mark you semi-cuck
#2 I never said it wasn't obvious, I just said it was the best choice considering the other options.
#3 You haven't given me a better option because SPOILER ALERT there isn't one, unless you are gonna say keep the strap on Roman, is that what you are saying?
> I am not a Triple H mark
You said that you marked out for HHH winning the belt and used one of his catchphrases when praising the decision to put the belt on him. You're a mark for the guy. It's OK, he's somewhat popular.
>I never said it wasn't obvious
Brilliant retort to the accusation that you said it WAS obvious.
>You haven't given me a better option
I'll type this really slowly. Try to pay attention.
Hart's point was that it was unimaginative.
There were certainly more imaginative possibilities. (You acknowledge this when you say that HHH getting the belt was anything but obvious.)
Whether you like them or not is irrelevant.
I've been watching since the late 80s. Bret and HBK were the best options they had at the time. They were both good in the ring, but just passable in every other respect. Neither of them were huge draws. Big stars like Hogan and Savage were leaving.
It was a bad era, with the steroid scandals, sex scandals, and so on. So Vince chose a succession of guys who kept their noses clean until Austin 3:16 happened. You could say the same of Nash too, except Nash had a better look but was a bit more limited than the flash of HBK or the methodical, submission oriented style Bret worked. And Nash left.
All three of them were a hell of a lot better than Flair though. I think things would have been worse without them. Vince couldn't build the company around any of them at that point, but they probably slowed the bleeding.
Shawn never really became a big thing until DX became a big thing.
Both of them were pure cancer backstage too.
People never look at any of these guys in the context of the time.
You couldn't be more off kid, pic related, and it's not even close.
I'm so confused about the thinking behind it.
If he was "Knocked out" and just got carted off unconscious it would make some kind of sense.
Him getting off the gurney, being able to walk and still deciding he wanted to walk away from the match just made him look like the biggest pussy ever.
I kind of feel like he was just meant to be stretchered off but he's such an idiot he thought refusing to be carried off would make him look good.
Or someone in creative thought a full stretcher job would make him look too weak and made the call without thinking things through.
Walking out under your own power could've worked if he had a visible injury or whatever to get patched up, but it missed hardcore as it was.
I'm pretty sure I just criticized four of the top guys in the New Generation, including Bret. Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike Bret. But he wasn't great either. HBK wasn't great at that point either, that came later. Both did better than Flairs WWF run.
If anyone, I think Stone Cold is the GOAT for rescuing the WWF from its slow slide into irrelevancy. I can remember kids at school that were total wrestling haters jumping on the bandwagon after the 3:16 promo.
I have huge respect for Taker as well. I consider myself a Taker mark at heart.
HBK was always pretty much great dude. Stone cold was nothing special in the ring at all. If you want to crown someone great for those reasons, you may as well crown Mike Tyson.
My thoughts, building on that:
I think Bret was the last great "professional wrestler," while HBK was the first true "sports entertainer." That's part of why I think the Screwjob was such an important watershed in the history of wrestling. It was quite literally the passing of the torch from a professional wrestler and the "old days" to a sports entertainer and the "attitude era"
>Though I think Bret was a bitch for not doing the job he was told to do, and irl, Bret did screw Bret.
Fleihr was a product of the indies. Back then, you'd go to town A, do your woo's and do a figure four, then it was off to town B where you did the same fucking thing and had the same fucking match. When you went national, you couldn't have the same old song and dance every week. I think the Four Horsemen promos were good (for their time), and I think that's the reason the Buddy-Rogers-knockoff was so successful.
But back to the main point: HBK was a sports entertainer. The Attitude Era made him what he was - as anon said. Austin was the engine and two wheels, but DX was the other two wheels (though the post-Shawn DX was even better than the original).
Both literally and figuratively, the Screwjob transitioned into a new era of wrestling, with different things that they delivered - and different things the audience wanted. Vince was right in his famous speech, where he talked about storylines that were insulting to people's intelligence (though the outlandish shit they did was ironically insulting to one's intelligence in its own way). The audience didn't want Bret's mechanics int he ring - it wanted Shawn Michaels crotch chopping. It didn't matter whether HBK, Austin, The Rock, etc. could be a good "professional wrestler." They just had to entertain. Watch The Rock take a stunner, do five backflips, then fly out of the ring - that's not professional wrestling. But it was entertaining as hell, and I loved every minute of it.
31 bro, been watching wrestling for 25+ years. I was in high school during the Monday Night Wars, frankly I know what I'm talking about. Austin did plenty good for the business, but to say he was anything above average in the ring is simply wrong.
and the fucking scaffolding match he did as the Hollywood Blondes (don't think it's Bash at the Beach, but I'm not sure)
That was the best fucking scaffolding match I've ever seen.One of the only ones that was actually done well
Sorry that depresses you, just letting you know what time it is.
Stunning Steve carried that based WarGames match between Heyman's Dangerous Alliance and Sting's Squadron.
By the time he was Stone Cold Biggest Wrestler on the Planet the only thing he really had to do was stunner people, bc that's all people really wanted to see. Knocking him for not being a movez junkie is stereotypical smark autism, completely oblivikous to physiologic
lol this entry level smarkdom is so hilariously wrong
The "casuals" stopped watching after Nitro died because Vince could put on whatever product he wanted, instead of being forced to deliver what the audience wants.
Watch some 2001 Austin matches, he was on a fucking tear.
I've seen interviews where people talk about seeing him as Stunning Steve, and the energy he had in the ring. The way he ran the ropes, and just had a fire inside him. He was never going to be Bob Backlund or Bret Hart - but that's not what people wanted. He was a good wrestler, but that fire and intensity is what made him the greatest of all time.
>technician versus brawler
His matches with Foley were classics. But I agree that his post WM 17 career was hugely disappointing. Even in his good run at the top many of his main events were boring matches against shitty workers like Kane and pre 2004 Undertaker
>Actually thinks workrate is the most important part of pro wrestling greatness.
Look, I've never knocked HBKs ability in the ring. I love his high flying, his superkick is fucking iconic, he can tell a good story, and I even love it when he oversells like a floppy fish. HBK is electrifying in the ring. Bret was good in a slower, more old school kind of way. But he was no HBK.
There are all kinds of guys who can really go in the ring but lack in other areas. Shawn was just a guy who could go in the New Gen era. It was the Attitude Era where he shined in other areas and became truly great.
Austin was never good as HBK in the ring. That doesn't matter. Stone Cold is one of the greatest talkers in the history of the business. That's what brought people in again. He was a compelling character. And that's what matters the most in wrestling.
As for great matches, I don't think anyone has mentioned Austin vs Angle, SummerSlam 2001.
Basically what I said, but I think the most underappreciated person is Vince McMahon. He's made a lot of shit decisions the past decade or more, but the Austin era was great, in part, because of him
The Austin-McMahon feud (born from the Screwjob "Mr. McMahon") was what let Austin shine. Having Vince as a foil let him do the outrageous shit that he did. If he didn't have Vince to stun, to spray beer at, to fill his car with cement, etc., the Austin character would have never gotten AS over as it did
>it still would've been great, but it was even better with McMahon's plots against him, for him to overcome
This was one of the best if not THE best Royal Rumble I have ever seen. Triple H is the undisputed best ever. He fought hard in that match and deserved a win. It just goes to show you that hard work and determination pays off. The only other wrestler that deserved the win as much as based H was Jericho, but his career is sadly coming to a close while HHH is alive and well. This was the best move for the company and the fans.
I'd like to add that that's why Reigns isn't over. It's not his workrate that's the problem. A lot of big stars have been just as limited in what they can do in ring. Reigns isn't over because he's not a compelling character.
That's also the difference between Ambrose today and Ambrose post-Shield. Wacky cartoon Ambrose isn't as over as hell bent on revenge no matter the physical cost Ambrose. Ambrose was white hot. Now he's just warm by comparison. His character is less compelling.
WWE has forgotten that character matters on a scripted TV show.
Cena was white hot with his Thuganomics character, and Cena has never had a massive moveset. Cena gets mixed reactions today because his character, for anyone over the age of ten, isn't compelling anymore.
Character matters, whether it's 1984, 2004, or now.
Cena was a rock-solid wrestler if a bit green during that run.
Watch his debut against Kurt, it's far better than any solo match Reigns has ever had.
People ultimately buy a ticket for the matches. Don't pretend like this isn't true.
If the matches were the biggest part of what mattered to the average fan, WWE wouldn't have had its greatest success doing car-crash TV in the attitude era.
And they certainly wouldn't have been using the PPVs to sell the TV.
I think they "tried" to do that with Reigns.
*He won the Rumble. Everyone booed.
*They thought "hmm, we need to give him a character to play
*They throw stupid shit at him, like Mark Henry
*'Oh wow Roman, I didn't believe at first, but now I do! You're so kawaii!'
....are you kidding me?
The "at least you tried" meme is applicable here. They tried to give Roman a story. But they just failed so epicly hard at it. It seemed so fake and forced - a reaction to them booing him.
I think it was almost as big a failure as "JBL is poopy." Sure, you get what they were trying to do... but it fails so hard that it's tragically hilarious and depressing
>samefagging because I want to add to this:
take The Rock as an example
*comes in as "the blue chipper"
*first third generation wrestler
*supposed to be born to greatness; great college athlete; great guy; biggest face ever
*he debuts, and gets booed out of the arena. We're talking Roman-Reigns-level boos
*he says "fuck all of you fans" and joins The Nation
*supposed to be a heel
*his charisma shines through, and everyone starts cheering the hell out of him
*he turns on The Nation, and goes through other phases, but ultimately becomes The People's Champ - one of the top 5 (or at least top 10) wrestlers ever
WWE tried to force him from the beginning, but it failed. So they capitalized on that by turning him heel and embracing all the boos. It was only after people got to know him (as a follower of Farooq - not a forced star on his own) that people started liking him. Instead of trying to shove Roman down everyone's throats, they need to embrace the negativity, and capitalize on it. The greatest characters have come from embracing a person's real life story and/or personality, and running with it.
tl;dr need to stop forcing Roman, and address the elephant-sized boos in the room
Bret is the 400k champ, but he's 100% right about this.
Anyone who has watched wrestling for more than five minutes saw HHH winning and where they were heading with Roman. (And can tell that Roman was tossed before Ambrose because they didn't want Roman appearing on and 'looking weak' losing on all the highlight reels.)
Straight up: Last years and the year before were more memorable and entertaining because they were clusterfucks. The only reason that people are getting high on this one is because HHH has worked a young generation of the IWC with NXT. They've got their tongues so far up his ass it's unbelievable.
Only an underager that only watched post injury Austin would ever think that, he was a great technician with psychology out the arse. His series of matches with Bret were top notch
You literally can't find a non-kayfabe quote of Bret claiming to be squeaky-clean with no flaws as a person
If cheating on his wife was the worst thing he ever did then he's a goddamn saint compared to Hickenbottom
Even post-injury Austin was clearly great, though.
He was more limited but prior to his injury he was one of the finest technicians and half of what makes a technician great is how they meticulously lay out a match.
It's not like fucking his neck up made him lose his wrestling know-how. He was still a tremendous worker and near unparalleled-general with tippytop psychology.
Having stats only of WWE is useless. It's much more important to see how has won how many championships from different organizations worldwide. Of course only the big name ones. Not the small ass organizations. Like looking at AJ Styles stats is much more impressive.
That predictability is kinda down to dirtsheets though. They did keep HHH off RAW in the lead up. Even though I expected it thought it was good. They saved it by having it go down to HHH/Ambrose instead of HHH/Reigns.
There are so many rumours as to why Owen never got the push. That's one I've never heard.
I've read that HBK refused to put Owen over.
I've read that Stone Cold didn't want to work with Owen anymore after the botched piledriver, and it makes a main event push difficult when the biggest draw in the company won't work with you.
I've also read that Owen simply didn't want to put in the extra time necessary to be that kind of guy, and was content working the midcard. Dude liked having a one to spend with his family, was making just enough bank to save for an early retirement, and made no secret of wanting to leave the business young before he breaks down physically. The guy was notoriously tight with his wallet. He'd crash on random fans couches to avoid paying for hotel rooms.
You think WWE putting the belt on ANY of those guys would be better than HHH for the Road to Wrestlemania? You're out of your mind. If you wanna give those assholes the title do it in September when nobody is watching.
To be fair he never said putting the belt on HHH is obvious, he said it was the best choice given the other options. And because you are not giving a better option, you really have no place to critique his.
>Triple H owns the company so of course he is going to make himself champ!
This is seriously the view of people who don't even watch the product. I know this because I told my trainer that I watched the Royal Rumble and Triple H won and thats what he said. Anybody who agrees with Bret Hart is exposing themselves as a fucking mark, no bones about it.
> more than ambrose
Do you honestly believe this? Not even a deannetty mark but he is consistently and organically over as fuck with the marks and my mark family fucking love him.
Also that interview with Cole the other day proved he is the one they should be pushing
+ Paul was there for the Austin-McMahon era, and setting up a boss-vs-employee angle does have potential. They need some kind of heel for Reigns to go against, and the other heels on the roster are shit. Having a Triple H-Reigns storyline is their only real option for getting him over (or trying to, since it will probably still fail, because Reigns just doesn't have "it")
- Triple H has always been his own biggest mark. Whenever you watch any kayfabe or shoot documentary on him, he and Vince say that he came to WWF, and stayed, because he got to wrestle and perfect his craft. In dubya-C-dubya, he didn't get to wrestle often; he got good money and didn't have to work much, but he saw that as a negative. He's never been about paychecks. I'm sure he loves power
>considering he cheated on Chyna when he started with the boss' daughter
but it's never been a money issue for him. He loves the business, loves being a champion, loves rubbing elbows with Fliehr and Sammartino and everyone else. He loves going out there and performing as the character Triple H.
>Say you went to an actor, and offered him a million bucks to play the lead, or 10 million to have a cameo - which is he going to choose? Paul Levesque is the actor who would rather have a lead with a smaller paycheck, because it enhances his image.
>And it's worked. He didn't get to be The Game, the Cerebral Assassin, the King of Kings, etc., without investing in his persona. And that investment has paid off. If he didn't put so much work into building up his character, and giving it prestige, then he wouldn't be what he is today. He's a mark for himself, but it's made him the heir apparent for Vince's throne.
>because you are not giving a better option, you really have no place to critique his.
My critique was pretty simple. There were other options, but none that would please a HHH mark (because they mean not putting the belt on Trips).
Hart's point was "they should show some imagination and not go with the obvious choice" - that the company should take a risk, because what they have been doing really isn't setting the world on fire. And when you look at the rumble, there was some interesting stuff going on, but not with the finish and not with RR & HHH. So there was the creative talent to come up with something interesting - but the higher-ups chose otherwise.
Now, you probably want to come back with "Like what?" or "Name something!" but I'm not criticising the creative people. I'm saying that they should have been given more room to be creative. Trusting the writers to do something engaging, rather than going back to HHH for an "anyone but Roman" pop, was the alternative option.
I don't like the fact that triple h won and put the belt on himself, but honestly he's the best heel option to hold the belt for wrestlemania. That being said, it speaks volumes about the state of the wwe that the only heel that people could legitimately see holding the title is a part-timer. It is the fault of the wwe for putting itself in this situation by not building any legitimate heels. KO is their top full-time heel right now and he's upper midcard.
This is not WWE 2K or fantasy wrestling. Thins a corporation entering the most important part of the year for their product. If you want o get "creative" go buy some WWE dolls and play with them in your moms basement. They have the long game in mind and they made the right decision.
>HBK in the mid-90s wasn't as bad at overselling as he was in the mid-00s. I think the original HBK sold well (a lot, but not too much where it's just ridiculous).
There are times where original hbk would be thrown from the ring from a basic elbow in the corner.
If I owned any WWE stock I would definitely sell it if anybody on the active roster but HHH won the rumble.
There is a real person (Paul Levesque) and a character they portray on WWE (Triple H). Anyone who has any acting skill whatsoever knows you have to become a character when you're portraying them. Just because Bray Wyatt is a demented cult leader, that doesn't mean Windham Rotunda is like that.
Saying "Paul" did something to enhance "Triple H's" statue means more. You're the fucking marks if you can't distinguish a character's motivations from the actor's.