>>854936 and that's because its better. correct me if i'm wrong but judo is taught in japan's high school but every japanese fighter in MMA gets their ass kicked by american wrestlers and that's because judo sucks in MMA. The tried ad true method to succeed in MMA is BJJ for submission and wrestling for takedowns. Judo might have both but sucks at both compare to BJJ and wrestling.
>>856722 >but I'm guessing that their octagons might be softer than our mats. The floor of the octagon is made so it favors neither striker nor grappler. The mats aren't particularly soft, and they are spring loaded.
>>857597 Holly Holmes had a lot of help though Greg Jackson hired 2 American Olympic Judoka to be her training partners in preparation against Ronda Rousey. So its not the art's fault, the technique is still valid.
Ronda's go to technique of the rolling juji gatame is the go to for a majority of sambo fighters. Its very high percent.
I recommend in investing in Juji Gatame Encyclopedia written by Sambo Master of sport and judo black belt (also close personal friend of Ronda's mom) Steve Scott
424 pages, just cause Ronda's variant was counter doesn't mean she can't modify the technique to make it successful again. Its the nice thing of having a tokui waza (speciality)
So tl;dr you can knock the fighter, but good technique is still good technique.
>>855865 I wasn't implying that. Fedor was so dominant because he was an amazing fighter, not because of judo or sambo specifically. All I'm saying is that there are successful judo fighters and to say "hurr durr judo sucks lol" just because shocker, there's not as many is pretty fucking dumb
Holmes won because she perfectly studied ronda. She was as prepared as you can be and played all her cards at the right time. At the fight you can see how she immediately counters any of ronda's moves with exactly the right movement. And honestly, if she made one tiny mistake at the Hip Throw or at the ground it would have been game over, and Holm knew this very well..
So honestly, if anything Ronda got used too winning easily and she hadn't any strong fighter before who would have forced her to use a differnt strategy. But if there's a rematch my money is on Ronda, not because I like her that much, but because she won't make the same mistake twice and underestimate Holm again.
Until then let's enjoy the shitfest about "Judo doesn't work" and "Ronda is a bad fighter".
It's not like Yoshida kicked Royce Gracie's ass or anything..
>>854934 Wrestling is more effective in MMA because both are done without a gi. If MMA matches would be done with a gi - not sure if that'd be a good idea honestly - and the UFC bothered to recruit from more countries while the IJF removed several moronic rules (including the one prohibiting internationally competing athletes from competing in other sports) you'd see a lot more people crossing over from Judo and Sambo.
>>854943 >put wrestler in gi >see what happens On more than one occasion I've had people who were better wrestlers than I am sigh while their spirits visibly sagged simply because I got a lapel grip on them during gi training. It can shut down considerable parts of their game plan. Basically what I said here really. >>858036
>>855255 You forget all of Eastern Europe, the Caucasus, parts of Central Asia like Iran, Mongolia and others, East Africa, Turkey, India and probably a few more. There's a lot of wrestling traditions out there.
But it's declined massively in Europe over the last century, and has never been big in many other parts of the world, so that's quite true.
>>860544 That depends chief. You can have a penetration step. You can also knee slide in. John Smith was a great example of this. He wore a knee pad specifically to cover more distance by sliding when he shot.
We also call what you are talking about wrestling "Brazilian style".
A good way to do this is to find a good Wing Chun instructor who teaches Wing Chun like Boxing and Muay Thai are generally taught, but better. Then, you can beat people in the cage with Wing Chun, proving to the world that it's not the martial art that wins, but the martial artist.
Except Aikido is too hard to do efficiently a majority of the time for too many people.
>>861022 I will say this as a scrub high school wrestling coach. The Brazilians might not have the pure wrestling pedigree or even clean technique as their American counter part, but what's been incredible with MMA's rulset and forcing evolution has been a majority of Brazlian fighters using the cage walls to supplement and aid their wrestling.
In the most classical scene of technique its sort of really sloppy. But there's good technique, i honestly think that America trumps Brazil in classical wrestling technique, but Brazil has a slight edge in using MMA wrestling or at least using walls to supplement their wrestling technique.
So i think Brazlian style wrestling is actually a positive connotation in terms of MMA, if you're from Nova Uniao, Damian or a bunch of other BJJ black belts who don't have good classic free style wrestling/greco/folk
>>854875 In Ronda's biography she said she spent many many hours on the mats at Hayastan with BJJ guys. She isn't strictly a judo fighter, most judo black belts are like BJJ blue belts on the ground, just like how most BJJ fighters aren't very good standing up
>>862797 and then get tapped out by BJJ blues. I'm always surprise we don't see more BJJ guys just embarass the hell out of judofags at the Olympics, it ticks me off that judo keeps setting rules up to prevent BJJ guys from entering, it reeks of fear and insecurity.
>>862855 you do a judo throw in a fight, you give up your back and get choked out. They're real low percent, and all judofags throw and roll guys off, see a BJJ blue belt would letthe judofag throw him, and then as they fall, choke him out with his own gi.
>>862893 there's a huge reason why BJJ an wrestler are used in UFC more so then judo an its because their moves work better
You might see a fluke judo move but its luck or if you're Ronda Rousey you're fighting shitty women who can't fight. But in the men's division its all the same. You do a wrestling tackley you choke them out.
See most men's UFC fighter do a judo throw, they get stuck on the ground and tapped out.
>>862893 Watched that entire video and counted 17 incidents. I counted 0 that were the result of specific Judo throws. All guard slamming, punching, and illegal wrestling slams. Speaking of which, didn't Judo ban wrestling takdowns like double and single legs? :^)
>>863004 >Read: "I jumped up on him like a retarded koala! He shouldn't be allowed to throw me from there!" Nice strawman
>Ahahahahaha Feel free to address the point
>The difference is, nobody actually agrees with that. Beej babbies will defend their rules until the cows come home. Do you think it matters? You're guilty of what you're up in arms over and regardless of weather you like it or not it's still the reality.
>>863018 Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending bjj's weak techniques and rules regarding slamming. My point is that those guard slams and double leg slams aren't exclusive Judo throws and techniques. You misrepresented that point with "I jumped up on him like a retarded koala! He shouldn't be allowed to throw me from there!" which is a strawman.
Maybe people get turned off of bjj because of the types of posters in this thread? Sure the judo guys here are being defensive, but everyone is always going on about muh bjj so I can see why they would be.
>>862887 As someone who crosstrains in both Judo and BJJ and has been doing both for multiple years: the average BJJ blue belt is (or at least, should be) capable of choking a Judoka black belt when given the time, but they're hardly ever able to do that after a throw. Judo standing game is usually too fast for them to capitalize on it. They're down before they realize what's going on, let alone them being able to find the time to set up a choke.
I'm quite dangerous with chokes myself, and I've won a good deal of Judo matches with chokes to counter botched throws, but applying a choke after a good clean throw is really fucking hard. The only reason I'm able to choke against throws is because I'm used to the fast pace. You blink once and the opportunity is gone.
>>862899 >there's a huge reason why BJJ an wrestler are used in UFC more so then judo an its because their moves work better Something designed to work without a gi works better in an environment without a gi than something done almost exclusively with a gi? I'd have never thought. Same goes for someone spending most of their time of ground fighting being better at ground fighting than someone devoting at most half of their time to it.
Wrestling and BJJ are simply more suitable for MMA because of the larger mutual overlap.
>implying we can't just coexist >implying whole life is a dick contest >implying it's not about how hard you train but about minor differences in styles >implying grappling isn't just grappling after all
>>864958 If you train hard, as well as train efficiently, you get even better than if you were just to train hard and not efficiently. You could cut a steak with a knife, or you could cut it with a spoon. Using the knife is like practicing a good martial art, while using the spoon is like practicing a shit martial art.
>>864997 That's why Wing Chun with modified teaching methods is objectively the best martial art for MMA, American Kickboxing, Muay Thai, and self defense.
How Wing Chun blocks and attacks at the same time, has Western Boxing-like counters, has elbow strikes, grappling, and uses the techniques to make the in-boxing even better is pure genius. There is no better martial art when proper training methods are applied properly.
A judo blackbelt is a LONG LONG LONG way from an Olympic level judoka.
I have rolled with blackbelt judokas who don't put any effort into newaza, and just turtle up and flatten out. They put all of their effort into their throwing game. But at the Olympic level, they are competent everywhere. They don't train stuff like DLR, berimbolos, 50/50, but if the average blue belt went up against a serious international judoka on the ground thinking they are going to steamroll, they are going to get clock choked unconscious.
Please also remember, a blue belt can be a hobbyist. An international level player for judo is an A+ level athlete by definition and will have a huge advantage in strength, coordination, cardio, coachability and mental toughness
tl;dr - if you think your blue belt means you can tap an Olympian out, you are in deep shit
>>872032 ask the local high school wrestling coaches where they go to train outside of their highschool, i mean they know their craft and they just dont train on high school kids, they probably have their own club
>>871747 No, what they did was completely legal in judo (in most cases), because we have a different definition of "slam".
In judo, you aren't allowed to pick someone up off the mat and then throw them back down. In BJJ, you have to "safely deliver your opponent to the ground".
If someone "pulls guard" and they don't even touch the ground, then you're entirely free to daki age them. That's why nobody "pulls guard" like that in judo comps, because it's basically giving your opponent a free ippon.
>>872424 also notice how he can't keep the guy on the ground after he lands it. nigga gets up several times. if that judoka knew some wrestling or bjj he wouldnt have to worry about that.
you know what train 6 months-1 year of each wrestling bjj and judo, then stick to one. or stick to one but learn the other two eventually, just a little. you just need a very basic skill set of each to make full use of it against scrubs or to defend yourself enough from other practioners of those arts avoiding the most basic mistakes.
>also notice how he can't keep the guy on the ground after he lands it.
Don't blame the system for the fighter. Judoka are generally quite good at throwing someone and following immediately with a pin or submission.
Also I think both dudes in the video are grapplers. You see at 0:59 the black dued tries a hip throw (which the white dude counters) and generally he's pretty good at landing and immediately escaping the pins of the other dude. An unexperienced guy wouldn't have excaped that easily.
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