Is this guy the archetype B+ player?
>always played second fiddle to Shawn
>always played second fiddle to Rock/Stone Cold in AE era
>03 title reign almost single handedly killed RAW
>only got in the main event because he was banging the bosses daughter
>never had a great match
>shoehorned himself into two WM Taker matches and still couldn't have a great match
>never drew a dime on his own
Orndorff probably holds the archetype more than Hunter (who, while never a great draw by himself, could actually do decent numbers in the main event).
Like trips, it was kind of the old saying about workhorse wrestlers - if they're your number two, you're golden. If they're your top guy, you're fucked.
>Shame Shane isn't around.
he would do a lot worse, hes never been part of creative he was always focused on the business and money side of the business, not sure where you guys thing he would do any better.
Acting like WWE creative is anything special or something anyone at home couldn't do a better job than them at. Please. Shane was a far more entertaining character than Mr. Mind Game Muscles! who'll just push guys he lifts with. Anything would be better than Vince or him at this point. Plus, it really should be Shane's legacy not some dude banging the bosses daughter.
>best friends leaving for WCW
>comes out for the curtain call
>Shawn too high profile for jobber title
>Vince: Fuck Paul, he's not getting KotR
>Vince: Steve, you're winning the tournament, think of some good shit to say
Attitude era born. Thank you based Kliq (and Hunter in particular).
I heard HHH and Shawn tried to do everything to stop Dwayne Rocks push even when he was the hottest thing in the WWE at the time because they were still pissy that blue chipper Rock beat Hunter Hearst Helmsley for the ic belt when he wasnt even the league that long and also because he was friends with the Harts
Why would I want to thank any of those fuckers? For fucking up and somehow launching the Austin era accidentally? You act like they weren't always out for themselves. They should hardly get credit. Also, Austin's charisma was undeniable. He'd have made it either way, with Triples winning that defunct tournament or not. That shit is laughable.
That Hogan heel turn must see status was never going to last.
It would be harder to pretend Austin wasn't immensely over with that crowd. The timing helped but I don't even think Vince's general overall bad judgement could have denied Austin for long.
Considering that Vince has practically made his M.O. to be denying fans of what they wanted, yes, it's very likely that he would've kept Austin as a JTTS mechanic while forcing Smilin' Rocky Maivia, USA Mark Henry, Hunter Hearst Helmsley and...Marc Mero...down everybody's throats
Here is the greatest B+ player of all time
Was never truly the top guy, only good for getting great matches out of other people, got where he was by making love to the boss just like his buddy triple h and flopped hard whenever he managed to politic himself above his rivals for brief moments
Haitch had plenty of great matches and was totally a draw in the AE and after his shit title reigns, even if he wasn't ever a great top guy. He's better than you're giving him credit for.
>tfw Book didn't go over Haitch at Mania XIX.
>was never truly top guy
He was pre back injury, but I prefered him after. B+ Michaels is best Michaels.
Fact: Bret only got over because of his match with Shawn at WM12. Bret could only draw in Canada that's why Vince was happy to let him go. Then he went to WCW and couldn't draw a dime leading to them losing the MNW. HBK had a GOAT second run from 02 whilst Bret was crying about his little headache.
tldr: HBK > Bret
>Fact: Bret only got over because of his match with Shawn at WM12.
>Implying Mania X and Bret's buildup with the IC title didn't happen.
why is it on /asp/ "This guy doesn't draw" is the only way to say "I personally don't like them"
You most definitely weren't sentient if you truly believe Shawn was never the guy.
You're just shitposting like the shit eating Brit that you are.
Company got better when that Canadian fag left the company. The ratings prove it.
>Shawn's best matches:
Literally every single WM match he has ever had and tons of RAW classics
>Bret's best matches
1. That one time he got cucked by Shawn and Vince in Canada
2. Austin putting him over by passing out at WM 13.
3. Goldberg ending his career.
Don't forget Bret literally killed WCW after Vince told him where to go
>leaving at the end of 97 right before the most successful period in WWE history
>jumping over to the company that was winning and end up losing coz you can't draw a dime
The state of Bret he was probably glad he got booted in the head so he forgot it all
>Haitch had plenty of great matches
He's had good matches, nothing "great". He's main evented wrestlemania 6 times and the only match that's worth a damn is the triple threat with Shawn and Benoit. Everything else either sucked really badly or was just mediocre.
He is the definition of B+.
>the Kliq should hardly get credit for Attitude Era
You are literally a fucking retard. It has been stated many times for 20 years that the Kliq had a big part in what would become the Attitude Era and MNW in general, and it has been stated just as many times that Austin 3:16 would've never become a catchphrase if it wasn't for Trips getting screwed out of KotR.
>It has been stated many times for 20 years that the Kliq had a big part in what would become the Attitude Era and MNW in general
Yes because they release a new Kliq special every few months in an attempt to force their version of history down the throats of newfags who have nothing better to do than watch the network to see what they missed out on 20 years ago
>second fiddle to Cena
>Never won clean against real opponents like Ambrose or Cena.
>Always losing on Raw
Bret vs Owen
Bret vs 123 kid
Bret vs Bulldog
Bret vs Mr Perfect
Bret vs Benoit
Bret vs Austin x3
Bret vs Diesel x 2
Bret vs Shawn when Bret carried him hard
Bret vs anyone, he had the best match of the night no matter who he was against
Bret had better matches than Shawn against everyone until his career was cut short robbing us all of that last GOAT run
If you have been watching for 30 years then why do you have the opinion of a 13 year old dvd mark?
But the same happened when Shawn left.
That's almost an exact thing I heard Bret say in an interview. one man's opinion is not universal truth. Even out of H's Mania matches you'e got
>All three Undertaker Matches
>Vs Cena at WM 22
>Vs Bryan at WM XXX
>Vs Jericho at X8 (It shouldn't have gone last, but great nonetheless)
and besides those there's
>Vs Michaels at Summerslam '02
>Vs Foley at RR 2000
>Vs Foley at No Way Out 2000
>Vs Austin at No Way Out '01
>Vs The Rock at Summerslam '98
>w/ Austin vs Jericho & Benoit on Raw when he broke his quad
just off the top off of my head.
He did at MITB, They kept Ambrose looking strong with both of them grabbing the belt, but there were no shenanigans. Seth beat the fuck out of him and got the belt on his own.
Based on his promos and PPV matches, Seth's reign was GOAT. the problem was lsing like every week on Raw. WWE booked Seth like a champ when he held the briefcase, but fucked up after the cash in.
I made sure to bring up his main event matches to prove that only 1 of those was good. If you've been in the company for 20+ years you'd better have at least have a handful of decent matches. Also the Jericho match was mediocre.
>H vs HBK vs Cena at SS '09
>H vs Edge vs Jeff Hardy, Armageddon '08
>DX vs Legacy at Breaking point 2009
He has plenty of other decent to great matches around this time. besides, when they happened doesn't matter. I like Haitch and I'll admit he was shit 2006, 2007 and every time held the title in 2008 and 2009. So what, even the best wrestlers have shit parts of their career. It doesn't mean the good stuff never happened.
To be honest, Taker was the greatest B+ champion.
>Second fiddle to Hulkster in the Hulkamania era.
>Second fiddle to Warrior after the passing of the torch.
>Second fiddle to Bret during the lean years.
>Second fiddle to Austin during the attitude era.
>Second fiddle to Rock and Lesnar during ruthless aggression.
>By the time of Cena and Punk, he was on the way out. Only given the World heavyweight title instead of the WWE title.
>All of his title reigns were short as shit.
>Wouldn't be allowed to cleanly beat top dogs so always needed help from people like Vince or Flair.
>Jobbed to the likes of Mankind, Kane, Warrior, Heidenreich, MAVEN, and Rey Mysterio.
>No one of significance part of the streak until LATE in the run, and NEVER the top dog until Lesnar who broke it.
>His only good mic skills were during the Ministry days. Otherwise he was either silent or had Bearer to talk. His Bikertaker promos were shit.
>Got decent matches off of lightweights he could lift easily, or cage matches. Matches against brawlers or giants tended to be bad.
>Despite being the longest tenured wrestler in the WWE and one of the top draws of the company, will never be described as THE man.
I think Taker since 2007 has been on a whole other level, beyond B+ and even beyond main eventers at times. I started watching as a kid back in '07 (luckily post-Khali fued.) and I hardly remember him losing. That rumble he won is one of my favorites. He just always looked like a monster throughout his title reigns on Smackdown. Anyone who stood the slightest chance against him looked awesome. Rey going over him that one time was alright, cause he was injured.
Instead of answering OP's question directly, I'll list the only wrestlers on WWE's current roster that can draw at all.
that's it. as much as i love Rollins and Cesaro, they don't draw. Rollins is a ratings killer. Daniel Bryan and CM Punk should've never made it past holding the IC or US belts. most of the roster should be let go or retire. smarks don't like it, but it's the truth. if WWE wants to do big ratings again, they need to turn a blind eye to steroids again and get some big guys in there. They also need to stop the scripted promos. And the same basic principal can be applied to the divas. A women's match should never be more than 5 minutes long. Ever. Divas should be like Eva Marie, Trish Stratus, Torrie Wilson, etc. - fitness models with toned bodies, decently pretty faces and big fake titties. Women in wrestling don't draw. They never have and they never will. Give casuals a reason to tune in.
Shane may have "forced his way" into matches, but damn, the kid was willing to do anything. He could have just sat back in a comfy office, but instead, he was taking 20' bumps off the Titantron.
Supposedly, out of all the McMahon's not named Vince, Shane was the one with by far the most respect backstage precisely because he went out there, sold like a motherfucker and took stupid bumps to put people over.
Probably helped by the fact he wasn't involved with the booking team, so he never pissed anyone off by pushing someone else.
All this. Plus all the years he put in "off-stage", setting up the ring, being a referee(Vince used to be "just one of the announcers" before they acknowledged him as owner), etc. For all the younger wrestlers, they could relate to Shane. Stephanie on the other hand, was pretty much Mary Sue from day one, and prior to her on-screen appearances mostly featured as "t-shirt girl" in their magazines.
Fuck, I always get mad when I think about how little they actually tried to us him. His Scisso-...Axe Kick looked awesome, he had one of those tall lean body types, and he was the FIVE TIME! FIVE TIME! FIVE TIME! FIVE TIME! FIVE TIME DUBBUA CEE DUBBUA CHAMPION!
NOW CAN YOU DIG THAT, SUCKA'S!!!!!!
They'll never risk the backlash of "legalising" steroid use backstage for as long as the product appeals to kids. You can pirate the shows, you can stream the PPVs, hell, you can even get pirated DVDs, e-books, mp3s, etc, and the damage is minimal* compared to the mighty Mattel marketing machine(and their in-house t-shirts and other memorabilia like belts and shit)
*I have no proof of the actual value of damages, but it's a lot harder/more expensive to pirate the physical shit than it is the media.
Jeff hardy would be great if he wasn't such a fucking walking disaster
>Tfw brother watches TNA
"Hey anon did you hear what happened with Jeff Hardy recently"
>Again, what now?"
>He crashed his ATV while high
I don't know if he was high, but he got the worst leg injury of his career while the Hardys were tag team champs in TNA.
>the fucking state of Jeff Hardy
I just assumed, I used to watch TNA with him untill the Motor City Machine Guns left and the X-divison became pointless
>that sting victory road is still one of the funniest fucking things in the world to me
It's threads like this that make me think a lot of you can't separate kayfabe from reality.
To say HHH never had a great match or drew a dime is pure delusion. His 03 title reign had nothing to do with the fact that people were moving on from wrestling after the monday night wars ended and WWE collectively fucked up the invasion.
HHH is a great in this business, a key player during an exciting era in wrestling who had many great matches.
Macho man was a cuck, A- at the very best only because of his cultural icon status
I'm waiting for Vince to have a medical episode where he can't do shit but sit in a hospital room and watch the wwe network so that HHH and Steph can run damage control and send Reigns back to NXT, I'm not gonna shit on Reigns but he needs to hone his acting ability and improve his skills
Like him or not HHH is one of the greatest of all time, he knows both sides of the company, NXT was his idea and its a smash hit all over mans got an eye for talent, the Kliq changed history with the curtain call, Vince has no idea how to run things anymore he too old and this RR is gonna be bad, Roman dosent have the draw to over com this the crowd will be worse than last year, Raw has been shit in the last 16 years, vince refuses to push new talent and is to scared to give them freedom for their characters, and michaell cole needs to die
A female wrestler can still be toned with a pretty face and put out decent to great matches.
If properly booked as a mega-heel, Asuka can have bork lensar levels of draw.
>Asuka can have bork lesnar levels of draw.
maybe to the japan and IWC crowds, but for the marks I dont see it, promos will be needed, her evil smile character could work. If she was taller and bigger it would be what your talking about. If nia jax gets better in the ring she could be brock level threat with her physical stature.
> Asuka can have brock lesnar levels of draw
Hopefully this is b8
If it isnt then benoit yourself
>the Kliq changed history with the curtain call
>I'm a huge faggot who gets all his info from HHH DVDs
All the curtain call showed was how unprofessional haitch was to break character so he could suck up to his fag buddies
>implying they care about what marks think
not the guy you're complaining about, but you seemed to have left out the first part of the sentence:
>if properly booked as a mega-heel
That's pretty critical to the reading comprehension, it's an understandable mistake when an underage person like you is on an 18+ board.
Triple H has had many great matches
>HHH vs The Rock Summerslam 98
>HHH vs HBK Summerslam 02
>HHH vs Jericho Fully Loaded 00
>HHH vs Batista Vengeance 05
>HHH vs Cactus Jack No Way Out 00
>HHH vs Undertaker Wrestlemania 27 and 28
>HHH vs Cactus Jack Royal Rumble 00
>WM 20 Triple Threat
>HHH vs Austin No Way Out 2001
>HHH vs Cena vs HBK Survivor Series 09
>HHH vs Flair Survivor Series 2005
>HHH vs The Rock Judgement Day 2000 and Backlash 2000
>Power Trip vs Jericho & Benoit RAW 2001
Everyone knows Haitch was just fighting Shawn in that match, even doing a mock Muta-lock at one point. Subsequently, Haitch got an arm cramp and tapped out. I don't know why they didn't award the title to Shawn after that. Maybe he was knocked out or something.
Never the top guy
Shit mic skills
Always out of shape
Couldn't draw flies if he was dog shit
Always buried talent at WM
He has the WOAT entrance, lights turn off then slow melodic music plays as he takes one hour to get to the steps, it literally puts you to sleep
His finisher is terrible, his oppenent willingly wraps his arms around his body as his face is in his ball sack..
Taker can't cut a promo and can't act in segments which is why he's always "dead" until the PPV, average moveset that even guys on Tough Enough can do..
Taker is B+ Godtier
*guffaws heartily at your post*
yes! well meme'd fellow smark sir! i tip my fedora to thee.
People have been sick of HHH since Evolution. After the AE when all the stars that were legitimately better than him and had more sway with Vince left, he was free to lord it over RAW with his droning 30 minute long opening promos and endless title reigns.
I'll have to take your word for it, that was in the period where I completely gave up on the product, like a lot of people did. only coming back when based Punk started making headlines.
Mostly that he got healthy, lost all the roidmass 'cause of the Wellness Policy and started putting over guys
Also got respect from the Chicago crowd due to FUCK CENA sentiments being at their peak
You said the late 00s, those were the early-mid 00s, and during that period he was hated for fucking over RAW by making himself front and centre all the time, burying fuckers left right and centre. Those 3 Wrestlemania Events were the exceptions.
Thats slightly better, but HHH's idea of putting someone over is generally booking himself in the first and last segments of every RAW, promos where he talks about how great he is and genuinely tries to shit on his face opponent, he will then beat the shit out of said face countless times often with a sledgehammer and even BEAT HIM CLEAN at least once, before maybe sometimes losing a single match, always meant to be seen as a major upset after "The Asskicker" standing tall for the rest of the feud.
I mean I had stopped watching due to above shit by the time Jeff Hardy came back, but was that more or less how their feud went?