Historical European Martial Arts Thread
Please keep it kind and on topic. Also no SCA/Reenactment please.
-I found this video, which could count as a videotutorial. What do you think? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MZ-dCpM2E
About treatises about Destreza, I think there was one written in French...but yeah, most of them remain written in Old Spanish. Maybe we the spaniards should do an effort and try to translate them.
>What do you think?
Those are flow drills for montante, it's nice but I wouldn't call it a tutorial. Here for example is a tutorial for the Blogna school of the side sword: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4C07dP8_hE
>I don't know much about HEMA but ive always wondered how far will a little grappling get you in winning a match
Yes and no, grappling or Ringen is the basis of many weapons bases HEMA's, but since you have a weapon as a force multiplier it makes more sense to use that. In certain situations, for example when you close the distance in longsword, it is mighty good to have a few grappling moves in petto, you just can go into Ringen and slam your opponent. So grappling is an important part of the game, but not the game itself.
Back when there were these large sword fighting schools, how typical were accidents and injuries? Are there any accounts of things like this?
I imagine even training with wasters could get dangerous.
>and so they're falling back to their most-drilled techniques.
Thats why it pays to hard drill different techniques. If the repertoire of techniques you can pull under stress is broader than the other guys you usually win.
a decent distant probably depending on the style of grappling. You'd probably have to recalibrate a lot but once you did it would serve you pretty well. The only thing is that in competition hema if you aren't able to score quickly with grappling it may not work out as well.
Thats nice. I am looking forward for more tutorials centered around biomechanics.
Speaking about grappling, which are in your opinion the most effective modern grappling martial arts? Or the most suitable for grappling in HEMA? A friend of mine mentioned that, for example, there was a German treaty dated from the XII century that contained grappling techniques similar to those used in Aikido. I am interested in grappling, but since we are centered in Destreza things like Ringen are not practiced, so I was searching for a similar martial art that could supply that lack
If you look simply for grappling Fabian von Auerswald is likely your best bet, it really just looks like Judo. That would be 16th century, afaik thee are no 12th century manuals, Master Ott would be earliest.
Italian schools, have lots of grappling (and more nasty stuff that looks more like dirty Jujutsu) that is optimized for Rapier use.
So, do you think it is a good idea to go for Judo, and then using Judo as a basis for learning the European grappling styles? And what about Aikido? My instructor did Aikido some years ago, maybe thats why I am thinking about it.
Anyone have experience with these or know someone who does?
I love the aesthetic and they seem to have some pretty nice spec-wise. I'm curious as to how they flex, though. The group I'm looking to join in on is pretty strict on flexibility and safety so a good bend is a must.
Yes I do, got one myself and my club also owns several. I'd say they are the finest Feders out there, perfectly balanced, aesthetically pleasing. For the Flex, they are on the harder end for what is allowed for a Feder, but they are well within the regulations of the Polish HEMA association ( http://feder.org.pl/images/pdfs/rules_longsword.pdf check point 4).
They are a mainstay on many FC tournaments like Swordfish or SMDF. Some people don't like it because of that and call it Polish Painstick, in my opinion this is BS, I couldn't note a difference in getting hit with an Ensifer or a Regenyei Feder.
I use similar swords in my trainings and I do not note anything bad about them. About flexing, they do, but only if you push them to the floor.
So as >>523893 said, they actually are pretty thick, and if you like them you should purchase them.
Also wtf is Polish Painstick, I do not note anything weird when I am hit with one of those swords.
Sports Fencing fag here, interested in HEMA. Could you guys link me to good HEMA rapier bouts? I want to see the overlap of fencing and HEMA. A video of an experienced fencer trying out HEMA would be good too. The ones I keep on finding in YouTube are pretty amateurish and ugly.
As long as you fence with Rapier only, the overlap with sports fencing is pretty big, especially in Italian school, Spanish school has a distinctively different footwork and when you start using a main gauche, things get hairy.
Rapier is too point-heavy to parry-riposte (although it's just as fast moving forwards in a thrust or a lunge). For that reason the treatises tend to recommend displacing your opponent's blade with the thrust, like a glide/graze/coule, or disengagement/feint disengagement.
Because the weapon is heavier and you really wouldn't have wanted to be stabbed in the face, guard positions tend to be more backweighted, with the weight of the sword being taken through the hips. Less distance is covered in the lunge by the feet, but the body leans forwards so the same overall distance is traveled by the sword. Of course, some treatises recommend different postures.
For a single rapier, it'll feel most like retard-epee, where you're unable to perform the actions that you're used to. With a companion weapon (offhand dagger, buckler etc.), you're in for a world of hurt. I dabble in it every month or so, and after a year I'm still not used to passing footwork in rapier, or efficiently parrying with my offhand.
For sources, the First Book of Giganti is a clear and concise primer, available in dead tree format. (The second book is 'Lulz, I train Spanish knights to fight the Saracens in C16th Italy. No, what do you do when you're attacked by seven whores armed with spears, and you only have your hat?).
I have my own quandary /asp/. Some years ago I was involved in a HEMA club. I moved to a different city, but I'm still part of their facebook group. Lately, the local McDojo runner has gotten interested in HEMA, and every five minutes is posting in their group 'Have we thought about kids classes?'. 'We need a bigger internet presence!', 'Do we have a YouTube account, we need more PR!', 'What's our grading structure?' etc. etc.
I've known the guy for a while. Kiddie TKD, bouncer, the usual. Should I get involved, or should I leave the club to tell him to fuck off/get co-opted as it will?
It's in the video description... that's what I get for using the "embed" feature.
>Música: "Strike the viol" del disco "Music for a While" de L´arpeggiata.
>Music: "Strike the viol" from the album "Music for a While" from L'arpeggiata.
I want to know your opinion. Do you guys think the Knight Shop hema gloves are safe for feder sparring? They seem to be way cheaper than the next option on the market.
A friend did a tournament with them two weeks ago.
They held up, but there were already bits of torn leather and marks. A hard hit on the fingers hurts as well, and that was just testing.
Fine for sparring, I guess.
Imho no, they are not fit for competitive sparring. They wont hold up a direct hit on the fingertips, broken bones guranteed. You'd need to combine them with Dutch knuckles/ SPES fingertips to be on the safe side.
For full force Feder sparring there is only very few models really suitable, the Polish Sparring gloves, Absolute Force and Black Lance iirc.
>the Polish Sparring gloves,
I don't know why these are held in such high regard. A decent hit on the fingers will crush them, the wrist protection is a joke, and the only worthwhile protection is directly on the first knuckles. I've had them for over a year and I'm not impressed. SPES's heavy gloves seem to be way better, but my group (Phoenix Society of Historical Swordsmanship) is working on producing our own glove for the market.
The early models needed better protection on the metacarpal/carpal bones of the thumb. But otherwise I haven't had any problems with my pair. They were the first gloves that you could trust for feder fencing against an unknown opponent. On the other hand the sizing is really important (which is part of the reason that the Absolute Force ones suck so much).
Sauce: Poland, Sweden, Slovakia.
Alright, coming from the other direction, can you guys recommend a producer of steel mitten gauntlets that are priced well? I understand that you have to pad steel gauntlets very well, or else they achieve nothing.
The experience of hundreds of HEMA practitioners and thousands of tournament fights contracts your point. While not perfect they are still the best for the job, that is reducing hand injuries. SPES is ok, but the movement is more restricted.
Steel gauntlets are not recommended, they are another source of danger while not improving the safety. thats why the fell out of fashion in HEMA a couple years ago.
There is finally HEMA at the island I live on.
I'm so hyped.
The retarded administration of the Uni it's based at didn't allow the club at first because they claimed it was too similar to the kendo, fencing, and traditional Chinese martial arts club.
I wish I was joking.
Most aikido schools tend not to have live sparring. Because of this, their practitioners don't really get a gauge on what techniques will work consistently on a resisting opponent. They don't get to develop their own uniqie style of grappling which is based around their most consistent, reliable and most developed techniques.
This is opppsed to bjj which is heavy on live sparring causing it's practitioners to filter the large amount of techniques down to the one which they have success with. Ultimately they will be better developed as they have to put their technique up against resisting opponents.
TL;DR aikido doesn't spar/grapple enough leading to unrealistic expectations on what techniques are actually useful
So as far as I'm aware, my shitty third world country lacks any HEMA clubs. How do I learn on my own, from scratch having only watched some Matt Easton and Dierk Hagedorn videos? I am primarily interested in longsword fencing perhaps looking at harnesses later on.
Not as a first martial art and not without some buddies for a training group. It pays to have some sort of martial arts a background if you need to start from scratch without any formal training available. Then it is still hard but not unheard of.
HEMA is historical European Martial Arts, an international movement for the recreation of those lost martial arts of Europe described in various manuals. Everything from historic folk wrestling to bayonet fencing is fair, cutoff time is around 1900. Common practice is the studying of manuals, peer reviews of findings and the sport orientated character of the training. Dress up is uncommon and it is really about the martial arts and the tools of trade.
SCA is the Society for Creative Anachronism, a movement of people who tries to recreate parts of the medieval culture they think positive of, full dress up, fictive society with different kingdoms, and hence some could argue it is a giant LARP. Fighting in fantasy or period gear is part of SCA, historic accuracy not necessarily. It is more about having a really good time with like minded people in your favorite fantasy setup.
Since we would like to have a thread to discuss stuff that is HEMA relevant and also always had a huge shitpost festival every time SCA was mentioned they are kindly asked to keep the SCA stuff to SCA threads and away from this one.
HEMA is reconstructing traditional fencing from period manuals.
SCA is LARPing. they might study HEMA to use in the SCA, but their combat rules are still LARPing.
for example: if you get hit in the leg you have to roleplay that injury, kneeling down or hopping around on one foot.
>they might study HEMA to use in the SCA,
Got to be careful about that, a guy at a LARP instinctively responded to an orc attacking him with a thrust, the sword broke and the core penetrated the guys costume. Had to go to the first aid tent.
>for example: if you get hit in the leg you have to roleplay that injury, kneeling down or hopping around on one foot.
Oh, I've seen that thing before in a longsword tournament. It was pretty ridiculous. In one match, both guys were in in a leg, and they had to have a final bout while sitting on their butts and not moving.
Guys HEMA looks really cool but I'm seriously afraid of having to hang out with super autistic dorks. A little nerdiness is fine and expected but how prevalent is serious autism in this sport?
Because it's about the martial art, not dressing up. If you used period clothing then you wouldn't be able to execute the historical techniques with full intent, because you'd hurt each other. Swords were not intended to be used on armour, in any case. Things like half sword in etc were taught as an extra tool if all you had handy was a sword. Also fencing masks and padded jackets/gambesons ARE historical. The fencing mask was developed for bayonet fencing.
How much sparring is there in HEMA practice, or would you say it's something that varies a lot between clubs?
It depends. Most groups separate drilling/lessons from sparring, so say 1 hour of drilling/learning new techniques and 2 hour of sparring. Sometimes the sparring session will focus on applying the specific techniques learned in the lesson. Some groups never spar, and some groups only spar and never study the sources. I think they're both equally poor extremes.
I had a chance to handle one of the Pentti longsword simulators the other day, and honestly it seemed to be dangerous as fuck.
With feders, the greatest danger is a broken blade. There isn't much danger of concussing someone with a feder, because there just isn't much mass in the blade. The Pentti really felt like a bat when I held it. There's still a fair bit of mass in the foible, and I really worry about full speed sparring with those things, even with a ton of protective equipment. I think concussions are a reasonable concern.
neat stuff. I wonder if a background in kendo would help since some of the striking/parrying is the same and the weight of the doublehanded sword is probably comparable. (ignoring the 'intention' aspect of kendo that is required to score points)
Does the sparring aspect of this stuff chase away the weirdo brigade? I'd be interested in training, but I find that anything weapons related brings autists out of the woodwork, and my hatred for the socially inept outweighs my love of fighting.
Any HEMA places in Ontario I can check out?
Any fiore students here? I have a real beginner's question.
I can't tell the difference between Porta di Ferro mezana and Dente di Zenghiaro mezana. Illustrations are not doing a good job of differentiating them for me. The swords seem to be in a very similar position.
Yes it does, but only in good clubs, sparring means hurt, hard training, getting physical, and most important, talking shit won't help you, so the wannabes quit fast. However, this only happens in good clubs, you usually can tell the difference just by looking at the warm up routine.
Not an expert in Italian school, but afaiu in Porta di ferro the your point is more elongated, you threaten more and cover less, it is a more offensive guard, while with the boars tooth you got the blade closer to your body and have a more defensive guard. I could be wrong, my knowledge on the Italian school is limited.
Here, have some good fun, swedish style.
there's no Hema groups within 100 miles of me, is there any sort of online resource I can use to learn it?
or am I going to just have to look at Talhoffer's sparring plates and wing it?
Tough luck then.
You will need some buddies who train with you, preferably with some combat sport /fencing background. Then instructional DVD's (like Agilitas TV), a modern HEMA book in hard-copy to understand the basics and tons of print outs from wiktenauer.com. And of course some training gear, Gloves and Masks are most important, swords come later. Sometimes you should visit a nearby group or attend an event every now and thenand have your technique checked.
In fact, you will have to start your own group.
Stay the fuck away from Talhoffer, some of his early stuff is ok, then he just needed more money and wrote useless stuff. If you want to start with clear Lichtenauer, go for the von Danzig book (or Goliath), if you want Marx Brothers (no joke, thats their name) go for Joachim Meyer.
People have learned to play instruments, speak languages, and work with industrial equipment by learning on their own. Why is swinging a fake sword any different? If you have some self discipline and truly study the footwork and techniques, you could very well likely become pretty adept.
You could learn the absolute basics.
For everything else, unlike instruments, it's a two-player game. You need to be able to bind with another sword for many of the techniques to even make any sense, let alone be good at them.
Fencing isn't just handling your sword, it's also about handling your opponent. It's not a fight if it's just you there (unless you're in need of an extended stay on the funny farm), but you can play an instrument, or speak, or operate a forklift on your own.
So trying to learn swordsmanship on your own isn't just missing out the assistance of an instructor or training partner, it's missing out on half the stuff necessary for the task you're trying to become proficient at.
Thank you for the level headed answer, I want to get into this mainly to put a fun flair on my workout routine and to bolster my interest in European history. Without an official group near by I realize I can only turn this into something I do in the backyard
As long as this historical fencing isn't too bogged down on rules like sport fencing is. Kendo, SCA, and modern fencing is too far removed from it source and too limited by regulations and constraints to have ever appealed to me.
well there's a difference between rules that are made to prevent injury, and rules that turn what should be a nod to sword fighting into a pretend play sport. Fencing and Kendo are both similar in this in that they restrict you to stuff like fighting on a small line.
Enough of this longsword nonsense...
I'm looking to bolster muh sidesword/rapier library.
Thus far I've got a whole bunch of pdf's (based Ilka, Hicks, Hroarr and Van Noort), however I can't find a solid copy of Agrippa, nor Giganti.
What I've got so far:
Anyone else you suggest? Lincour?
ARMA is pretty unrelevant outide of the US, so Europeans usually don't care, the only ARMA in Europe is ARMA Poland and they split from Clements group years ago.
For Clements, he is even by HEMA standards a bit "excentric", plus his group sells common knowledge as super secret techniques etc. Seems like they where top notch 10 years ago, but when you isolize yourself from the HEMA community you lose track fast. They are still a big group, but shunned by everybody else.
>[spoiler]This is the Image problem HEMA has[/spoiler]
I don't think so, most people have never even heard of HEMA. And most pictures of HEMA you can find show fairly normal or athletic people.
Yes you can, but only if you train intensify, 2-3 times a week and maybe add some cardio to that. HEMA training gives shoulders chiseled from stone, and you get a pretty good anaerobic fitness from sparring.
Most important thing is, if you really like HEMA you are happy every time you can go to practice and hence train a lot more than you would just for getting into shape.
We use those in the introductory courses and they're really not a problem, aside from how flexible they are. I've been hit in the head full force with a mask on and it wasn't bad. But then again I'm not a puss.
I'm actually also a beginner. From what I understand though in boar's tooth you should be more forward-weighted, the blade should be pointed a bit more out, and your hands should be in front of your left hip instead of centered in front of you.
I'm sure someone will chime in eventually and say just how wrong I am.
>There isn't much danger of concussing someone with a feder, because there just isn't much mass in the blade.
The guy is fat, but what he shows in his videos seems to be totally okay.
All I see are very basic techniques.
Nothing that would put me off.
I'd give him a 6/10 on first impression
What? A good Feder weighs about 1200 gramm.
A good waster weighs just as much.
Concussion never is a problem if people wear their head protection.
Broken Fingers are.
ITT: Fat autists circlejerk over their brand of fake swordfighting.
Face it, you guys are just another brand of LARP, except instead of having fun you jack off to books from 17th century italy while stroking your neckbeards.
Yeah I didn't think you had any counterpoints either
>Here, have some good fun, swedish style.
>What are you interested in longsword?
If you mean why, I just like that type of sword more than rapier or sabre.
>Are you rather sparring orientated?
Been out of MA in general for a while so not entirely sure. Lots of places seem 50/50 warming up/drilling and sparring which seems fine.
Little bit of military sabre drill but otherwise no, just going on what I find the most interesting. Lots of places alternate or do several at once so that may change once I try them, who knows.
He just has absolutely no idea how to move, and all of his techniques are completely nonsensical.
If you can't see what's wrong with this technique (even if you don't do sword&buckler), you need to train more.
>Shows a technique where he basically guides the other guy's sword into a perfect path for stabbing him in the head/throat
>Tries to defend his "techniques" in the comments
>"BUCKLERS ARE ONLY FOR GUARDING THE SWORD HAND, THEY'RE LIKE A TYPE OF GAUNTLET"
I want to watch this lardass get beat up.
Here's a positive review of a book which I guess could be suitable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSffQg1M0a4
Haven't read it myself though, so heck knows. And don't be shy about hitting the "real" books pretty much form the start (Danzig, Ringeck, Meyer). They're not that cryptic, and if you do get stuck there, well, at worst you've scratched your head a bit.
I'd imagine that'd depend largely on how much of the Spanish stock is left in there, and how easily it an be distilled out, so your first task is to find someone well versed in both to ask about that.
Otherwise if you find a line with a solid tradition going back to the times when people were using those skills to murder each other you could perhaps dare to borrow in some of the stuff that are almost completely blank spots in HEMA (less technique, more mental conditioning for putting your life on the line I suspect). Then again, perhaps simply looking harder at the historical material could fill in those spots as well, in which case time and effort would definitely be better spent there.
I wish people would not be contrarian and over react to how popular swords are in fiction. I keep seeing absurd posts that go so far as to claim swords are 'useless' in warfare and that people only learned their use for sport.
>Are they the core works, or are there others that should be branched out to.
It depends on what school you're planning on studying. In the Fiore tradition, people tend to base the heart of their curriculum on the Getty manuscript of Flower of Battle, possibly supplemented with a little bit of Philipo Vadi.
I'm no expert on the Lichtenauer tradition. I know people talk about Hans Talhoffer a lot, but I get the impression that hema clubs mostly base their curriculum on Meyer.
There's also a Bolognese tradition of fencing, and some people are doing George Silver's stuff too.
Feel free to drop me a message at Fechtguy at gmail dawt com.
For Longsword there's two main documented systems - that of Fiore dei Liberi from C15th Italy, and that of Johannes Lichtenauer, from C15th-C17th Holy Roman Empire. Fiore has pretty pictures but pretty little content, Lichtenauer has dozens of contradictory sources and glosses from different times and contexts. In my experience the source doesn't matter as much as the quality of the coaching.
In London you're pretty much spoilt for choice, having one of the highest concentration of clubs in the world. http://www.communitywalk.com/european_martial_arts_group_finder_the_british_isles/map/942724 is the UK Group Finder, but it might be slightly out of date.
>Which is considered more effective?
Unless we start killing each others in a civilized manner again we will never know for sure. In longsword sparring however the German tradition wins hands down, especially the later Marxbrüder stuff (Meyer & Co) which does not come as a surprise since sparring was one of their goals.
Fiore has a lot of interesting stuff like Abrazzare and dagger fighting where it is on par.
>Which is considered more effective?
This is going to invite controversy, but I'll try to share my thoughts in as inoffensive a way as possible.
Fiore curriculum tends to be front-loaded. If you're practicing Fiore you're going to be working almost entirely off of 15th century sources. In Fiore there's a lot of emphasis on explaining some underlying logic of combat. You can learn Fiore just to do Longsword stuff, but that's a pruned version of the school. Armored combat, pollaxes, daggers and shortplays aren't appendicies to fiore, they're core curricula. In my opinion, fiore teaches unarmored longsword so that students understand some basics of distance and tempo before they start learning armored combat.
Now for Liechtenauer. The german school of fencing is as old as the Fiore tradition, but the texts are spread out over a longer time period. Today, Liechtenauer students tend to focus on 16th century fight manuals. These manuals outline a very effective unarmored duelling system. There is Liechtenauer material on armored fighting and weapons other tha the longsword, but it's periphoral to the core curricula.
So, why should you study one system or the other? Well for starters the chronology might be important to you. If you want to learn about 15th century combat, Fiore students explore it more thoroughly. If you want to learn about 16th century fighting, Liechtenauer students explore it more thoroughly. People who are very good at Liechtenauer tend to be very good at unarmored sparring.
Finally I have a little bit of iffy conjecture. In my opinion the Liechtenauer tradition is a fantastic system for turning a good fencer into a great fencer. It takes a great teacher (and a lot of reading between the lines) to make an intelligible beginners curriculum out of Liechtenauer. In my opinion this is one of the strengths of Fiore, the logic behind his system is very explicit. It might work well to take a Fiore class first, and then a Liechtenauer class
>If you want to learn about 16th century fighting, Liechtenauer students explore it more thoroughly.
Not quite right imho, The Liechtenauer Tradition was in the 15th century followed by the Marcbrüder in the 16th century which still are German School and use the same terminology but are not directly linked to the Liechtenauer Tradition anymore.
Good examples for the Liechtenauer School are Döbringer, Lignitzer or Ringeck. With the Marxbrüder it gets a little fuzzy as to where it started and who influenced that Tradition, lets just say it culminated with Joachim Meyer.
So fucking glad this thread is still around.
Pls don´t murder me for asking this :
I found guys who train with the Langes Messer. Will train together with them in friday. Anything i should pay attention to in order to realize if it´s a mcdojo or not ?
Glad to hear some answers
McDojo is not so common in the HEMA world, neckbeard LARPers are the bigger danger.
++solid warm up routine, including stretching and HIT
++emphasis on footwork in technique training
+everbody in sports gear
+advanced guys have full kit
+training weapons (non steel) for beginners
-metal weapons for beginners
-no sparring for advanced students
--fantasy/medival dress up
--no solid warm up
Now langes Messer is not that common, most people who do it are fairly experienced. If you mind posting the clubs name you might get an evaluation here.
Anybody have experience with any of the schools in Ottawa (Ottawa Swordplay, Les Maitres D'Armes)? Took a couple half-year courses from an ex-SCA group a year or two back, but jumped ship because of their insistence on faux-period armour for sparring use.
Wondering since I'd like to get back into the art, but I'd rather not be spending buckets of money on 'safety gear' that seems to be ignored by any of the tournaments I see videos from.
Depends on the discipline, they are mustard with sabers and Easton is also skilled with sword and buckler. Haven't seen anyone of them really excel with the long sword. I reckon they are pretty solid, they just have a slightly different curriculum than the guys on the continent.
Another UK anon here looking clubs, had a look at
but School of the Sword no longer appears to have their Reading club, anyone know of anymore in the Hants/S Berks area?
The web presence for UK martial arts of any kind seems to suck something fierce.
Honestly I don't know, they look like a Kendo dojo with a longsword group, maybe one of the ameribros can comment.
Speaking of ameribros, well done!
Should I be suspicious of a HEMA club that claims learning Fiore will let me practically defend myself in a modern context.
I mean yeah it has knife defence, unarmed striking and grappling but it seems far more 'efficient' to learn a dedicated unarmed martial art for that.
>Should I be suspicious of a HEMA club that claims learning Fiore will let me practically defend myself in a modern context.
Yes you should.
>I mean yeah it has knife defence, unarmed striking and grappling but it seems far more 'efficient' to learn a dedicated unarmed martial art for that.
Fiore and the Italian school has some pretty sophisticated self defense, simple, dirty, effective which good knowledge of the biomechanics, thats not the problem. Problem is to find somebody who trains it on a high and efficient level.
My club has a dedicated ringen session every Monday. (Sadly too late for me to be there.)
Still, if practical self defence is a priority, then it seems a bit unnecessary to piece together an art from centuries old manuscripts instead of going with something that's more readily available.
Well there is some stuff HEMA teaches which likely is gonna be usefull in an SD situation, Abrazzare was intended as a self defense system for a violent time and it is still valid. Also the aggression you get from longsword sparring and such will likely be helpfull. Still you are right, it is very odd if somebody tries to use this as a selling point. Mind to post a link to the club in question?
It's not odd when you think about. They're not saying they have the best most efficient self defence system and that you will become a killing machine by training with them, are they? They're just saying that aside from having fun with swordsmanship, some of the unarmed techniques have some practical application too.
>We teach a workable and full martial curriculum to students that enables them to both fight just as those who were originally trained in our Arts and to a level that they could rely upon their skills to defend themselves in modern-day situations.
Its not a bold claim of super skills or anything.
That seems reasonable tbh. Yes, there may be more efficient and ways to learn a self defence discipline, but that doesn't detract from this. Though the amount they train and the intensity they train at is yet to be determined, the system is just as good as any modern one. It was developed at a much more violent time, for people who were much more knowledgeable and experienced in physical violence. It's not a score based striking sport or a spiritual journey through katas.
I agree with you on the system itself, it must have worked quite good, they had centuries refining being nasty no holds barred.
The problem is with the intensity of the training, I know only very few individuals (and no club to speak of) who trained Abrazzare or Kampfringen to a high enough level it could be usable for a real fight. If you're into that, you'd be better off with 2-3 Muay Thai or Boxing sessions a week.
Does anyone know any manual that teaches how to fight with a katzbalger and dagger? Would regular medieval arming sword and dagger apply, or does it involve a different fighting style?
German school then, they got a good deal of dagger fighting. What years are you looking for?
Katzbalger is more difficult, iirc it was a backup weapon, so you use it for pure self defense. Wittenwilers Swiss Degen treaty likely comes close, other than that, either langes Messer or maybe sword an buckler stuff.
Meyer, Wallerstein, Lignitzer, pretty much anybod had dagger plays in their books. Dagger was essential because everyone had one and it is not a playful thing, if you are in a dagger fight, you are in deep shit, hence most dagger treatises have a strong self defense character.
Here, have some vids and playlists:
>Here, have some vids and playlists:
open them in youtube, both are playlists with several videos.
Just realised that there's a group near my house doing HEMA.
I used to fence a bit, and I wouldn't mind learning HEMA sabre.
Give me a reason to get involved. What's the sparring like?
>What's the sparring like?
Intense, the psychological component is the same like in sports fencing, but it is physically much more strenuous and the pain feedback can be quite hefty. This, combined with a legit weapons weight of ~800g for sabre gives quite a different feeling from sports fencing sabre.
What's the crowd like? Is it mainly fat, bearded autists or do you get an athletic crowd?
Sport fencing tends to veer more towards autism in my experience, but there;s a bit of both
Highly depends on the club, some are pretty neckbeardish, some take it as full contact martial art with hefty workouts 3 or more times a week. In general all guys competing for top places in tournaments are really fit.
Where are you from then?
My club is mostly athletic people who are really into fantasy and/or history. Except our most seniour member and de-facto instructor, who's built like the Heavy Weapons Guy. He spent a whole month using a longsword with only his right hand because his other one got busted. He still kicked everyone's asses.
Ireland. I was vaguely looking around at HEMA clubs and discovered one like 10 mins drive from my house, so I'm considering it.
They seem to just do longsword and dagger though, which don't interest me quite as much.
I used to fence, but I couldn't do it last year as my masters course was so heavy, but HEMA could be an interesting one
Hard to say then, I know next to nothing about the HEMA scene in Ireland. Sabre is pretty big in the UK, but I assume that doesn't help you much. Best would be if you visit their training and see for yourself if it is decent and if the sparring is good enough.
>Sport fencing tends to veer more towards autism in my experience
I have seen this, too. Why does it happen? It's an Olympic sport, you'd think people would be more athletically oriented.
Probably dussack stuff is as close to you would get for a katzbalger. There are a few good sources on its. Meyer if you want a reliable one. Dussack is one of the circumstance sin which i think mair isn't bad either though im sure some will disagree. some others, but many dislike the dussack as being somewhat sportier than other medeival fighting styles.
We actually discussed it one night after training.
We reckoned that the kind of people who do fencing are the kind of people who don't like or aren't good at team sports.
Don't get me wrong, some of these guys were amazing fencers, and serious athletes (so when I say 'autism' I don't mean 'neckbeard'), but it just seems to lend itself to a slightly autistic demographic.
Damn good fun though
>I know next to nothing about the HEMA scene in Ireland
I realised I should have just looked for them on youtube to see what the scene was like:
This seems to have been the all-Ireland longsword final last year.
What's the standard like? I can't tell
Yea HEMA Ireland is just starting to really find its feet. They're having an all Ireland event in Dublin soon that might be worth looking out for a one day taster event. November sometime i believe.
Same as anywhere really clubs vary in quality but theres great clubs on both sides of the border now and it's growing there as mich as anywhere else.
The Irish fella is right tho its mostly Longsword clubs with a little dagger but increasingly messer and other goodies springing up.
Theres at least one club that certainly used to train polish sabre aswell not sire if they're still around tho
>What's the standard like? I can't tell
Low tier but not bottom tier. Plus the girl is fuckable.
Fuck it mate, you're in Ireland, if you got sportsfencing background you actually can help develop HEMA on your Island. They will be happy for every expertise they can get. Looks like they got gear, so you should be able to spar, and if you beat up everybody with superior footwork and distance management you will raise the bar and hence make everybody else train harder.
This. Also thats not all Ireland. I've seen a much better standard there but frankly fairly worse too heh. As much as anywhere ofcourse.
I remember thinking at least one club was the tire hitting variety who pride themselves on broken feders but they're common everywhere.
Get stuck in HEMAs awesome.
>the tire hitting variety
Irishfag who asked the question here.
Kek, this is common for hurling training here.
What do you mean in a HEMA context? Is it a shit practice there?
Haha, my footwork was never great (for some reason, the standard of bladework in Irish fencing is fine, but the footwork is terrible)
I may pop the local club an email and see what the story is though, from their pictures there's only a few of them, but it might be decent:
The photos showing kids staring in the door would be a bit shit though
Its not bad. I do more than a little myself for shoulder endurance but... Well to put it more correctly its an intensity debate and some people just like to swing and hit as if injuring their opponent counted for anything but therein lies sport reflecting actual combat and a myriad other classic HEMA kettles of fish.
Either way, pussy as it might make me I don't mind breaking their feders against me but anything more than a nick on mine and my fun meter plummets
P.S. thats one of the aspects of HEMA I like most, you can build your own club/national association/sport and it is very rewarding. I have sports fencing background but always missed the physical component. And so it started...
>joined a HEMA club which was down to some LOTR freaks and 2 guys who knew their shit, helped build up the club back to ~30 people who take it seriously, first with the long sword, now also with Rapier, S&B, Military Saber, langes Messer and Kampfringen.
>LOTR freaks left for good or straightened up after HIT and push-ups became regular warm-up
>went to tournaments and workshops abroad, brought back the experience and the sparring gear to the club.
>made the nationals, became champion, inspired everybody in the country to go for full, buy gear and take it serious
>became board member of the national HEMA association
>became delegate for the IFHEMA
>have 20 students every week who respect me as their coach and want to learn from me
>travel and hang around at international gatherings in different European cities, always have a friend to crash with and have a friendly fight and a couple drinks
Hell, HEMA is the best thing that ever happened to me, I work for a living, but I live to fence, it is a lifestyle, and I am proud of it.
If you have a student, silly boy, socially inept, a little awkward, you teach him, after a year he wins his first fight against a bigger guy and walks out of your salle tall and like a boss, and you know you helped him, best feeling ever!
They got gear.
Which means you can spar for full.
Which means you can become really good, depending how much time you invest.
Which means you got buddies who love fencing good enough to drop some serious cash on it and are likely to stay for life.
Which means you can adapt different weapons, they boys already invested in their kit, if you show up with some Regenyei sabres and and manual they will train with you.
Might not be perfect, but for sure it is good enough to do some serious HEMA.
I'd say go for it. HEMA is still kinda underground, which means you have to invest a lot of your time and energy to build it the way you want it to have and cannot just walk in an consume like in a McDojo.
>What do you mean in a HEMA context? Is it a shit practice there?
No it is not, it is a common practice for martial arts workouts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psZ-U7smHM4
Now the guys from Fechtschule Gdansk took it up: http://www.fechtschule.org/filmy-47
besides being renown for being some of HEMA's finest fighters, they also have a reputation for being a bit over the top in sparring, the resulting bruises are affectionately called Gdansk tattoos in the HEMA world.
It's pretty fucking stupid, too. You don't need to hit that hard with a sharp sword. They're not blunt tools. I'd value speed, control and a correct cutting motion over hitting as hard as you can.
Lol yes and it's fucking easy to get a rise out of those idiots. If you have a problem with me we can settle it with some friendly sparring, if you're in the UK email me at Fechtguy at gmail dawt com and we'll make a date.
You've got a good point
And plus, they're really close and the first session is free.
I can't exercise for another week (at the end of recovering from surgery), so I might check them out then
Some of you might remember that a while back I emailed a few different HEMA groups asking if any of them were interested in doing comparisons and cross training with any of the Chinese weapons I've worked with, since I'm personally interested in seeing how the two different types of weapons are better or worse than each other.
Well, I still haven't gotten a response. I'm just going to ask here. How do you HEMA guys think the Jian (Gim) compares to the rapier? I know nothing about rapiers but I think they're aesthetically pleasing and wonder about the differences in handling and effectiveness (historically) in terms of the quality of metals used and design.
Kayfabe wise John Laurinaitis is the reason why Smackdown is in the shit state that its in
secondly Teddy was part of the big 12 that were cut 6 months ago why bring him back
third who gives a shit whose the better GM because at the end of the day SMACKDOWN WILL STILL NOT HAVE ONE
4th Smackdown is and will forever will be an extension of Raw
Why is the fat man guiding a steel weapon into his face?
Does he not realize the other guy could move?
Doe she not realize that the torso is mobile, and that he can lean/bend/MOVE THE FUCKING BUCKLER?
Nothing about what he is doing makes sense, even to me, and I fucking play tag in an atomic clock system.
EXPLAIN THIS SHIT
Why do guys' fights look so bad and boring compared to the girls'?
The guys just rush each other and then bash once and that's it. In the girls' there's actually swordplay after the first contact, grappling, groundfighting, etc. Are they using different schools? Are the guys just so good I can't even see how good they are because I've never done HEMA?
He can't move, he can't bend, he can't lean, moving his buckler in addition to his sword would probably result in cardiac arrest, and he's probably assuming/hoping for an opponent of equal calibre.
Fucking Fechtguy. All you do on these threads is talk about how much you hate Matt Easton, challenge people to fight you, or troll the sport fencers' thread. Do you ever have anything to contribute?
Someone post an example of what you'd consider to be high-quality HEMA , I can't really tell what's 'acceptable' in HEMA by comparison to sport fencing.
Anyone in most HEMA videos I've seen would be shot for their poor footwork in a sport fencing salle, but I can't tell if that's just because HEMA requires different footwork
Yes footwork is different. Medieval systems like longsword use very little lunging, instead the majority of movement is done by passing the back foot to the front (or opposite to move backwards). This is so your hips are in line with your shoulders when you cut.
Later systems focus more on lunging but they still have techniques which cross the feet, both to attack, retreat or to move off line. When there is conventional lunging it's still different to modern fencing. It's a lot more conservative with a greater focus on being able to retreat out of distance with a single step, so no skipping or flunges, they're pretty suicidal.
Here are two good examples
Anton is incredible fast and uses Twer- and Schielhau variations, Jan got BTFO and thats very unusual for a fighter as strong as Jan. Also good footwork by Anton.
Nice intense fight, disarmament at 01:35 and the point at 07:30 is just pure sugar.
For the footwork, it is different, but yes also many people in HEMA are bad at it. The fight mechanics are different, it is much harder to snipe with a 1.5kg blade than with an Epee, but I still manage to make tons of points just with superior distance management.
>it is much harder to snipe with a 1.5kg blade than with an Epee, but I still manage to make tons of points just with superior distance management.
That's the thing, speed was always my advantage with sport sabre, which fed into distance management (as even when I was in range, I could dodge fast enough that it didn't matter)
I'm not sure how that would translate to HEMA, it strikes me that it's a bit more difficult to lash out and retreat with a longsword like you could with a sabre or epee
It translates very well into HEMA, good footwork, good timing, good distance management and the ability to advance or retreat fast and hence switch from offense to defense fast is a fundamental of all bladed martial arts.
There is not an awful lot of footwork in the old manuscripts and for years the focus was more on researching the techniques itself, as a result many HEMAtists lack proper footwork and the ability to dodge an attack by simply moving out of distance.
If you have had sports fencing training and know that game you can use it very well to your advantage. The steps do not translate 1:1, but important is knowing the game with the distance.
Ofc. you'd still have a couple years to get the longsword techniques right and figure out how the biomechanics work, but at least you'd know how to move smoothly.
I come from a background of many years practicing foil. I thought that footwork with a longsword would be far more disorienting than it turned out to be. There are steps that look exactly like the way you advance and retreat in sport fencing, but you usually use those to adjust your position, not to attack.
Attacks are generally made with passing steps. While a part of me wanted to scream "This changes everything!" I found that controlling the distance was very similar to my past experience. I tried a fun little exercise where I stood on a tile in my kitchen and made a passing step forward. Then I stood on the same tile and made a lunge. I was surprised to find that my forward foot ended up in almost exactly the same place. Once I realized that a passing step covers about the same distance as a lunge everything became very intuitive for me.
My local club has a pretty odd character, a mixed bag of good and bad. There's a lot of athleticism in the fighters, half are military or ex-military. The curriculum seems well written, with a lot of thought given to "why this works" rather than "we do this because we do this". I have nothing to complain about in the classes or the sparring.
The downside is that this club jumps straight from synthetic weapons to rebated blades. They do practically nothing with feders. I am not looking forward to spending two or three grand on equipment that's safe for that shit, nor am I looking forward to the kinds of injuries you can get with rebated weapons even if you're wearing the very best.
So my plan is to study with these guys for as long as I can bear it, and then move to a better city where I can join a club that's a little less insane.
Or you could just buy 2 (two) Feders, and insist that your opponent uses one of them whilst sparring with you.
Additionally you could make sure to buy Ensifer Feders and show them Jan C. Sparring videos to make them hot.
>People fence with blunt swords in the standard gear,
No, they dance, I have yet to see somebody really fence with blunts. People who use blunts for "sparring" are usually your stereotypical fat neckbeard, and they are far away from doing anything right, cause if they would somebody would end up in the ER.
I see blunt swords advertised for sparring use all the time and youtube is full of videos of people sparring or competing with blunts in normal HEMA gear, nothing that costs 'thousands' at any rate.
Anyone have any experience of HEMA stickfighting?
Just realised some clubs here in Ireland do it, it's a native MA that never quite died out (it was very popular in the 19th Century and kept going through small groups and family lines)
It has some manuals, afaik.
Anyone know anything about it? If I take up HEMA it could be an interesting option down the line
Its a good martial art and very applicable especially in Ireland where everyones grandparents have a blackthorn stick from somewhere or other.
Looks alot like kali in a way.
I noted however how its much bigger in the US than Ireland and sort of drifted back which makes me skeptical.
>I noted however how its much bigger in the US than Ireland and sort of drifted back which makes me skeptical.
Yeah, me too.
I think the sport has a bit more cultural significance to Murricans whose ancestors left around the time it was popular.
For us, it kind of reminds up of faction fighting, which was a retarded and embarrassing sport.
Still, if developed properly it could be pretty cool, it's nice that we have our own MA, of sorts
What's the best simulator to get for Sword & Buckler sparring? The only off the shelf options I've heard of are nylon. Is there some reason that a feder design wouldn't work for a one handed sword?
There's a few of Szymon Chlebowski's "Onehanded fencing sword I" amongst the S&B people in my club, I think they're reasonably fond of them. No schilt, but otherwise very much feders, and not blunts.
https facebook /media/set/?set=a.169792796532962.1073741830.122196397959269&type=3 (Spam-filters triggered, so fill in the first part of the adress as expected.)
Otherwise I'd hazard a guess that Regenyei's "one handed training tool" probably isn't bad either.
What do you guys think of these books?