I'd say euthanasia because they can never be around people without aggression but I imagine it'd be too expensive. Plus they say if a cat is gone for when they try to spay or neuter, a other will just take its place. I remember seeing a video where they cull large pigeon populations in cities with some food and a big net. Too bad they can't do that.
>>2025938 >>2025928 >>2025959 My state has a spay and release program following the logic that female cats, spayed or not, will maintain a territory and compete with fertile cats and act as did mates for feral males. You reduce the feral's ability to breed better with duds than with empty land to move into.
I spent a lot of time looking at the results of TNR studies for a college thing last year, and unfortunately in most cases this just isn't the case. The nurtured/spayed cats are less agressive and less willing to fight, so they just end up being pushed out of the territory by the unfixed and new arrival cats.
>>2026647 Exactly. Why are people so desperate to avoid killing these wild animals that are destroying are ecosystem? Everyone's so quick to destroy every other non-native invasive predator, but why not wild cats?
>>2025868 I do it. You can't take a cat that has lived on the streets for years and just house break it. You can get them acclimated to humans and want to be playful though! We get them fixed and spayed, and we also are sure to adopt their kittens if there are any. I love cats, but I prefer to keep dogs and snakes. I have 3 Cavalier King Charles Spaniels that get along wonderfully with cats, so it also helps with acclimating them. I think when I was in highschool, with my mom, we probably adopted out 4-5 kittens and all the current owners still love them to death!
I'm very curious though, has there been a huge amount of scientific data and research papers that have been published showing how bad feral cats have been impacting the ecosystem pertaining to U.S. wildlife? No doubt in some way they are but how REALLY BAD is it in the U.S.?
>>2026709 It would be nice, but with the current political state of affairs most funding goes to research larger, more immediate problems like dwindling natural resources or the effects of climate change.
Not to mention a study like that would be widely opposed by those vocal animal rights activists, and the proponents of such a study are much less organized and active.
>>2027483 >I can't do a basic google search >I don't understand subsidized predation
"'If we extrapolate the results of this study across the country and include feral cats, we find that cats are likely killing more than 4 billion animals per year, including at least 500 million birds. Cat predation is one of the reasons why one in three American bird species are in decline,' said Dr. George Fenwick, President of American Bird Conservancy."
>>2027490 Are you saying that cats are just like humans, in that they can't live in balance with their environment? Or perhaps it is human made environments which have made it harder for those birds to live, and thus cats APPEAR to be the problem when really its human habitat encroachment?
The witch huntery shit doesn't stop with the human race apparently.
>>2027494 You are an idiot. They are assuming consistent rates around the country have the same rate as that area, but the effect on that area is clear. They are a disaster there and it's obvious. If you think cats are not a disaster it's because you are deluded to the same extent anti-vaxers, anti-GMOs, and climate change deniers are.
Look up subsidized predation. Cats are a disaster, they don't need to drive anything to extinction for that to be true. They damage the entire system.
>>2027507 >They are assuming consistent rates around the country have the same rate as that area, but the effect on that area is clear.
I'm telling you the rates don't add up with actual bird populations or mortality, so they fucked up.
I love how you think I'm anti-science but you react with anger when someone challenges the METHODOLOGY of a study that supports your favorite notions.
I think cats are an ecological disaster AND I know your study is a heap of bullshit. And the reason that heap of shit doesn't shape policy in the US is BECAUSE WE CAN'T POINT TO A SINGLE SPECIES WHERE IT HOLDS TRUE.
>>2027515 >>2027516 >Claims the guy that provides a source which directly references scientific studies is the one pronouncing facts Why is the cat lobby so stupid? You people can't even understand basic ecology or statistics.
>>2027513 >people don't feed feral cats Are you really this out of touch with reality? People do this all the time. Animal control sites beg people to stop.
>>2027521 >You people can't even understand basic ecology or statistics. it's a bit too basic is all I'm saying.
instead of going out and counting how many birds are actually killed by cats in the wild they just track one cat and count how many birds it kills in a day and then multiply that a billion times for the estimated number of cats and days.
if you can't see why that's weak nonsense you're either a woman or a retard. Or emotionally attached to the outcome.
or all of the above.
the simple fact is the study anon cited doesn't match reality.
>>2027524 The bird decline is based on bird population studies, not "extrapolation".
Using a sample of a cat population to understand how effective they are at hunting is also basic statistics. You are retard trying to deny facts for the sake of miniature top predator because its cute.
>>2027526 >The bird decline is based on bird population studies, not "extrapolation". yes, that's a separate line of inquiry. If you actually look at bird populations in the US you'll find they decline and rebound every year.
the trend over a period of several years isn't a decline. Individual species may indeed be declining, but not a third of species or a third of all birds. And not one of those declining species is actually blamed on cats.
>You are retard trying to deny facts for the sake of miniature top predator because its cute.
they aren't facts. I don't give a fuck about cats, I'm offended by your failure at math.
10 billion birds minus 5 billion from natural causes minus 4 billion from cats equals 1 billion left. Birds would be extinct in a year at that rate.
two of those numbers come from actual census counts, the other comes from extrapolation. Which ones should we trust? Which ones do you think state ecologists trust?
>>2027531 >I'm taking numbers out of context to make the study look bunk If you actually looked at the study you'd realize you are either a. completely off base and stupid or b. defending cats intentionally. There is no science or math in your favor.
>>2027542 >prey population controls predator populations Which is why I say you don't understand subsidized predation. They are subsidized, by people, feeding them. Cats are also willing to eat any small mammal. If mice do better around people, it doesn't matter if the birds die, they can eat mice. Cats will still eat birds when they can, but they don't need to and their populations won't drop if they don't.
>>2027550 in which case we'd have to posit that either cats prefer to eat birds or the birds they're eating have no other natural predators.
either way we're trying to explain a problem that doesn't exist.
if bird populations in general aren't declining, and we don't know of a single bird species that's being decimated by cats, why are we trying to figure out how the cats are killing birds and causing extinctions?
I dunno, we've got exactly the same problem with bees and neonicotinoids. People have been trying to explain how neonicotinoids cause bee extinction for the last 55 years.
the problem is bees aren't actually going extinct.
>>2027555 >if bird populations in general aren't declining >wild bees (as in not honey bees) are not declining Ok, seriously stop. You are proclaiming facts here and haven't even bothered to produce any evidence. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/domestic-crops-threatened-by-dramatic-decline-in-wild-bee-population_567957a0e4b06fa6887e915c http://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/january12/birds-011205.html
As far as whether or not an insecticide could be bad for bees, really? It at least needs a major independent study even if it doesn't out right kill them. Besides that though I agree, wild bees are in decline because of habitat degradation, mostly due to agriculture and invasive plants. Not the insecticides. More likely herbicides have a more significant effect.
>>2027570 Honey bees aren't even native. Environmentalists care about wild bees, not honey bees. CCD is caused by an invasive mite, Verroa destructor. It's not going to kill them all but it does cause a lot of economic damage.
>>2027575 >Does it again Good job, you've failed. I searched it in the post you responded to and it supported me, yet you seem incapable of finding anything that supports your claims.
Feral cats are a huge problem in Australia. Second invasive species to fuck up our continent next to Chuzwuzzas. I believe the government is coming up with a plan soon to bring down their numbers. A type of feed that will either poison them or make them infertile. Dunno how they will do it, but it was a big thing on abc not long ago. I believe the Bilby has become endangered due to kitties.
>>2028228 >Fuck peta an interesting sentiment because most of the science /an/ agrees with is actually funded by PETA.
you claim to hate it but eat out of its hand. >all mammals feel pain and suffer >cats are destroying the birds >fish can feel pain >factory farming is cruel these are all ideas that in science are floated and funded entirely by PETA
>>2028455 The cognitive dissonance and circularity with you is strong.
>Showed evidence that birds in general are declining, with sources. Denies it without a source, proclaims google when challenged because clearly can't find anything. Changes focus to demanding specific examples
>Demands specific examples, gets them Claims that uncommon birds being threatened don't matter and to represent a broad trend and changes focus to the outsourced "fact" common birds aren't threatened
You are wrong and have been proven wrong on both specific and brood counts with sources. Google is not your friend, everyone else but you seems capable of using it.
>>2028455 >the 33 species listed are NOT MOST BIRDS they're the most common birds so they ARE most birds, they're just not most bird species. >they're less than 1% of US birds by population. that is common. >cats aren't implicated in the decline cats are a part of the decline everywhere they are.
>>2028460 >Changes focus to demanding specific examples I started off asking for specific examples, if you like I can show you the post. >Demands specific examples, gets them nobody has named a single species threatened by cats yet.
I'm not trying to win arguments here, I'm honestly curious if you can NAME A SINGLE SPECIES OF BIRD IN THE CONTIGUOUS US THAT'S KNOWN TO BE THREATENED BY CATS?
You've given me nothing, which is what I've found as well.
the reasonable conclusion is you can't name a single one because none are known.
>>2028465 invasive sparrows are more common than everything on that list.
they aren't common at all. Nor is less than 1% equal to most (more than 50%)
cats are certainly part of the decline, but until they actually cause an extinction or endangerment nobody here is going to care aside from anti-science environmentalists and people like you that hate cats.
>>2028466 >nobody has named a single species threatened by cats yet. no one needs to.
every bird species near cats is threatened by cats. >>2028468 >invasive sparrows are more common than everything on that list. irrelevant. >they aren't common at all they're the most common birds in north america. >but until they actually cause an extinction or endangerment there's 33 species extinct due to cats. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-21236690
>>2028470 But squirrel is considered small game and can be hunted. Or you can kill them if they are being a pest around your house. And squirrels don't kill birds for the sake of killing. Cats on the other hand are protected by laws and fanatic cat people. Kill a cat, it's animal abuse. Kill a squirrel? No one gives a shit.
every species that's near cats is threatened, any bird species you're able to find in america that isn't native to an extremely isolated area is being threatened by cats.
it's not just birds, they're also making every mammal in the sea go extinct right now with their brain parasites. >house sparrows, pigeons and crows are the most common birds in north america. I don't think you understand what common even means.
either way you wouldn't know if there's less birds because you don't go outside.
>>2028520 there's more if you look for them, I just picked this one as an example. >hey look, no mention of cats. but by 1890 this number had declined to 120–200 birds, mainly due to predation by feral cats and poaching. By the late 19th century, there were about 70 left.
>>2028560 really it's just a matter of degree, but for the sake of this conversation the difference that matters is that cat's often cause bird extinctions on islands and have never caused one on our mainland.
thus the reason our scientists don't spend a lot of time or money researching bird extinctions caused by cats in the US.
>>2028570 I think it's more likely because the birds we have endangered in the US aren't found near human settlement and thus avoid predation by cats. In fact it's usually their avoidance of humans that causes them problems - there aren't that many places you can go to avoid humans any more.
>Islands are just convenient, if sad, proof of concept sure, if we assume that larger ecosystems are perfectly modeled by small ones.
I've never met an ecologist that thinks that. much of /an/ seems to.
>>2028571 >a couple significant mechanisms at work in the mainland that protect every bird species from cats. one has already been mentioned, there are more terrestrial predators already there on the mainland. I.e. birds have evolved defenses to things much like cats.
in the US there are actual cat species native to the mainland, birds have evolved around actual cats.
island birds tend to be ground-nesting birds, much more vulnerable to cats. A lot of island birds don't fly, making it even worse.
Both predator and prey are far more concentrated on an island. Spread them out more and suddenly they aren't much of a problem. Birds have more places to hide, cats have more territory to cover.
what is exactly is a "feral" cat? There are a bunch of strays around my apartment complex and any time one of them comes up to me they're very nice and like to be petted. Are they considered feral? Is there a difference between stray and feral?
I live in the country and have chickens and rabbits that are loose in chain link fenced yards and every once in a while I get feral cats that come and kill my animals. When that happens I sit and wait knowing they will be back the next night and I blow their fucking head off.
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