Im trying to tell my friend to basically stop dressing like a ho but shes drugged up on libertarian nonsense.
Im trying to explain to her that shes only perpetuating the objectification of women and that her taste in clothing is a product of the society that objectifies women. But she doesnt get it.
Last time we were talking about this she said that she should be able to wear whatever she wanted and be respected which is just not true.
>Last time we were talking about this she said that she should be able to wear whatever she wanted and be respected which is just not true.
Its not controlling. Its trying to make my friend the best she can be which is what a friend should do. You dont let your friends steer off the right path.
>She should be able to wear whatever she wants
Depends on how you look at it. Should she be a prostitute. Just because she can doesnt mean she should. I dont think I am wrong for wanting the best for my friend and that entails not presenting yourself as a piece of meat for society.
Do you really think you can dress like a prostitute and be respected as more than a prostitute. Because the answer is no.
The way you dress and choose to present yourself reflect who you are.
You can wear whatever you want, that's granted, but you can't expect to deserve to be respected at the same time. If you want to dress like a fucking clown, cool dude, you do you, but don't expect me to not look at you and think "she looks like a fucking clown".
But seriously. How do I get through to her. Its seems like she just doesnt want to listen to reason and would rather listen to what makes her feel good. Im not good at explaining things to these types of people.
>shes only perpetuating the objectification of women
Ironic, since you're treating her not as an individual, but an object possessed by society and bound by its rules (or rather, its rules as YOU see them) instead of an individual person with her own agency, wants, desires, etc.
>Instrumentality – treating the entity as a tool for another's purposes: "The objectifier treats the object as a tool of his or her purposes."
>Denial of autonomy – treating the entity as lacking in autonomy or self-determination: "The objectifier treats the object as lacking in autonomy and self-determination."
>Inertness – treating the entity as lacking in agency or activity: "The objectifier treats the object as lacking in agency, and perhaps also in activity."
>Denial of subjectivity – treating the entity as if there is no need for concern for its experiences or feelings: "The objectifier treats the object as something whose experience and feelings (if any) need not be taken into account."
>Reduction to body – the treatment of a person as identified with their body, or body parts;
>Reduction to appearance – the treatment of a person primarily in terms of how they look, or how they appear to the senses;
>Silencing – the treatment of a person as if they are silent, lacking the capacity to speak.
In short, you're the objectifying asshole here.
> basically stop dressing like a ho
What exactly does a ho dress like? I haven't seen your mom, so I don't know.
No Im treating her as I would treat any person. Not all rules are evil and only a child cant see that.
How am I objectifying her. Is a parent objectifying their child when they send them to school. You are just a bad friend is all Im hearing.
Live and let live. you can tell her your opinion, but it's YOUR opinion. If you're too dense to realize that you are wasting your time and you're trying to impose your personal views on someone else, she can be too dense to realize that no one gives a shit about how she feels she should be seen, they're going to see her how they want to.
You see the world through your eyes, no one can force you to see it another way.
She's free to do as she pleases and you should stop trying to meddle. People trying to, and even worse succeeding, at imposing your (subjective) will onto other people is exactly what has been wrong with humans all along.
tl;dr: you sound like you're nagging. Stop trying to 'save the world' or being a cliche Ghandi quote.
>but it's YOUR opinion
No it is reality and you have to face it. Dressing like a ho perpetuates the objectification of women. It is my opinion that the objectification of women is bad but I dont think she disagrees there.
>She's free to do as she pleases and you should stop trying to meddle
Do you people not know what a friend is. Go read some philosophy on the purpose and types of friends there are.
Im not trying to save the world. But I wouldnt consider myself her friend if I didnt at least try to save her.
>shes only perpetuating the objectification of women
= she's an instrument for your ideological positions (and is doing the wrong thing)
>that her taste in clothing
= reduction to appearance, reduction to body
>she said that she should be able to wear whatever she wanted and be respected which is just not true.
= silencing, denial of autonomy, inertness
> But she doesnt get it.
= denial of subjectivity
>Is a parent objectifying their child when they send them to school.
You are placing yourself in the PARENT role and treating her as if she was a CHILD. How is that not exactly 'paternalistic' bullshit agency-removing objectification? That's the fucking definition of it. If you overheard a man trying to tell her she was dressed like a slut you wouldn't have any problem noticing that this is an objectification of her appearance, you blind fuck.No, the problem here is that you're an asshole with an agenda and you're perfectly willing to objectify your friend in order to force her to conform to some bullshit social rule that you just happen to like.
You dont understand what a friend is.
>she's an instrument for your ideological positions
Thats the largest stretch you can make. And a terrible argument that shows how immature you make. You might as well have said that people in general are an instrument for alleviating your loneliness. You can bs any argument. Try to make a real one.
>reduction to appearance, reduction to body
Might as well have said, reduction to words and actions while youre at it. You get to choose how you dress and present yourself to the world. If you choose to present yourself as a ho then you cant complain.
>silencing, denial of autonomy, inertness
I didnt hold a knife to her neck. Youre just so full of bs arent you
>denial of subjectivity
Theres nothing subjective about the objectification of women.
Telling someone dressed like a slut that they are dressed like a slut is stating facts. I dont think you really have a point her.
You really dont have real friends it seems.
>that's a stretch
Oh, is it? I could have sworn you said in your OP that you were trying to tell your friend what to do (based on your ideology), that she didn't agree, and that you don't respect her because of it
yeah, *I'm* the one that doesn't know what friends are. Christ, what an asshole.
No, perception is reality. that is how the world works.
Truthfully, I agree with both of you that dressing like a ho isn't a good thing for someone trying to garner respect, and that others are going to form their opinion of her on what they see. The clothes make the person, so it's said.
So what? She cares less about respect and more about doing what she wants. Her saying they have to accept her for how she is is like you saying she has to dress how others tell her. both are bullshit, even if what you're saying is indeed for her benefit. She's more caught on flexing her rights than being aware that the world is going to take her at first glance, and while you want to change that, there's nothing you can really do.
She's not in the wrong either, she can wear what she wants and be ignorant about it if she wants: You are wasting your time. I don't know what she's wearing, but the way you said it it sounds like you could very easily have an agenda.
What i'm saying is that it is still your opinion against hers, even if yours is more logically sound and backed by social convention and norms, and it is, that doesn't change the fact that she's an adult and is going to make bad decisions on her own.
I'm telling you for your sake that you have told her and you're going to come off as pushy if you keep on. Is she indeed a ho? Does she need to wise up or does she need to learn the hard way? Should you accept her as she is instead of trying to change her or should you cut ties?
Think about it: someone could come to you and harp on you about how everything you believe and stand for is wrong when most of it is subjective.
She wants to dress one way while the rest of the world is going to have prejudice on her based on what she's wearing. That's her problem, not yours, unless you want to make it your problem and that makes it meddling.
Do what you want, because she will.
Its not just that simple. Its not like shes some alien you chose clothing at random because it made them happy.
She like all of us are a product of the sex driven society we live in and the taste in clothing like everything else is based on our environmental background. Dressing like that reflects who she is and how her mind works. Its an outward display of a problem.
OP, you sound controlling as fuck.
She's made her decision. For her freedom comes before respect. Deal with it.
If you're as annoying as you come across in this thread, she'll probably just start ignoring you.
If she starts ignoring me then Ill know I did everything in my power to help her. This thread is only exist so that I can exhaust all of my resources.
>Freedom to lack respect for yourself and perpetuate the objectification of women
If I ever acted like this I wish a friend would slap some sense into me. Because I trust that my friends will be there for me when I cant see the way.
>what I believe is objectively morally right and I'll do whatever it takes to force people to agree
>this is what good friendship is all about
We're TRYING to slap sense in to you right now, you realize this? You're just not listening. It's fine to convey ideas, but what you're doing is shitty.
>perpetuate the objectification of women
Just want to point out that you're the one doing that here. Not her. If you can't understand that, then you don't understand what objectification is.
Depends. Euthanasia is a complicated topic as well as off topic.
I havent looked into the laws too much other than just debates about them. So Im not a scholar or anything, but I feel there are few cases in which a person thinking 'correctly' would ever do such a thing.
>We're TRYING to slap sense in to you right now, you realize this? You're just not listening.
Lol, this OP. You have no respect for anyone's opinion other than your own. Mind you, there's a difference between agreeing and respecting. You need to learn how to respect without agreeing.
You need to get out more often.
Youre not making sense to me. Youre just saying that I should abandon my friend. It contradicts the ideology I have of what a friend is and their obligations.
No its clear you dont and you have no concept of responsibility. Yes it takes two to tango. But both parties are still responsible.
I know what you mean, OP. I keep telling women that their place is as a wife and homemaker, and that it debases women to be anything different than that, but they're all drugged up on this feminism bullshit. Like, I was talking with a co-worker about how men don't respect women with careers (she's a secretary so that's not really a career) because they wouldn't make very good homemakers, but she just doesn't get it. Like, you can't have a career and be a respected homemaker at the same time you know? She said she could but it's just not true.
How do you convince someone that society just doesn't view them the way they think they ought to be viewed, and they need to change their behavior? I don't know either, OP.
>respect your friends decision to kill themselves
You stop at just respecting differences to people you dont care about. Shes my friend, something you dont seem to understand what means.
Im just going to assume this is satire.
Im against the objectification of women and people in general and actions that perpetuate it.
Your analogy seems to be that its equivalent to women having careers.
Im not about to argue that the objectification of women is wrong which is the corner stone of your point.
So, I wasn't part of the whole "decision to kill themselves" discussion that you initiated. It's not really a comparable conversation. I was simply pointing out that you aren't really listening to anyone.
>compares what she's wearing to suicide
This is either a really good bait thread or you are simply the most unlikable person i've ever seen on an anonymous message board.
I can see why she doesn't listen to you and this is further proof that you're overreacting: You have the mentality of an extremist.
I revert to my earlier statement: People like you are what has always been what's wrong with the world, trampling on the will of others in the name of what they believe.
OP is beyond help and simply came here for validation. Nothing to see here.
Of course. If you look at kants philosophy you cant hold people responsible for things they do when in distress or forced situations. Like if youre blood pressure spikes your sense of reason and logic start to break down. This person isnt thinking 'correctly' then.
You have to take everything into consideration so that you dont make silly mistakes and generalize things you shouldnt. Quickest way to lose an argument.
What do you mean its not comparable. Its an action you disagree. Explain to me what you think the responsibility of a friend is. Because I dont think you really have a good concept of it.
Okay if you are going to start being a stupid child then Im not going to waste my time.
Women are objectifying themselves as well as men. You present yourself as an object. Of course you are responsible. The objectification of women is a direct consequence of your action. Same thing with the men who accept women presenting themselves as an object. Objectification of women and people is a serious problem that needs to be stopped.
It's not comparable because it's an extreme situation where someone is considering killing themselves. Obviously, this involves someone getting hurt.
The conversation we are currently having is about HOW SOMEONE CHOOSES TO DRESS. Clothes people. Even if she's dressing at the bare minimum to not get arrested for indecent exposure, she isn't hurting anyone.
They are completely different levels of concern.
>Explain to me what you think the responsibility of a friend is. Because I dont think you really have a good concept of it.
If you think she is doing something wrong, it is indeed your responsibility to let her know and have a conversation about it. At that point, she makes her decision. You can disagree, but if you go on like this and try to control her (assuming no one is in danger), then you're just being a controlling bitch.
If you're going to try to argue that she's hurting someone by dressing poorly then you are beyond all hope anon.
>It's not comparable because it's an extreme situation where someone is considering killing themselves.
Its just one end of the spectrum. You dont wait until your friends depression reaches suicide to take action.
>she isn't hurting anyone.
You dont see the objectification of women and men as a bad thing. In that mindset then theres nothing I can do to change your mind because I see objectification as a serious problem.
>If you think she is doing something wrong
Look if you think causing direct suffering of others is the only thing a person can do wrong than you are being immature. Imagine if a child said they didnt want to go to school. You dont just let it go as a difference of an opinion. It is the responsibility of the people you trust to guide you when you cant see the way. A friend isnt just there to stop you from hurting others. I implore you to go read philosophy on what a friend is.
It's pedantic fuckers like you that make this board shit. Get the fuck out.