When I was a selfish dick, most people people were always nice to me and wanted to get closer to me. Since I tried being kind, most people just take advantage and shit on me. Is niceness and kindness a meme?
I think you just have the wrong definitions of "selfish" and "nice"
Assertive people are very attractive. Assertive people have no problem saying what they want, pursuing it, competing for it when necessary.
Passive people are generally unattractive. Passive people constantly put other people's wishes ahead of their own, they hope other people will psychically detect their needs and give them what they want, rather than having to fight for it or even ask for it.
You can be assertive AND kind (ideal), you can be passive AND selfish (worst). You were passive and kind, which is common. You've known lots of people who were assertive assholes who tend to get what they want, which is common. So when you started acting assertive, you thought you also had to act like an asshole in order to make it work.
This isn't true, and while your new assertive behavior is improving your life in many ways, your new asshole behavior will also start to create new problems for you.
>>16776675 How to be assertive and kind? Also I didn't become assertive, I was like that. I just had a moment of conscience and felt I hurt way too many people so I tried to be kind but it didn't work out.
>>16776675 >Assertive people have no problem saying what they want, pursuing it, competing for it when necessary.
But competing for it as a nice guy is being "creepy".
OP, you have figured it out.
The path into the light seems dark, the path forward seems to go back, the direct path seems long, true power seems weak, true purity seems tarnished, true steadfastness seems changeable, true clarity seems obscure, the greatest are seems unsophisticated, the greatest love seems indifferent, the greatest wisdom seems childish.
If you've ever read Plato's Republic, they discuss how it is better to seem good, than to be good, and to really be underhanded.
This plays out in daily life all the time while these same people rationalize why good guys are really pieces of shit and they would want to fuck them if they were really good guys, while playing underhanded selfish games in sex and love themselves.
Good guys think of others, and don't want to hurt people, and if they do try to get something for themselves, its abusive predatory asshattery.
Assholes try to get everything for themselves openly, so they are seen as not being underhanded liars, and also seen as "confident" so they get what they want.
Back to Plato's Republic, it is a lament that those who are truly good always get taken advantage of and shit on.
Maybe it just means that most people are fooling themselves.
For some edification
The truth is that you must and should pursue all the things those other people get, because you're surely a better person than Jeff Dalmer or Ted Bundy or Charles Manson. You're an average, relatively decent, human being who doesn't mutilate squirrels, who doesn't rape and eat his victims, and who doesn't cause people to go on murder/suicide sprees.
And yet you get far less social and sexual acceptance than these people, because these people had "confidence".
If you complain, you're just an asshole who's trying to deceive everyone
You can treat people with respect, even if you feel you have to do things that contradict what they want. Like, you can't get a job without beating and disappointing the 19 other people competing for the same job, but that doesn't mean you have to treat them like shit along the way, or lord it over them when you win. Same goes for women, and pretty much anything else in life.
Don't be a pussy who's too "nice" to compete or stand up for yourself. Just don't be an asshole.
>>16776654 Because you can't be a good guy and complain that nothing is working out for you, since if you were really a good guy things would be working out for you.
The logic is observably circular to any person passively glancing at it.
tl;dr, people will shit on you whatever you do. You deserve the same shit everyone else can get in life, moreso if you actually care about not harming others. You're not a dirty perv for wanting sex when you're not attractive, because everyone else who is calling you that is routinely getting some like that believe they deserve.
People will talk shit about you, because they are not good people, because they want to have their cake while denying you yours, and see nothing wrong in their hypocrisy.
The real thing is that nice guys actually care about others' opinions, which makes you a really, really, good target for all the ill-will and vitriol that others have pent up. You are offering a big target on your back by self-proclaiming as a nice guy, because, like Karen says, it shows these cunts of life everything they wish they were but aren't.
You being nice and getting nothing out of life is proof that life generally isn't about niceness being rewarded and badness being punished. See the examples of charismatic murderers, or hitler. Tons of pussy and positive regard from friends and family all the time, while being evil sons of bitches.
Thats why The Republic was stating it is better to appear good while doing all the evil you can, rather than actually be good.
>>16776730 The fact is, feminism for some reason attacks the nice guys, not the guys who treat women like crap. This is something I haven't been able to understand so far, but that's what feminists do.
They complain and complain about guys taking advantage of them while drunk, or date rape, or being beaten by boyfriends, all their ex-boyfriends are assholes, but the nice guys taht complain they can't find anything for their own life are disgusting sniveling toads who are entitled and don't deserve anything.
>What you're describing is not kind and assertive, it's pretentious hypocrite.
You're right, women and those who shit on nice guys are pretentious hypocrites.
I've had a much different experience. For the longest time I was stand-offish and hesitant to help others. In recent years I've began being friendlier to people, smiling, holding doors open, saying thank you, letting people merge into traffic. I've been less angry.
I've noticed that the world seems a much more positive place, and people seem kinder.
Women complain about the lack of potential mates, they also complain about their ex asshole boyfriends.
THEY CHOSE THE ASSHOLE BOYFRIEND. THEY KNEW WHO HE WAS GOING INTO THE RELATIONSHIP.
Either the guy was actually nice and is just being shit on because of the breakup, or he was really an asshole the whole time.
Meanwhile nice guys who go through the same lament about not finding any women (which is what women are continuously doing), get called out by those very same types of women for feeling entitled, for not really being nice, and for not being worthy because they complain.
>>16776750 >Have you ever talked to a feminist? I think date rape and cat calling is number one on their list compared to 4chan users wanting a gf.
But they ignore 4channers who are "good guys" because theyre "creepy" and "might be rapists". They don't like the awkward 4chan type because he seems dangerous, even while trying to display himself as a good person.
Then they go out and get date raped and cat called and murdered because those kinds of men get their pussy engine revved up more, these men who are actual abusers or bad people, than the awkward 4chan type who wants to be a nice person but also wants to have a relationship, romantic, sexual, or otherwise.
Those people are users. Not all people are users, but it's common, and as soon as you notice it, you cut off the flow of favors and free shit. If they're worthwhile, they stick around as friends anyway, or they come up with a way to make it even and offer something in return. If they're parasites, they say "You changed, man, I thought we were friends," they write a few passive-aggressive tweets about you, and then they fuck off in search of someone else to leech off
I never said being a pretentious hypocrite is moral. In fact, it should be apparent that as the pretentious hypocrites are those shitting on nice people, they are decidedly lacking in morals, willing to do harm to others and call them names for wanting things in life that they themselves are already getting.
>>16776765 This is bs logic, kindness is not getting off to bring taken advantage of. It's wanting the benefit of others. I do that because I want them to be happy, instead they are not happy, they want more and more and take me for granted. Gratitude is not getting stuff in return as you wrote, that's not kind at all. It's acknowledgement that you actually succeeded in making others happy.
>>16776783 No, its about people shitting on those who try to be nice but also want some things for themselves.
Be real for a moment. On the one hand, you have someone who tries to be and is nice, and they don't get any of the social benefits that being nice supposedly gets. On the other hand, you have people who are not nearly as nice, getting all the social benefits while also shitting on someone who is nice that complains.
Its like the white privilege concept. There's so much shitting on people because of their race when they're actually not privileged at all.
Women don't like nice guys. They like guys that are considered nice by the majority but are assholes like everyone else. In fact, I would argue that people really don't like nice guys (or nice people in general_) because being so nice is either a con or they're actually that nice and showing all the human failings of the observers, things they wish weren't true about themselves.
After all, if you as a woman manipulate and use a nice guy you know is in love with you, its his fault. Then if he ever calls you out on it, he wasn't a nice guy after all, he was just trying to be lying and manipulative (while you as that women were doing the exact same thing).
The problem is that people aren't standing up for niceness in general, because its better to beat on the whipping boy than "talk shit" to a woman.
>>16776775 This sounds reasonable, thanks. So be kind to people but at the sign of exploration cut people off, and be active and fight for what I want but treat others with respect and don't take pride in beating them?
Unattractive people get the short end of the stick. It's just the way it is. It's not "fair" and if you actually try to break it into logic like you're doing, it'll just drive you crazy. You can't police other people's preferences. So there's really nothing to say except "get over it."
Like I said before, nice people and nice guys show others everything that's wrong with themselves. To rationalize passing over and generally abusing nice people, you must construct a lie that they aren't really nice, else they would get all the social benefits that comes from being nice.
Don't cut PEOPLE off, just stop giving them shit for free when they start expecting it, and let them decide whether or not that ends the friendship/relationship/partnership/whatever.
And yeah. Never hesitate to go after what you want if it isn't directly harmful to others, don't be too nice to step over another person who's trying to get the same thing as you, but don't be cruel.
You can't expect everyone to like you, if you're a driven person, you're going to make enemies. If you're gonna do something that's gonna piss someone else off, just ask yourself "is this necessary? Do I have to do this to get what I want, or am I just doing it out of spite?" Spite can feel really good in the moment sometimes, but it's always regrettable
>We are always playing defense, because they're saying you're a bad person, the natural human instinct is to say 'no im not, im not a bad person, why are you saying that? Im not exploitative'. What our first instinct needs to be is to on the offensive. They are the real exploiters.
It happens to dovetail rather nicely with Karen Straughn's assertion.
By being nice, and then complaining that people are not nice to you, and that society doesn't give you anything you, those who have gotten what they want from society will then say "you're not really nice because if you were, you'd have gotten yours, and you're just acting at being nice".
See, the offensive strategy of people is to immediately call out people who say they're nice but don't get anything as not really being nice. That's the strategy because it makes people who do have such things immediately defensive, because they feel like their own niceness is being called into question, and people can rationalize how nice they are.
Who was it, some gangster named Crowley shot a policeman who stopped him and his girlfriend in their car. When he died while holed up, he wrote a note "Under my coat is a weary heart but a kind one who never did no one any harm".
An obvious lie, and an obvious point of example that some very UNnice people can reap all the benefits of society (girlfriend, sex, money, whatever).
So, everyone believes that they are nice. Even women who manipulate guys believe they're still generally nice people and will then impugn a nice guy who was manipulated and is fed up with the shit and calls her out on it. Suddenly, he isn't nice, he was just trying to manipulate by being nice. Again, its taking the offensive to someone who is calling your own morality and honesty and humanity into question.
Those who drink this kool-aid and stick up with such people against' "nice guy douchebags" are doing so, either because they themselves want to appear nice
>>16776850 by sticking up for "her", or they are also feeling personally slighted by someone who describes themselves as nice yet receiving no social benefits that come from being nice.
After all, the thing we desperately want to believe in society is that goodness is rewarded and wickedness/evil/badness/rapeyness is punished.
This is clearly not so when people complain of cheating boyfriends, of abusive boyfriends, or rapist boyfriends all the time, while shitting on people who are like 4channers, nice but awkward, who get nowhere in life and then complain about it.
Suddenly, all that vitriol isn't fired off at the true offenders of life, the previously described types of men/boyfriends, its fired off at the lonely "nice guys" who want to vent their frustration. Obviously, while these other men and women are fucking like rabbits to their hearts' content, those who express the disappointment at not receiving the same are considered desperate and entitled.
Its like calling a thirsty person in a desert an entitled arrogant hypocritical douchebag for whining about not having enough water while you're taking a bath, because you stepped on other people's necks to get it.
>>16777723 I don't want a reward. What I want is not getting taken advantage of and respected. When I was a dick people respected me, I don't want a tiny bit more for my kindness, I do it for them, I just don't want to be seen as stupid.
As a general rule, people who take advantage of your kindness like that shouldn't be kept around as friends. Just because you stopped being nice to them and the annoying behavior stopped, doesn't mean they suddenly turned into good people. It's not just about your own behavior but the people you surround yourself with. A good friend is not common, but quality is more important than quantity, and a shitty fake friend will fuck you over in the end
Im trying to point out to you how being that kind of terrible person that feels bad to be gets you rewarded, while being a good person gets you shit on.
its a really bad system, those who shit on you for being good and complaining about the system are the very ones who know how the system really works and do it themselves. If they were really good people, they'd agree with you that it isn't fair, and that being good in society should have its rewards, but it turns out only being a dick can you have rewards. Thinking of others doesn't get you anywhere in the life, and it makes me sick to realize.
OP, nobody ever said the path of righteousness would be the easy one. I do it simply because that's who I am. Not for the recognition or to get something in return. I am still learning how to not be a doormat to others though. I got to a point where I'm almost a hermit, I let very few people into my personal circle for fear of being abused. "Nice" people are so rare that when people spot us they go berserk. They feel they aren't "nice people" because that's so fucking hard to do, it is the work of saints. And that's why they are assholes. This is how they justify all their meanness. "Nobody can be that nice, this resilience is only for the heroes!". These days I had a friend tell me "Hey I love being around you, you inspire me. But to be honest when I stand by your side I can see my own flaws so much clearer and this sucks". It's like being a shiny plate among a pile of dirty dishes. We make the dirty dishes seem even dirtier, you get what I'm saying? We are going against the status quo. This world says: "Be an asshole. It doesn't really matter...because everyone else is also an asshole! This is asshole town, babe!". So when they see us they think "Ugh, fucking dumb bitch, why don't you conform?" Of course most of the world is against us. So what...does this change your position? Do you wanna deflect to their side?
>>16777896 you're making this fallacy where getting what you want or need to be fulfilled=being a dick
life is going to give you punches, like other people being better than you at something, or personality incongruities that cause painful ends to relationships, etc, but that's not other people aiming to harm you or you trying to harm them, that's just how life is. kind people, who you really should aim to be like, know that, and they're genuinely good to others despite doing what they have to do to get by. self-preservation is a fact of life, but you can helf others up after you're already there.
your definition of "nice" involves actively lowering yourself in order to let others step up, and you feel you owe this to them. you do not. you owe them respect as human beings. respecting them as people doesn't mean being a doormat. when people stop treating you with respect, self-preserve and do what's necessary. no one worth being around will judge you for it.
>>16779098 I used to think this way, anon, but the truth is that self preservation(I won't call it selfishness for personal reasons)/beatific behavior axis is incredibly skewed. Most people can only process one or the other and freak out when they see their opposite. It's not that "nice" people are rare, it's that people who are moderate on either axis are rare.
I get shit all the time for doing nice things for people. I guess some people just don't get it, because they themselves can't see themselves doing nice things for people so they think you have some kind of motive.
Being nice means you bottle up your thoughts and emotions for the sake of somebody else.
I think you should be kind, not nice. Treat people with respect, do good for others, but don't bottle up your feelings and stop yourself from communicating what you truly feel because you don't want to hurt somebody's feelings.
Fuck being nice.
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