My girlfriend is fairly opinionated and we end up discussing our views on fairly controversial topics a lot.
Thing is shes extremely liberal and I pretty much have my own views about anything so Id be a mixture. While its usually a difference in opinions and we have forever to work those out, she apparently made friends with a transgender.
We've already talked about gender so I suppose she really felt the need to convince here but i told her that theres no way we'd see eye to eye on arbitrary social constructs.
Now the problem is that I cant be friends with her friends and its clearly going to bring a rift between us. She probably knows it as well which is why she wants to convince me more so that usual.
How do people usually deal with things like this. Like if your SO suddenly made friends with a slave owner and she just didnt see anything wrong with having slaves. Its one thing if it just stops at opinions but the moment slaves actually come into the picture things suddenly become so much more urgent.
Im pretty sure that even though were both ignoring it now, its going to come back even harder when we are least prepared.
Like we really like each other, but do you guys think its best logically speaking to end it now before theres any hard feelings. Id rather remain on friendly terms with her than for serious drama to start.
Obviously if we were into hiding our opinions we wouldnt talk about controversial topics.
Also it goes further because shed have to live knowing that her friend isnt accepted.
Im not into making people choose between me and someone else.
You're angry at her because she has a friend who you're afraid of because they make you uncomfortable.
Tell her you're concerned because she's hanging out with "degenerates", you stupid fuck. That should clear up your problems pretty quick.
My gf has trans friends. I dont agree with it, but when theyre around I make nice.
My gf knows I dont play that but because I know how to be polite and Im not a shithead, everything is fine.
If choosing is happening, red flag.
tldr; tell her its either you or a tranny because you cant get over yourself.
congratulations! you can read!
>comes to 4chan
>bitches about not liking trannies
>"how do people deal with things like this"
what the fuck do you even want? someone to validate what you feel inside? You want conformation bias?
Either you argue with your gf about it, or you learn to live with it. Your question is answered, you can go home now.
So you came to /adv/ to ask for advice, you get it, then say thats not the right one.
By posting your need for advice here you obviously dont know squat. If you did youd pic related.
Ive been offered leadership positions solely based on this. You cant be at the head if you are afraid to speak.
its also what attracted my gf to me.
But Im happy so see that it makes you so insecure.
Are you a Muslim? You cant be open to being proven wrong if you think you hold the moral high ground in the first place.
Why come here, looking for input if youre just going to dispute it? Seeing as though you wont tolerate transgenders, what did you even come here for? None of us can magically make your gf stop being some sjw.
>You cant be open to being proven wrong if you think you hold the moral high ground in the first place.
Do you even know what a debate is? If it involves morals obviously youd think you have the moral high ground.
I didnt come here to talk about transgenders. And the only advice I got was some crappy
>pretend you arent who you are
If I ignored some solid advice I apologize for missing it. Please point it out.
>My girlfriend is fairly opinionated and we end up discussing our views on fairly controversial topics a lot.
>i told her that theres no way we'd see eye to eye on arbitrary social constructs.
> I cant be friends with her friends and its clearly going to bring a rift between us.
>Get told >>16704873
>get told >>16704887
>If you dont believe something then obviously you can pretend otherwise.
So why cant you just "pretend" to be okay with it?
>Later say "Im not about to accept any argument weaker than my own.", in direct contradiction of previous statement
>We've already talked about gender so I suppose she really felt the need to convince here but i told her that theres no way we'd see eye to eye on arbitrary social constructs.
>Like if your SO suddenly made friends with a slave owner and she just didnt see anything wrong with having slaves. Its one thing if it just stops at opinions but the moment slaves actually come into the picture things suddenly become so much more urgent.
By comparing the issue of 'genderism' to slavery, you equate your views on transgenderism to the immorality of slavery. What did that even mean? A slave owner (who has to have slaves to be a slave owner) who when there are actual slaves then it becomes an issue? Horribly worded example to even begin with. So the questioning of my literary capacity might not be something worth questioning if you cant assemble words into coherent thought to begin with.
>the problem is that I cant be friends with her friends and its clearly going to bring a rift between us.
ref again to >>16704873. Either you suck up your pride or end the relationship since
> shes extremely liberal
You might need to re-read this entire discussion and re-evaluate if you want to make yourself look more and more like a fool.
So where did I speak of imposing morals on her
>Later say "Im not about to accept any argument weaker than my own.", in direct contradiction of previous statement
Where exactly is the contradiction
>So why cant you just "pretend" to be okay with it?
Not going to pretend to be someone Im not.
>By comparing the issue of 'genderism' to slavery, you equate your views on transgenderism to the immorality of slavery.
You think slavery is immoral. Not everyone. You seem to think that only your moral views can be used.
I honestly dont see the point of this post.
please just go back and reread everything.
>You seem to think that only your moral views can be used.
So why wont you humor your SO for relationships sake?
You came here asking what do other people do and should you just end it.
Humor her if you like her as much as you say you do
Tell her her friends are degenerates
Choosing? Break it off.
Considering you focused on literal verbage more than on what was actually being said, I think youre just retarded or something. I dunno. If you wanted a nice, simple answer you should have taken your ass to reddit.
Thats what I do now. But I dont feel like that works forever.
>So why wont you humor your SO for relationships sake?
Not about to pretend.
I didnt realize you were trying to formulate and argument. It was so unorganized and had no logical context to anything said in this thread. Please try again.
Watch out. I think you made it mad. Go be a faggot somewhere else.
ask /pol/ for advice since you hate trannies and like slaves
It's the way you talk that so fucking... Unnatural? It's either that or you're a fedora lord trying to prove your superiority. Honestly all you've done is try and refute everyone's advice and make them out to be below you.
I think you're insecure and a manchild :\\\\
Whatever you think about being trans, comparing it to slavery is fucking absurd. Just ridiculous. It harms nobody else. If you can't shut the fuck up and be decent to somebody who's made some personal life choices you disagree with, then you. are. a. fucking. child.
You say Im trying to put you below me yet you try to belittle me with insults. Am I supposed to take you serious.
Try speaking your mind instead of pretending all the time and it becomes natural.
>Anyone who doesnt agree with me should be on /pol/
You're a faggot. Your girlfriend is a faggot. Nobody fucking cares what you think or what your retarded tumblerite girlfriend thinks. Put a bullet in your head and do us all a fucking favor
You're trying really hard to be a victim but fact is you're just a dick. You being yourself is just being a bonafide asshole.
You shouldn't be happy with yourself if you're so damn critical
Yes, and we know better, don't we, idiot? I'm not trans and not a trans activist and I can freely acknowledge that it affects nobody else to any significant degree.
This is your last chance to man up and admit you're in the wrong (not about the fucking legitimacy of trans people or whatever -- about your bad behavior.) I don't expect you'll do that; you're not coming across as particularly intelligent here and you obviously have a lot of growing up to do. Good luck with your relationship.
So by insulting the other people in the argument, by your logic you dont have an argument either?
no, people who spout moronic things are morons, again - as evident by this thread. This was my first post here just so we're clear
you're taking the concept of "how people see X" and substituting it for the argument "X is not harmful". The person you are responding to is not arguing the idea that "nobody sees being trans as harmful"; they are arguing that people who see trans as being harmful are WRONG.
Providing him with an analogous example where people also see something else as "not harmful" (even though we all agree it's really harmful) in an attempt to show that something can be harmful even when people don't *think* it is. This is fucking idiotic. He's not arguing some people out there don't think trans is harmful, he's arguing the actual non-harmfulness of it. You're side-stepping that point completely; what you're saying is of no logical value in the first place, and you're too stupid to understand this.
again, you being an illogical moron is evident by this thread. I bet your GF completely wrecks you every time you argue with her and you're too stupid to understand it. Must be frustrating for her.
>you're taking the concept of "how people see X" and substituting it for the argument "X is not harmful".
Never said that. Secondly, slave owners do not think it is harmful. It is exactly the same situation just with a different focus. It points out the difference of opinions. Can you not logically follow how analogies work
>you being an illogical moron is evident by this thread.
yet you cant even read an argument lol
>youre a dick
>youre a moron
>not ad hominem
I cant stop laughing.
I have a masters and a degree in philosophy. I dont see myself as better than others but if you cant support your arguments and voice then your actions speak louder than my unfounded belief that you are capable of critically thinking.
but thats what you did....
this was every blatant character/trait insult you posted. I made sure not to include the underhanded ones cause you might misunderstand what you wrote.
substantiate your claims. burden of proof is on you.
>mfw when 1st sem college smarter than a masters graduate
Not about to talk about my personal life.
You dont take on the burden of proof to reject an unfounded claim. Thats not how any logical conversation would work.
>mfw when 1st sem college smarter than a masters graduate
I remember when I was a 1st sem college student and thought I was smart. Youll learn that its the exact opposite eventually.
>You realize that slave owners think the same thing.
You can't substantiate that. I'd argue that most slave owners regarded their slaves as lesser humans, but still humans. But even assuming their moral gymnastics might have let them believe they weren't monsters for trading/ having slaves, they still would have to agree that their practice impacted other people (i.e. their slaves).
Becoming (or realizing you are) trans directly affects one person.
You're taking a personal claim you find weird or gross or scientifically questionable and comparing it to committing atrocities on other people.
For someone who presents himself as a critical thinker, you really suck at it.
And frankly, the fact that you can't get over this one little thing is really goddamn bizarre. So are the rest of her friends basically "perfect?" Are you in full agreement with the rest of them on all issues?
I bet not. I bet some of them have habits, characteristics, and opinions you disapprove of as well. But you're able to let those slide for the most part, right?
And it sounds like you haven't even met this person. How about you try that first? Just be fucking cool. For all you know, this trans is as arrogant and opinionated about their gender identity as most any "CIS" person is. So meet them and find out. If they're belligerently talkative about it, muh pronouns this and die cis scum that, then sure, you were right, and we will throw you a parade. But give them the chance. You might never agree with their gender self-assessment, but maybe you'll discover that it's not the divisive wedge you think it is as long as you can keep your righteousness in check.
Check it out, a fun and easy summary of what the ad hominem fallacy is and isn't! I'm so nice to you. http://laurencetennant.com/bonds/adhominem.html :)
As to your "masters" and "philosophy degree," I believe neither of those things. You're seriously arguing and communicating on the level of maybe a sixteen-year-old, and not a particularly bright or mature one, either. If you're being truthful, then man -- shut the fuck up for a minute and LISTEN. There's a reason SEVERAL PEOPLE in this thread have assumed you were a child. It's because you act like one. It's not that we're outmatched by your incredible intellect and are trying to shut you down -- it's just honest-to-god failure on your part.
If you're as old as you say you are (much less if you've gotten a Master's) then you must have learned the value of humility at some point. Try to recall it. Do the right thing for you and wise up; no skin off our collective nose if you don't.
You made the claim nigga! LOLOLOL
I need laughs like this from time to time. Laughing at manchildren is my ishhhh
It doesnt matter. You are free to assume whatever you like. A persons background has no influence on their argument.
If we didnt respect each others opinions we'd be tip toeing around each others feelings. The problem runs deeper in that its no longer just an opinion since it can have an effect on our lives.
Do I let her friend hang around our children. My family. Do I spend time with them?
You cant just agree to disagree on these topics.
I didnt ask her to stop being friends. I came here because the situation is more complicated than that. For now though Ive had no interaction with them.
>Becoming (or realizing you are) trans directly affects one person.
No. This is just an underdeveloped ideology. That person interacts with others and their choice can have a psychological impact on others. Its the same argument as whether or not its okay to expose kids to homosexuality.
You're in the wrong here.
It's one thing to disagree with someone's life choices, but to deny them a chance at your friendship is discriminatory.
I am religious, so I think that gayness and being transgender is against god's will.
But that does not stop me from having gay/transgender friends. Ultimately I believe that God is the only one capable of judging someone. Also, it's not like I am without my own faults and sins.
Also, your analogy does not make sense- a slave owner actively worsens the lives of other people. Being transgender only impacts the one person who is transgender.
What you're doing is much like someone who is sexist (thinks less of women) or racist (thinks less of a black person). You're discriminating against someone because of their identity, which is not very open minded.
Can you describe why you would feel uncomfortable hanging out with a transgender person? Does the ambiguity make you uncomfortable? Things that are not easily catagorized into our schema are often flat out rejected. But by engaging with and becoming tolerant of thes things that don't fit into our patterns, we become wiser and more open minded.
It's like when an infant experiences something that is "sticky" for the first time. Something like honey is not easily identifiable as a solid or a liquid, and the unique clingy was of it sets it apart from other foods. But after experiencing a sticky sensation, a new category is created.
>Being transgender only impacts the one person who is transgender.
Furthermore the slave owner analogy works because neither party sees anything wrong with it while the other does. The exact reasoning is not relevant to the scenario. You can distinguish between any two things based on the fact that they are not exactly the same. Thats not how you critique an analogy.
And again I never said she couldnt be friends with them. I dont know why you assumed I said so. I only said that of me.
>Can you describe why you would feel uncomfortable hanging out with a transgender person?
Do you really want this to turn into a discussion about transgender
I'm almost certain you don't have a BA or masters degree in philosophy. The fact that you refuse to tell us your age and what school you went to is a pretty good indicator that you're either just some punk kid or a 30 year old living in his mothers basement.
Honestly how is it personal info when you're just telling us the name of the college you went to on an anonymous website. I can't look you up bro
You guys have children together and your first thought after asking for advice is to end your relationship?
(OP, 5th reply, line 2, words 7-38)
> but do you guys think its best logically speaking to end it now before theres any hard feelings. Id rather remain on friendly terms with her than for serious drama to start.
I give up. You got me. 6.5/10. You trolled me.
so you didnt ask her to stop being friends, but you were thinking about splitting with the person you share kids with....
Theres nothing to see there. Its asking for unnecessary information to satisfy an unfounded opinion about me. Not telling someone personal information about you is not enough to make assumptions.
Same with anyone who harbors opinions different from your own. You don't have to be trans to think being trans is okay and relay that idea to other people.
And are you and others like you not out there expressing your counter-arguments on the subject, having that psychological impact on others? Being afraid of the other side freely expressing their view... sounds to me like another way of saying even you know you're wrong.
And that's still indirect affect, unless you think trannies capture people and give them forced sex changes or something.
The root of your argument draws into question the right to exist of anyone who disagrees with you or represents something you don't approve of. That's really fucked, bud.
That's not a realistic concern- it is more so the responsibility of the parent to raise their child to be able to recognize right from wrong. If you try to raise a child simply by not exposing them to "bad" things, then they won't know how to deal with them when you're not around. That's why a lot of kids spiral in the teen years, when their parents are not constantly watching them and bad influences are present.
Also, your analogy was BAD. "Apples are like sushi" is an analogy because both are food items. It would be better to say "apples are like mangos" (both fruit).
Yes. Understanding why you are so uncomfortable with transgender people is a good way to see your level of maturity. As I said earlier, I too reject transgender behavior- but I am not "uncomfortable" with it.
Rejecting something because it makes you uncomfortable without trying to understand or explore it is close minded, and your Gf is justified in being angry at you for acting like that. She would not be able to be angry at you if you were able to calmly and politely interact with transgender people while still staying firm in your beliefs.
Please post again with something of merit.
>Same with anyone who harbors opinions different from your own
Gonna stop reading here. Please let me know if you post had more to it the was worth reading despite the contradiction.
Opinions are something expressed. So it only matters if the person is preaching that slavery is good to kids. Not their inherent interaction.
>That's not a realistic concern
Underdeveloped ideology again. Society takes an active role in making sure the mind of children isnt effected. You dont let kids see XXX rated movies. If you expose you child to things deemed too much of a negative influence your child is take from you.
>It would be better to say "apples are like mangos" (both fruit).
No because apples are not mangos. Thats a dumb critique. Unless I specifically talking about fruits it doesnt matter.
So you just admitted that your intelligence, education, and gf are all opinions.
>Ive been saying opinion this entire thread.
If you claim otherwise, you admit to lack of control of basic diction and are therefore a hypocrite with your claims of perceived superiority.
Checkmate. GG homes.
Either youre a shitty troll, or an extremely autistic man child.
According to >>16705504 , you have to prove a reason to doubt my claims which youve stated in>>16705564 that you wont answer.
You will die sad and miserable one day, and you know it. You can shill all you want, but as you read this, you know it to be true. If you still dont think so, you still will.
>Never said that.
>goes on to repeat exactly that
>Secondly, slave owners do not think it is harmful. It is exactly the same situation just with a different focus. It points out the difference of opinions. Can you not logically follow how analogies work
I already responded to this in the post you're linking. What I said directly refutes what you're trying to say here and you're either playing stupid or being stupid. You're not directly answering the point, which was:
>He's not arguing some people out there don't think trans is harmful, he's arguing the actual non-harmfulness of it.
Telling us that slave owners think their slaves aren't harmed is totally irrelevant to whether or not slavery is *actually* harmful, and therefore tells us nothing about whether being trans is actually harmful. Your analogy is incoherent.
(and as someone else pointed out, the idea that slave owners didn't think that is just bullshit you're making up in the first place, you have no idea, it's not verifiable, it's probably not even true)
>theres no such thing as educated opinions
If you think opinions cant be wrong you need to think about how logic works.
>you have to prove a reason to doubt my claims
No, theres no blame game. If you make a claim like someones not over 18 without a good reason to the burden will always be on you until you do. You have to prove its a good reason. If you start something you have to do it right.
>Your analogy is incoherent.
No you just cant logically follow. I never said transgender is harmful. Thats not the point of the analogy. Its completely irrelevant whether or not it is because I never said slavery was bad because its harmful either. Youre building in assumptions which is why you cant follow the logic.
Nice way to concede youre wrong.
>No you just cant logically follow. I never said transgender is harmful. Thats not the point of the analogy. Its completely irrelevant whether or not it is because I never said slavery was bad because its harmful either.
Without the inherent harm of the SO's friend's activity of choice - whether it's being trans or owning slaves - there is no support for the conflict between you and your SO over it. We get your moral quandary over associating with something you don't like, but the analogy to slave ownership is equivocating bullshit and that's why you're getting shit on all over this thread.
And yes, you are a moron. And that's not an ad hominem because it's not being used to support an argument, it's just an aside/observation/insult.
>the analogy to slave ownership is equivocating bullshit
>it hurts my feelings
Theres no critique for the analogy that proves it fails. You cant arbitrarily pick at details of an analogy if the analogy works.
> there is no support for the conflict between you and your SO over it
This is only true if you are not in a relationship with the person. Once I have to interact with the person that no longer applies.
>Without the inherent harm of the SO's friend's activity of choice
Its not that hard to understand
Imagine your friend has graphic images of children being raped tattoo all over his body. Sure, its his choice what he gets tattoo'd but if he has to interact with society than its a completely different story. Id never let a child around that person and Im certain society would agree.
Do you think they are better?
Do you think you could prove to a slave owner that they are better?
For all you know I dont even think slavery is bad. Making assumptions like this is how you make a flawed argument extremely fast.
You need to decide which is more important. Develop some sense of tact, or move on.
I have similar opinions about the whole gender spectrum shit as you. The difference is I don't really hate the people who believe in it, but I just pity them. Would you hate someone you consider mentally ill with anything else, such as depression or bipolar?
So if a friend invites them over or whatever, I just focus on my own shit.
This thread is dumb.
You are such a raging Autist goddamn.
Hating transgendered people so much that you can't even be polite with them means you are one fucked up individual.
Politically I hate the far right and republicans, but I can be cordial with them and they can be cordial with me as well. That's what we do when we are adults. You obviously have way more animosity than I do, or you just don't give a shit about being polite. Either way you are a cunt.
>Imagine your friend has graphic images of children being raped tattoo all over his body. Sure, its his choice what he gets tattoo'd but if he has to interact with society than its a completely different story. Id never let a child around that person and Im certain society would agree.
This is still an equivocation, which you're using to try and imply that being trans is something that's wrong. Are you NOT saying that it's your opinion that being trans is wrong? Of course you are. But the analogy doesn't justify that opinion; it doesn't support the conclusion.
I dont hate anyone. But that applies to everyone meaning people like slave owners. I dont hate slave owners either. But being a slave owner will change the way I interact with you.
>Develop some sense of tact
I wouldnt trust anyone who would look someone in the eye and pretend that there was no issue. Youll be much happier if youre an honest person.
>I wouldnt trust anyone who would look someone in the eye and pretend that there was no issue.
>implying everyone in your life isn't doing this without your knowledge
honesty is not an excuse for being an asshole. If everyone went around telling you all the time what a faggot you were you'd probably not enjoy it much. thankfully for you people generally have tact like that.
>I wouldnt trust anyone who would look someone in the eye and pretend that there was no issue
I don't think you actually know what tact is.
>Are you NOT saying that it's your opinion that being trans is wrong
You really cant follow an argument. Its a direct contradiction to you argument
>Without the inherent harm of the SO's friend's activity of choice - whether it's being trans or owning slaves - there is no support for the conflict between you and your SO over it
Because it meets this requirement yet you agree that its wrong.
Your arguments arent sound which is why the analogy works.
> If everyone went around telling you all the time what a faggot you were you'd probably not enjoy it much.
My feelings arent that fragile. And it lets me know how you really feel about me. I appreciate honesty far for than someone smiling in my face.
Sensitivity in dealing with complicated issues. If someones tranny friend legitimately asked me for my thoughts, I'd tell her/him/whatever that I think they were mentally ill.
However, I don't feel the need to broadcast that fact for its own sake. Sure they're mentally ill, but so what? Should I cut contact with my friend who is bipolar, or make depression a deal breaker?
>Should I cut contact with my friend who is bipolar, or make depression a deal breaker?
Try reading an argument by Aristotle on friendship and what friendship actually means. I would sit idly by while any friend of mine was mentally ill.
in the case where an opinion may be inflammatory, then YES not sharing them is being civil.
If you know that your opinion is fucked up then just keep it to yourself, it's not that fucking hard. You don't have to agree or disagree, just be neutral
It debatably is. Its not for now but if left ignored problems could come down the line.
Shes far more reasonable than the people in this thread and shed probably end the friendship. But this isnt something thats a good sign of a relationship. If it happened when we were married then there would be no walking out.
I am shaking my head family
Sad post to be honest.