Just knocked up my 18 year old gf. I'm 28 and still not ready for this type of commitment. Even though I pleaded with her to get an abortion, she wont do it. She tells me that she's going to keep it with or without me in her life...so I've decided to bolt the state to avoid child support payments. I've got some friend who live out of state and I've made plans to go live with them.
My question is - can she still get me for child support? (pic not related)
She told me she was on the pills bro...I told her that I didn't want kids. The bitch trapped me. Yea, I feel bad for her but fuck...I'm not ready to be a dad. If she's gonna force it...then its all her.
I'm genuinely curious (not OP here).
Why isn't going with her to an government office and do the necessary paperwork? When such threads come up most would rather flee the country. Also how does it work if say the man don't want to pay but the women insists? How much say does she have?
You're an idiot. It's not "all her". There's going to be a child. That child will grow and learn and become an actual person. You don't have to like the child's mother or stay with her or think anything of her.
But you can still choose to not be a fucker regarding your future kid.
She has 100% of the say. All these young women feel responsible for another human life the instant they get pregnant no matter how bad of a decision it is for everyone involved. Honestly if my GF got pregnant and wouldn't abort it I'd bolt on the principle that she's fucking stupid for making such a bad decision. Then I'd be stuck with child support bills and she'd be stuck with no man and greatly diminished market value to get a man. Single mothers are a cancer upon society.
What do you mean "it goes both ways"? Did you read what I wrote? This is about a person, not about your freedom and pride. If you ever thought that there might come a time in your life where you can choose to not be a dick, it's now. And it doesn't matter what decisions other people made to put you there. You can choose to not accept reality, or you can try to make the best of it.
It's not about the gf, it's about the kid's life at this point.
You don't even have to fucking live with her, just send money so the child won't have a fucked up life. It's the bare minimum you can do.
When you chose to have sex, you knew the risks. You are old enough to deal with life.
I thought it was state to state?
There are so many worse of people in the world.
Sending money to some kid you have no emotional attachment to doesn't really make any sense.
It's different when you tried to make a kid and then got separated from the mother. In that situation it makes sense to keep the life style the kid is used to up.
When the woman traps the man to an unwanted child and the kid isn't even used to any particular lifestyle there is no real reason to do it.
Probably best to visit a lawyer first before committing into any particular escape plan.
>There are so many worse of people in the world.
"It's okay if I murder this one person and eat their corpse. I mean, Hitler killed 6 million and may have used their flesh to make candles and leather, am I right?"
Just because there are worse things doesn't mean doing bad shit is suddenly okay.
>Sending money to some kid you have no emotional attachment to doesn't really make any sense.
By having sex with someone, knowing that a child is a possibility, you literally become responsible for that child's life if it's born and doesn't get aborted or miscarried. No ifs, ands, or buts.
>It's different when you tried to make a kid and then got separated from the mother. In that situation it makes sense to keep the life style the kid is used to up.
It's only "different" because in that case, you would be the one who wanted the kid. You're just being selfish. Why should the child pay for the mother wanting to "trap" you?
>When the woman traps the man to an unwanted child and the kid isn't even used to any particular lifestyle there is no real reason to do it.
"Single mom lifestyle" generally doesn't work for anyone. If this kid turns out homeless or becomes the next Adam Lanza, it's basically on you. The fact that their mother is shitty enough to attempt to "trap " someone with a pregnancy shows you how well she can be trusted with a human life.
No. The best you can hope for is that the mother just wants you out of her life.
However, if she comes to a court asking for child support and they figured out you ran, they can restrict shit from you all across the nation.
Sucks for the kid, but yea you made the right move if she really did trap you. However if you were just being unsafe get fucked. And yes, it's going to take more than moving states to get out of child support.
And it was your decision to fuck her, fucktard. You should know that there is never a surefire way to prevent conception (besides abstinence). Just get an onahole like all the other losers if you aren't mature enough to handle the consequences of fucking a real girl.
You are doing bad shit right now by not giving everything you own and sending it to africa
The difference between your starwman and my post is that murder is actively making someone else be worse of while what OP is doing is just ignoring the situation the same way you ignore all other suffering all the time.
>knowing that a child is a possibility
He couldn't reasonably expect that and there was intentional deceiving involved too.
With anything else besides a kid this would automatically be under fraud and OP would win.
>You're just being selfish. Why should the child pay for the mother wanting to "trap" you?
And you are just selfish for not selling everything and helping the poor and the orphans.
>t's basically on you.
You could pay for it instead if you care so much.
Wow. The kid's better off without you if that's how you actually feel.
Anyway, your gf says that she's keeping the kid, but is she insisting that you'l pay child support? Because she could just leave your name off the birth certificate. It's possible for her to still have the child without making you legally obligated to pay.
Have you talked to her about this?
Abstinence? Unless we're talking about alcohol abuse, I thin you mean celibacy? And I love your double standards...women get all the pity and the guys has to bear all the responsibility for the actions of two individuals. Typical.
Please use Google.
Right. By paying his share, he is carrying ALL of the weight of supporting the child. You're really smart, I didn't think of that. I forgot that moms just sit there and do nothing and never spend a dime on their children. Oops.
I'm a different anon but read the literature. Even with perfect use, the pill isn't 100% effective; Nothing is. On top of that, being sick, throwing up, taking it even a few hours late, all interfere with it's effectiveness.
It's his fault for having sex not knowing that there is ALWAYS a 1 in 1,000 possibility of a kid unless he gets himself sterilized.
Regardless of if she did everything perfect, he put her dick in her and participated in making this kid. A real man owns up here.
All the responsibility you say? Child support doesn't pay everything unless the father is rich. Who is going to do all of the thousands of things that parents do for their children for the next 18 years. Cut me a fucking break, martyr.
To be honest, you should go to court and spin this as a "man's right to choose" thing. Maybe it would even get national attention.
If I ever knocked up a girl I didn't want to have kids with it's what I would do. Because it really is fucked that woman are allowed to have abortions and total reproductive control, but if a woman lies to a man he is basically fucked.
You might change history!
There is no share he ows. He didn't make any promises and didn't want the kid. He didn't promise the kid any particular living standard.
The mother made all the decisions and OP offered his contribution.
Only thing I would be willing to pay would be cost of abortion because that is what he actually ordered.
Abortion is 100% effective.
If for some reason the pill failed and neither parent wanted a child (if the woman did want one why is she on a pill) you can always get an abortion.
The difference is the deception.
A real woman doesn't deceive.
>Abortion is 100% effective.
>If for some reason the pill failed and neither parent wanted a child (if the woman did want one why is she on a pill) you can always get an abortion.
Completely ignoring any moral/ethical arguments whatsoever:
> it is important to be aware of the following risks:
Gee. I wonder why anyone would ever hesitate
How is a pregnancy deception? She took measures against it, it wasnt foolproof, and she is against abortion. There is nothing deceptive about it. "Trapping" is some bullshit OP is making up. He willingly stuck his dick in raw, she didnt turkey baste up a kid.
Jesus fuck, you sound like my mother...who'm I haven't told yet.
Bro, you get to continue to live your life however you want, you just have to pay a bill every month. This woman's entire life will change and will soon be 5x harder, and she is not here whining about it. She's not even demanding that you be part of the child's life or her life in any way. Cry more.
When you call her and tell her that 1. Moms sit on their ass and do nothing and 2. You are skipping town in an effort to avoid paying child support, please record the conversation and upload it to YouTube. The world needs more entertainment.
Where are you getting that 50% figure from? Have you done any research about how your state calculates this?
Let's just skip all the arguments about you being morally bankrupt and cut to the end: You can go to jail for not paying it. If you run, they will find you eventually. So man up and don't run away from the problem like a scared rabbit.
You are calling the act of PAYING A MONTHLY BILL "getting your life destroyed". For fuck's sake it's not the end of the damn world. They can't take so much that you're forced to live as a hobo.
Because victim should be paying anything.
And they totally can take enough to destroy your lifestyle.
>you just got raped
>now you just have to pay the rapist a weekly sum of rape money
You can choose to do whatever the hell you want in any country in the world, because mind control is not real. You will, however, have to pay consequences for your actions. Do I really have to explain this more?
You're NOT taking any responsibility for the kid. You're paying a bill for the result of something you did. Run your car into a light pole? You pay a fine to get it fixed. Father a child and don't wish to raise it? You pay child support.
I can't fathom how someone can go through 28 years of life and not come to terms with this.
>only one who has to suffer
No, see, if he doesn't pay the child suffers. He made a conscious decision to fuck. Every human learns in grade school that babies can happen when you fuck. The baby did not choose to be born. We have a situation where either the father 'suffers' by having to pay a bill, or the child suffers by not having enough food to eat. And if you ever took even a basic course in law, you would know that courts and lawmakers will always look after the wellbeing of children first over that of adults. Because children are innocent.
>pill that prevents pregnancy if taken correctly
>tells bf it's okay to go raw
>bf trusts her to know how to take medication
>somehow it's the bf's fault
Your realize it's 99% effective and not 100% is because of human error right?
She could be religious. Whatever the reason, just because she wants to keep the kid doesn't mean she planned on having one right now. Surely you don't think that every child ever born was planned?
>>get told shes on the pill
>>actually wan't and intends to trap to child support
The only hint of a suggestion of we have of this is from a guy who was too dumb to realize that:
1.) The pill is not 100% effective
2.) Child support enforcement is FEDERAL as well as local
3.) He can go to jail for not paying it
and is a 28 year old actually seriously talking about dumping and blaming all his problems on an 18 year old and running away to let her deal with it.
Not the most reliable source to say the least.
100% effectiveness is not biologically possible for any medicine. Sometimes, to put it scientifically, shitnjusu happens. As you can read about with two seconds of google searching, or on any pamphlet that comes with every pack of birth control pills, they're 99.something% effective when used perfectly and 92% effective when used typically.
1) You should've had the "what do we do if pregnancy happens?" discussion with your girlfriend when you started having regular sex. If you have different ideas on what you would want, don't take the risk.
2) You're 28 and you can't afford child support? What state are you in?
3) If the consequences of sex are life-ruiners for you, here's a thought: wear a fucking condom. Unless you used a contraceptive of your own, this is more your fault than it is hers, because you made the contraceptives entirely her responsibility. What did you do on your end to prevent this? All contraceptive methods can fail, so double up. Especially if you're the one that's more hurt for the failure.
4) Fleeing the state will probably not work. Talk to her about what she expects. She might not expect child support, though that could change years down the line.
5) Talk to a lawyer. /adv/ can only do so much.
What religion makes you lie about contraceptives and makes you get into single mother situations for child support.
>blaming all his problems
The only problem he has blamed is the said trapping which is objectively her fault.
I don't see how the age plays into part there.
Should he have insisted on blood tests to confirm pills were indeed taken?
Or use condoms anyway and not trust his significant other?
>Or use condoms anyway and not trust his significant other?
To be honest, even if I did, it sounds like he's the type who would accuse her of poking holes in them, not realizing that THOSE aren't 100% effective either.
You sound like that too.
>He couldn't reasonably expect that
he put his penis in a vagina and ejaculated. The pill is not 100% foolproof, even if she was lying.
Reasonableness is a legal term. It doesn't mean whatever you want it to.
Catholics are very strongly against abortion, which is what I was obviously talking about. This "trapping" is speculation and nothing more. Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. We, alas, cannot speak to her nor read her mind. But we do know the law, which says you pay child support or go to court and eventually jail. Nothing we say or speculate changes that.
I am going to tell you what I intend on telling my son about sex when he becomes a teenager.
Regardless of protection, regardless of careful planning, regardless if you do everything right or she told you she was on the pill or she lied to you through her teeth and is an awful person that deceived you...
If you take the chance to put your dick in her, then statistically it COULD happen. Always be prepared for that sobering fact that you are playing russian roullette with a 300 round revolver where 299 of the bullets are orgasms and 1 bullet is a life changing commitment.
Don't be a nigger and do the right thing if that happens to you. I taught you better than that son.
You realize that means shit right? It's because people don't use it correctly.
>99.9% if used correctly
Nothing in the world is 100%. When something says 99% that means the same as 100. It's the same reason hand sanitizer says it kills 99.9% of germs because there's no possibility of getting all of them... Pls
>Abortion is 100% effective.
Do you just say whatever dumb shit pops into your head?
Is this b8, or are you honestly this ignorant
>woman gets raped
LOOK AT WHAT SHE WAS WEARING
WHY WAS SHE IN THAT PART OF TOWN
SHE SHOULD HAVE KEPT AN EYE ON HER DRINKS
>man gets "tricked" into having unprotected sex
HOW DARE YOU TELL HIM THAT HE SHOULD HAVE USED A CONDOM OR GOTTEN AN OPERATION
HE SHOULDNT HAVE TO SHOW ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR HIS DECISIONS
Either you make payments and the father suffers
Or you don't make payments and the child suffers
Its a shitty situation, but you have to look at the totality of the circumstances. The child's upbringing is more important than the father's happiness, and the judiciary of virtually every civilized nation agrees
If you don't like it, get into legal reform.
It's kind of unfair.
I mean if the woman gets pregnant and wants an abortion, and the man is against it, then she STILL gets to make the final call.
Then if the man isn't ready she STILL gets to make the final call.
This is why I keep my frozen sperm in labeled jars. So that I can get a vasectomy and still reproduce at some point.
I just don't understand, I mean women are pretty much omnipotent when it comes to these matters, and you guys think that's okay?
What happened to equality? Not tumblr shit where wymyn bitch about such mundane things it feels like satire, but actual equality where you can't bring another human into existence unless both involved parties want to.
Imagine how much better it would be if people had to terminate pregnancies unless both parents wanted to go through with it.
>b-but I don't want to back a dad
>the bitch trapped me, bro
It takes two to tango, hombre, and everyone knows that the pill isn't 100 percent, so you played Russian roulette with your dick and lost. Just admit to yourself that you're a scumbag and the only redemption is making sure that your child doesn't go wanting. You're 28, it's time to stop being human garbage.
>The childs upbringing is more important than the fathers happiness
Alright OP. I've been posting since you started this thread and it's time to turn in. I'm glad most of /adv/ has common sense, <3 u guyz. To sum up the points I've made, in case you've forgotten:
1. We learn in grade school how babies are made
2. We learn in high school that no form of contraception is 100% effective
3. She may or may not have intentionally trapped you, but it does not matter either way because:
4. Paying child support is the law
5. We need to follow the law or face the consequences of breaking it
6. They will find you if you run
7. Having to pay a bill is not the end of your life
8. If you don't pay, the child is a victim
9. The law will always look out for the needs of the children over yours
10. You will not be forced to pay more than you can reasonably afford
11. Read the information at the links I posted
12. You're an idiot and a coward
13. I'm still amazed that you're 28
Good day sir
>Imagine how much better it would be if people had to terminate pregnancies unless both parents wanted to go through with it.
Just so we're clear, you're talking about forcing a person to undergo invasive surgery without receiving their consent?
Because as I pointed out here >>16644288 children are innocent. It's morally wrong to let them suffer for something things had no control over. And we need happy healthy children to grow up into happy productive adults and continue the human race.
the best interests of the child is a widely respected legal doctrine
In addition, the child is literally blameless
The father still took a calculated risk by having unprotected sex
Those are the plain facts
If she said she is willing to be a mother with or without you, talk to her and give up your parental rights. That's the only sure way.
If she has your social security number or current address, you're screwed.
He's being raised by a single mother who already has shitty morals and will not get to grow out of them since she has to take of a kid now.
Not even now. In a few months. Right now it's not a he or she, it's an "it", a collection of life-ruining cells.
Wouldn't it be better for the child if it was actually wanted by both parents?
Because otherwise chances are that a weekly child support payment isnt going to help it much.
>It's better than an invasive payment/responsability the rest of your life.
> it is important to be aware of the following risks:
So basically what you're saying is:
Your $ > Her life.
>It's kind of unfair.
It really is, but it's shitty situation all around and nobody really wins. Its about harm reduction at this point.
The man and woman both make their decision when they have unprotected sex. Even in cases of fraud, the man still made a conscious decision to risk the chance of conception.
That risk carries a degree of moral blameworthiness. The father cannot escape responsibility to the detriment of the child.
But why are men only taking such a risk?
If a man wanted to keep the child then he either would not be able to convince the women to do so, OR he would end up having to absolve the women of parental responsability.
It's bullshit. Just because it's the law doesn't mean it isn't bullshit.
All this does is create a bunch of children with fucked up home lives, because they are simultaneosly blamed for the absense of their father from the mothers side AND blamed for the low quality of life from the fathers side.
It's detrimental to the child. Being unwanted fucks people up and nobody will want this child.
>nobody will want this child
The mother wants this child. Being raised by one parent is far from ideal but it's not a guarantee you'll be fucked up. Besides, she's only 18, shell likely find and marry someone else eventually.
>But why are men only taking such a risk?
I didn't say that. The woman takes an equal risk when she has unprotected sex, and she shares the responsibility of raising it should conception occur.
You act as if child support absolves a woman of all responsibility. Do you think a check in the mail is going to raise a kid for 18 years?
>Do you think a check in the mail is going to raise a kid for 18 years?
Haven't you heard? There was a singularity at a paper mill about 10 years ago and ever since then, checks have had sentience. That's why people have been using them less and less. When was the last time you saw someone fill them out? They're not around much anymore because the checks have all gone off to raise children.
>But why are men only taking such a risk?
You have a very one track mind
The woman took a risk, and now she is literally raising the child.
The man took the exact same risk, and you think that he should somehow be absolved of all responsibility?
Your logic is flawed.
I hate it when feminists say "be a man". But OP. It's time for you to grow the fuck up. How would you feel if your father ditched you because he didn't want to raise you? While I think it's unfair that you don't have a say in abortion, life is unfair as fuck. Either
A. Take this shit to court and talk about "Man's right to choose"
B. Be a fucking man and raise your god damn child. We have to many fuck ups in this world, and do you really want your child to be surrounded by in and out step daddies for the rest of his/her life?
Don't be a fucking selfish pussy. You stuck your dick in without a condom. You fucked up. Life is unfair. Accept it. Don't leave an emotional void that will scar your child for the rest of their life. RAISE YOUR CHILD YOU FUCKING CUNT.
Exactly this. If the mother wants to keep the child against the father's wishes, she should have the sole responsibility of taking care of the child.
Unfortunately, there are only two forms of birth control available to guys at the moment: a condom, and a vasectomy. And getting a vasectomy when you're young enough that a child would fuck up your life and you aren't yet financially independent is nearly impossible; many doctors will actually turn you away from the procedure, because when the time comes that you might want to have a child, you will be unable to.
>But that's her choice...not his.
The father and mother both make the choice to have unprotected sex
The father and mother both risk the conception of a child
The father and mother both share the responsibility for their actions
>found a woman whom you love
>she actually wants your child
>you engaged in risky behavior and want to not only flee the consequences, but you want to disown your woman and your child
desu lad just kill yourself
you're probably a nigger
Thats why you should always freeze your sperm and keep it in a locked mini fridge.
God, it's like noone listens to me.
Hmmm maybe I've been on 4chan too much lately.
I personally think raising someone elses child is a stupid, stupid, stupid decision.
But at the same time I am glad someone made that stupid, stupid, stupid decision, and gave you the chance to experience having a father.
I don't know. I wouldn't do it, ever. But I'm glad someone did it for you.
>He does not want thi
And this absolves him of all moral responsibility? If he didn't want it, then he didn't need to stick his cock in a vagina and cum.
You understand that there are entire legal schools dedicated to unintended consequences of necessary risks? What is negligence.
And I think we're all in agreement that the father should have more say, but at the same time it's a very tricky thing because pregnancy and abortions affect a woman's health and could end her life. End thread.
By the logic of
>if he didn't want to deal with the responsibility of having a child, he shouldn't have had sex
>if she didn't want to deal with the responsibility of having a child, she shouldn't have had sex
Having a baby carried to term can also cause complications for the mother, up to and including death. What are the risk rates of childbirth compared to those of an early-term abortion?
she is dealing with the responsibility of having a child
she is raising the thing for 18 years
You are suggesting that a man, who took the exact same risk, should be able to absolve himself of all responsibility. That isn't equality.
OP didn't provide enough details about the entire situation and chose to focus on where the situation puts him.
Can you tell us what she said about this?
In my opinion, if she decides to keep it because she wants a child and OP doesn't, then he should be able to walk away since he did not agree to this.
Then your brother must make a lot of money.
Turner vs. Rogers Supreme Court case. Involved a man jailed several times for not paying his 50-some dollar a week child support. The case revolved around his claim that he did not get proper legal support.
If you turn child support into an "opt in, opt out" system, then that defeats the entire purpose.
Who is going to run out on the mother and THEN choose to pay child support? You niggers lack critical thinking skills.
That's very kind of you to say, thank you. You might understand if you ever have a niece or nephew and start to love them despite them not being your own child. Love is very powerful and makes the sacrifices you make for those you love not seem so bad.
You ignored my central point. Yes, she is raising thee child for 18 years, because she is CHOOSING to.
If she chose to not want to raise the child, she could have an abortion. Are there risks? Yes. Are there risks if she decides to carry the child to term? Also, yes. By your own logic, she chose to take on those risks when she had sex.
The man had gone into the act, knowing that if given the choice, he would not have a child. But he did not get that choice - the choice rests entirely on the woman and what she wants done.
Again, by your own logic - if you are the one who makes the decision, you should be prepared to accept the responsibility of that decision. If you know the father doesn't want anything to do with this child, you should not be expecting support from the father.
Let me put this another way - some states have laws that the father of a child must pay child support, even if all the father did was be a sperm donor. One case, for example, had a lesbian couple who wanted to conceive a child, but were obviously unable to. So, they enlisted the help of a sperm donor - whom they later sued for child support. Is this fair to the donor?
If you have read thread and had two brain cells to string together, you would know IT IS NOT YOUR CHOICE. IT IS THE LAW. YOU WILL GO TO JAIL IF YOU DON'T PAY IT.
I didn't like having to pay a bullshit speeding ticket a few months ago. Too fucking bad, still have to pay it. Either take it to court to challenge the law (as has been said more than once in this thread) or grow the fuck up and accept the consequences of your actions.
>You are suggesting that a man, who took the exact same risk, should be able to absolve himself of all responsibility. That isn't equality
But a woman can, m8. And then the cycle continues about how it's her body, her choice. That thing in her body is only 50% hers if you're claiming that "they both need to take responsibility....for equality...." , and a zygote/embryo/fetus is not even actually her "body."
He did not get swindled by anyone. He took a chance that had a risk of a negative outcome, and is now whining about said negative outcome. If he really does not want to pay child support he can sue for sole custoday and get it off her.
So, do you believe that before they began she said to him "By the way, if by some chance I do get pregnant, I am definitely going to carry the child to term"?
I guarantee that he would have second thoughts about having sex if that was said explicitly. A lie by omission is still a lie - if she knew he didn't want a child, it was dishonest of her to not inform him that she intended to carry any child to term.
A woman can choose to terminate and absolve both herself and the father of responsibility. This gets sticky with issues of bodily integrity and medical consent.
Regardless, you're suggesting that the father has the right to absolve himself ALONE from all responsibility and place it 100% on the mother.
Access to abortion does not afford this same right to women. They cannot place 100% of the burden on the father.
There is never a single unwanted pregnancy case where the father is 100% blameless. He made the decision to have inportected sex and he risked childbirth.
Why should the child (who is morally blameless) suffer to the benefit of the father, who took an unnecessary risk?
>One case, for example, had a lesbian couple who wanted to conceive a child, but were obviously unable to.
What's the case name? What court level? Have you read the judgment? Was it appealed?
Little blurbs like this don't help anybody
Oh...mesa be sorry massa! Me be a good nigga and pay muh child support or da popo's get muh ass.
That's not true.
My friend has to pay child support now because a crazy girl put his cum inside herself.
He didn't even get to bang her and he has to pay child support because the baby has his genes. The system is fucked and you shpuld all know by now that it is fucked.
Do you really think getting an abortion is like going to a day spa to get a pedicure or something? It is NOT easy to get an abotion and in fact it is getting more and more difficult. It does NOT resolve any "responsibilities". It is a majorly traumatic surgery that has irreversible consequences.
Because clearly the story here is that she turkey basted herself without his knowledge.
I believe that as someone who is TEN YEARS OLDER THAN HER he should have gone and had his tubes snipped if he did not ever want children, and told her that he has zero intention of having any deeper relationship with her than a sex toy.
Do you know how utterly fragile sperm is? The second it hits the condom, or the air, it's dead. It's not physically possible for conception to happen without sex, outside of a lab. Your friend be lyin'.
>Regardless, you're suggesting that the father has the right to absolve himself ALONE from all responsibility and place it 100% on the mother.
Yes. The mother has the ability to absolve herself of the responsibility if she chooses, the father does not. I am suggesting the father should be afforded the same rights as the mother already has.
>Access to abortion does not afford this same right to women. They cannot place 100% of the burden on the father.
Are you suggesting a law which, based on a man's desire to have a child against a woman's wishes, forces a woman to carry a child to term?
the woman may be rendered infertile, subject to constant miscarriages, or even serious medical complications leading to death. Also, an abortion is not 100% effective. She may well just end up with a severely disabled child from a botched abortion.
>I am suggesting the father should be afforded the same rights as the mother already has.
You are not suggesting this. You are suggesting that child support ought to be an opt-in system, and that the father have the right to force 100% of the resposibility onto the mother.
The mother doesn't not have the right to force 100% of the responsibility onto the father.
>Are you suggesting a law which, based on a man's desire to have a child against a woman's wishes, forces a woman to carry a child to term?
Of course not. That would violate bodily integrity.
But that's her body, her choice? So if she says it's okay then it's okay.
Meanwhile, if a man gets severely hurt at a job he had to take to not be in debt to child support to a child he didn't want. EQUALITY.
hmm, that's a sticky one
It sounds like a the purpose here was to prevent unregulated sperm donation and unregulated adoption. I don't think that a parent should be able to contract out of obligations to a child.
Regardless, its an area ripe for legal debate. The moral blameworthiness of a father providing sperm for a separate couple is virtually nil.
>Woman should be allowed to force her desire to have a child onto a man
>Man should not be allowed to force his desire to have a child onto a woman
This is the imbalance which we are getting at. Yes, you are right in that I am suggesting child support should be opt-in. If the man wants to interact with the child in any capacity, that would give an incentive for him to want to pay for the child's care. If the man wants to give up any claim to the child legal or otherwise and just walk away, he should have that ability, provided he stays away.
>If the man wants to give up any claim to the child legal or otherwise and just walk away, he should have that ability
Well being of the child trumps any financial desires of the father. You might feel differently, but the judiciary disagrees.
Hell, the SCC recently declared a it fundamental principle of justice, with all the constitutional protections that guarantees.
This thread is everyone grinding OP for his situation.
Remember when this board was for adults who actually give advice rather than "die in a fire; you're a horrible person".
Every fucking thread. Just give him helpful advice to the best of your knowledge.
If you don't want to help OP, fine, but don't reply 100 times with shit that he didn't ask for.
Dude, you're fucking 28. Stop being such a moron and get the grip of your life, that's what you get for dating an inexperienced and naive 18 yo girl. She can get you for child support no matter the state, and please don't play the victim with that "oh she trapped me, she told me she was on the pill.. as it was your choice to cum inside her, you fucking manchild.
You can frame it two different ways if you want to make this about equality between men and women. It's not going to do any good to go back and forth.
At the end of the day, you're suggesting that the father's interests trump the interests of the child. The child is blameless, where the father's negligence resulted in conception.
Sorry man, that's quite the run of bad luck. I don't blame you for jumping state lines. I have no clue what I would do in your shoes, and I can't guarantee it would be 'hurr durr stand by her and be a man' so I won't judge you.
My advice is to seek legal advice from a qualified person, possibly anonymously until you are sure they won't just fuck your shit up.
Congratulations, you've resorted to quoting the legal system. You are now technically correct - which, as we all know, is the best kind of correct.
And if this discussion was happening 100 years ago, a woman wouldn't have been allowed to participate in the discussion at all.
And if you smoke pot, you deserve to be arrested and incarcerated, you disgusting druggie.
The legal system is a set of rules put out by some guy somewhere. It is not infallible, and in many cases it is ethically and morally wrong. If you are resorting to saying "Well, this is the way it is because our laws say so," there's not much further to discuss.
take notes boys this will be your future if you date women. they will lie to you about being on the pill or even sperm jack you. also you have no saying if you want the kid or not and you are force to pay child support.
>The legal system is a set of rules put out by some guy somewhere.
Do you understand how the judiciary works? Why do you think the laws are different now than they were 100 years ago?
The common law is constantly evolving as judges interpret reasoned arguments and encounter new scenarios. Seriously, go read an SCC or a SCOTUS decision. They eloquently set out the logic and principles behind any law that is applied or amended.
In this case, the logic isn't all that complicated
1. The child is blameless
2. The father is not blameless, as he took an unnecessary risk by having unprotected sex
3. Therefore, it does not make any sense to put the interests of the father ahead of the interests of the child
>the women is equality irresponsible
and she shares the responsibility for raising the child
You're suggesting that the father be able to dump 100% of the responsibility onto the mother. How is that equality?
>all these sexists trying themselves in knots trying to explain away the legal inequality faced by men
>b-but the all powerful penis!
Its be funny if it wasn't so sad. Enjoy the chum.
>all these sexists trying themselves in knots trying to explain away the legal inequality faced by men
How do you suggest remedying this legal inequality without turning the child into the victim?
it's her fucking fault for acting like a fucking child and not getting abortion while knowing that there's a chance that this guy will GTFO and that she will have to raise this child alone you fucking retard, take responsibility for your actions my goddamn ass
>Implying a vasectomy will protect you from a false rape.
i rather not have anyone touch my dick and not have sex then to deal with the shit women pull on men. all women carry a loaded gun and they can use the laws against you to have you arrested and ruin your life forever.
We at least agree that what you refer to as "the child" here is a victim in these circumstances. But the father is also a victim in these circumstances. Your solution is that the child is innocent and thus all negative consequences should be placed on the father to spare the child.
Here's the thing though - when discussing abortion, it's not a child we're discussing. It's a ball of cells smaller than your fingernail - a tiny parasite, nothing more. Does that ball of cells have life? Sure. Does it have the ability to develop into a living, breathing, thinking person? Sure. Is it currently a person? Absolutely fucking not. If it was, abortion of any kind would be illegal. In fact, you can't get an abortion past a certain timeframe, once the fetus has reached a sufficient level of development.
So, when the mother is deciding whether or not to have an abortion, she is deciding whether to sacrifice the father's immediate well being for the sake of a potential child. Well, what if that father isn't ready now to have a child, and thanks to child support payments will never be? Consider instead, had the child been aborted, maybe the father would have been able to secure a much more stable position in his life, from which he is able to comfortably support a wife and child? What about a wife and two children? Would that circumstance not be preferable to forcing him to financially support part of one child, but otherwise be absent from his life, which might lead to resenting the child and in turn being resented by the child?
Point is, at the time of the decision to get an abortion or not, we are only dealing with possibilities. The child could be stillborn, freeing the father from an obligation he didn't otherwise want. Alternately, that one child might be taking the resources that the father had which could have otherwise been put towards a child who would be much better taken care of, or even multiple children.
and why should he give a shit? there are a shitload of people suffering in this world, why don't you give half of your wage to one of them, like one of those poor kids living in broken homes? or to that poor hobo that wants to get a job but hey he doesnt even have any fucking money to eat?is there any difference morally speaking other than the fact that there's the bias of your kid having your DNA? fight the fucking power OP, or else this world will never change. these fucking bitches have to realize they have to man up and stop being selfish and egocentric. if she doesn't want to get an abortion, fuck her. and everything that concerns her.
These are all things that a mother ought to consider when thinking about an abortion. But this decision is not wholly separate from the decision not to have unprotected sex. Abortion is just another form of birth control that she is neglecting to take advantage of.
This decision does not absolve the father of his decision to forgo birth control and take an unnecessary risk. He contributed to the risk and he bears the responsibility for the consequences, even if he was not a party to the final decision.
In a perfect world a woman would not choose to bring a child to term against the father's wishes. But the world isn't perfect, and there needs to be a system in place to account for the well-being of the child.
>and why should he give a shit?
he doesn't have to give a shit
If I get speed and hit somebody with my car, it doesn't matter if I don't give a shit about them. I took an unnecessary risk, and the legal system is there to ensure that I take responsibility for the consequences.
>fight the fucking power
How do you plan on doing this? You working towards a legal degree?
You do realize your arguments are used by people who think abortions should be entirely illegal, right?
>they decided to have unprotected sex
>there needs to be a system in place to account for the well-being of the child
>therefore outlaw abortions
>there needs to be a system in place to account for the well-being of the child
And you've got it backwards here. Abortion is a system put in place to account for the well-being of the child. No suffering where there is no child in the first place.
To apply the same logic to child support, you're stuck between two negative outcomes.
a) you give the father the ability to force the mother to undergo surgery, violating longheld principles of bodily integrity
b) you give the father the ability to absolve all of his obligations to the child, turning the child into the victim
My point in
was that while we are talking about concrete financial integrity, we are talking about potential bodily integrity. A potential bodily integrity that, as my post went on to say, could threaten the potential bodily integrity of two or more beings.
And while the "substance" of the argument may be different, the logic is the same, which - as you claimed - is what the laws are based on after presenting such logic in well laid out documents handed down by the higher echelons of courts.
And what about cases when the father does responsibly use birth control, and it fails? Especially given that the methods of contraception available to men are both vastly more limited than the ones available to women, and barring vasectomies, less effective?
I think you're confused, anon
Bodily integrity in this case refers to the mother's ability to consent to surgery. It doesn't have anything to do with the fetus or the kids.
>could threaten the potential bodily integrity of two or more beings.
You're getting way too remote here.
>And what about cases when the father does responsibly use birth control, and it fails?
That's a really shitty situation, but it doesn't mean the father is blameless. The only way for the father to be blameless is if he didn't fuck the woman in the first place. There is your 100% effective birth control, and its available to everybody.
The child should not bare the harm if the father is not moral blameless.
>Bodily integrity in this case refers to the mother's ability to consent to surgery
Then you're missing my argument - that "bodily integrity" could refer to the well being of the fetus, and anyone making a general argument against any kind of abortion would make such a claim.
>could threaten the potential bodily integrity of two or more beings.
>You're getting way too remote here.
That is exactly my point. The bodily integrity of the fetus is all potential and a remote possibility, whereas the certainty of financial strain is concrete. A concrete strain should take precedence over a potential strain, and if you disagree with that, then refer to my previous example where your potential strain of one child would place an even greater potential strain on two children at a later time.
>the father is somehow to blame
>for the mother's sole decision to bring a child into the world
this is a joke right? let me guess
>she should have kept her legs together, shit wait i mean he should have kept it in his pants which is totally different
>The bodily integrity of the fetus is all potential and a remote possibility
And when the mother does not consent to an abortion, it becomes a virtual certainty (barring complications)
Regardless, the father isn't paying child support until after the child is born. Concrete financial burden for the concrete wellbeing of a concrete child.
>I negligently hit a guy with my car
>he's paralyzed from the neck down
>the doctor tells him about a surgery that could cure his paralysis, but it could also kill him
>the man decides not to get the surgery
am I still to blame for this man's paralysis?
You're a fucking pathetic manchild, OP. If choose to run away from fatherhood then I hope your child finds you one day, a sad ,scraggly old man, and beats the shit out of you. You are just one big shame.
Given that 90% of the time, maybe more, that humans have sex, it's for recreation, with pregnancy being almost the furthest thing from their minds, I have a hard time accepting the "well, it was his fault for screwing around!" line. Especially so given that we've known of better birth control options for men -- almost 100% effective, apparently side-effect free, idiot-proof and cheap -- for several decades, and they still haven't hit the market because pharmaceutical companies have declined to fund them as they're not very lucrative. For one example, if you haven't heard of it, google for 'vasalgel.'
People are going to have sex for pleasure. That's a really deep and instinctive behavior. It's not going anywhere. I think it's morally problematic to expect people to act against instincts that are that strong. When safe methods exist for making practically inevitable behavior almost risk-free, and we as a society have completely failed to push for those methods to become available, I think the blame for such accidents falls upon all of us. Not just the men in question.
>My question is - can she still get me for child support?
Somebody on here last week in almost same situation as you said they were going to Florida to avoid child support. Said Florida has law that child support cannot be garnished from wages for out of state kid.
Everything you say is perfectly valid. But I have a very hard time imagining any scenario in which you could justify shifting the harm from the parent onto the child.
>I think the blame for such accidents falls upon all of us
So what then, we fund child support through tax dollars?
28 years old? Grow the fuck up and be a man, pussy. You put your dick in her and now you want her to go through an abortion. You aren't a man. You are a fucking little boy. Put your big boy pants on and man the fuck up.
OP being a father is one the greatest joys life can offer. Too bad you are a goddamn fuckup with no balls. I hope you die before your kid grows up to find out his/her father is a fucking brony neckbeard.
>being this mad because you can't get pussy
haha holy shit all of you retards getting jelly because OP managed to get sexual pleasure from a girl and you didn't are so fucking transparent LEL. pls go back to /r9k/ :')
and you're clearly a very empathetic and understanding person, and totally not a frustrated nerd blowing steam on the guy who actually manages to get laid, oh no someone give this guy an award :DDDD
Unlike OP, I practice safe sex so I don't have to deal with OP's dilemma and that's if I even feel like putting in work to get some, which isn't very often. I've nothing to prove to you, Anon and you know what they say about assuming.
I knocked a girl up. Thought about running from the problem at first,but I'm glad that I didn't. I actually have grown to like being a father.The birth of my son made me grow as a person and gave me a sense of responsibility I never had before. You need to be in that child's life OP or you'll regret it later in life, despite what you tell yourself and the justifications you use to convince yourself otherwise. Be there for that fucking kid.
Really, I'd rather just fund more effective and foolproof methods of birth control through our tax dollars so that problems like this would go away. I'd even support completely covering the costs of the actual procedures (like I said, Vasalgel/RISUG is a one-time procedure that doesn't require surgery or anesthetic) through our tax dollars, not just for the sakes of the hypothetical fathers, but so that no children have to be born to parents who didn't want them and are unprepared to care for them. I think it's worth the cost, not just morally but probably even financially, since even with child support laws, single parents so often end up receiving gov't assistance.
But I'd also just like to live in a society where reproductive security -- the assurance that one wouldn't ever be roped into having a unwanted child -- was seen as a universal right. I think it's a hell of a lot more worthwhile than some of the other stupid shit we spend our money on.
I have to be honest. I can't tell if this is meant to be a compliment or insult.
That bullshit doesn't work I told my fling i never wanted children and the stupid bitch still got pregnant and went back on her word about aborting it. You can't trust people at all.
Yes, she can still get you.
Any time you have vaginal sex, you take a risk. You, knowing those risks, still decided to have sex.
Now you must face the consequences. If you are not ready to be a father, the least you can do is help out financially.
She's not "forcing" anything.
Do you know why sex exists? TO CREATE CHILDREN. Even WITH the pill there was a chance this would happen. You made this decision knowing this was a potential outcome.
Atleast own your mistake, dude. Trying to make it seem like "she tricked you" just makes you look like a scumbag and a dumbass
Yes, yes you are. You are absolutely on the nose for the man's past extraneous expenses and loss of income as a result of the accident, as well as future projected loss of income and medical and hired help etc.
Just as if the surgery that could cure the paralysis backfires and makes things worse by say, causing a stroke.
Well "bro" you should have been paying attention in school. The only way to be 100% sure no kids are coming is to not have sex in the first place.
I feel bad your kid has to have such trailer trash for a dad. Fuck off or act like a fucking adult for a change.
>By having sex with someone, knowing that a child is a possibilty
That must be one lf the shittiest arguments I've ever seen on this boars. It equals to saying:
>By going out at night being a woman, you should know that being raped is a possibility, so, even if you didn't want to be raped, it's your responsability for going out.
It IS your responsibility to care for your own safety when going out. However, when a woman goes out, she is NOT risking harm to anybody else. If she is raped, then the harm falls squarely on her. If another should specifically inflict harm upon them (rape, mugging, murder etc.) then that person should be responsible for the consequences.
When a person has unprotected sex, they are risking harm on others (specifically the financial and labor burden that comes with raising a child). Since they took a risk at the expense of others, they have a responsibility to deal with the consequences, should a child be born.
Its the basic concept of moral responsibility.
>You are doing bad shit right now by not giving everything you own and sending it to africa
Except I didn't make all those people in Africa starve. If I did cause it, I'd be a shit person (like OP) to not actively try to fix it. He's even admitted he doesn't care about anyone but himself, so I don't understand why you're still trying to pretend what he's doing isn't morally bankrupt.
>The difference between your starwman and my post is that murder is actively making someone else be worse of while what OP is doing is just ignoring the situation the same way you ignore all other suffering all the time.
Not only did OP cause that child to be born, he is actively making the situation worse off by not supporting the kid he made when he was busy being an irresponsible nigger.
>He couldn't reasonably expect that
Babies are made when you have sex. Did you and OP not learn that at some point in life?
>and there was intentional deceiving involved too.
Even if she hadn't intended to deceive him, pregnancy would still have been a real risk.
>With anything else besides a kid this would automatically be under fraud and OP would win.
In this case, it is a kid. It's a human life, not money or a property.
>And you are just selfish for not selling everything and helping the poor and the orphans.
See the top of my post.
>You could pay for it instead if you care so much.
I'm not the one who's retarded enough to have unprotected sex.
OP here. Just read all of the hate, and wow...boggles my mind the lack of sympathy for a douchebag like me. I suppose I deserve it though. I was drunk last night and said some regrettable things because Im scared. I know its mostly my fault because she's younger than me. I just think she's too young for this and myself - too immature.
I think its relevant to suggest that an abortion would be the best thing for both of us. But in the end, its her decision and I have to deal with it. I haven't talked to her since she told me she was keeping...however, I'm considering calling her up tonight and talking to her about it.
I just don't know if I can do this...
If you're honestly worried about her, then take this to her parents. Try and stage an intervention, and set out in rational terms why it would be a terrible idea to have this child.
Of course. That was the second thing I brought up. She told me that if we break up, she's going to do it alone but will need all the support she can get...including child support.
I would get used to having $200 dollars less at the end of every month.
Try to look on the bright side. You're basically paying for a babysitter who works 24/7 and charges ~30 cents an hour.
We're both too scared to do it, that's why I just thought about running. I may be a coward, but I'm not utterly heartless. I feel for both the baby and my gf. I want her to have an abortion, but I don't have the right to force this on her, just as she doesn't have the right to force it on me. I just don't know what to do. Running seems like the easy way out...but staying would wreak the least amount of havoc on my conscience.
Am I just cowardly scum if I bolt? Do I become a man if I take responsibility for my actions?
Hi OP, I'm >>16644437 .
I'm immensely relived to see that you were just drunk last night and not as stupid as I thought. I take back what I said about you being an idiot and a coward. You're just scared and feeling the same way that many young men would feel in your situation.
I hope that now that you're sober, you realize that running away and leaving the country would be a terrible (and unrealistic) decision. I'm glad you're going to talk about this with her again, and I agree that you should get her parents involved. She needs to understand just how much having a baby at he age will fuck her life up. It is still ultimately her decision in the end, and if she still decides to have the baby, you need to do the right thing and pay child support. They can't take so much that you're left with an unlivable income, so no, your life is not over.
Why the fuck are you scared to talk to her parents? Get them on your side and try to play up how harmful it will be for her and for the kid.
>I don't have the right to force this on her, just as she doesn't have the right to force it on me.
Try not to say dumb shit like this though. You're going to pay, regardless of how you fee, so convince them that it's about her.
But I don't think I would make a good father. I'm basically just a 30 year old boy. All I do is smoke kusher, drink liquor and work part time. I'm used to going out to clubs...now I have to be a fulltime dad? Fucking reality shock.
>Am I just cowardly scum if I bolt?
Yes. If you don't want to be in the child's life in any way, fine, make that very clear to the mother. But it's still partly your responsibility to make sure your innocent child has food to eat.
I agree with you, OP. There simply is no argument in this thread that justifies god damn child support. That bitch will make you life a living hell. She will drain you from your money and you will never see that child because she doesn't want to. She will extort you endlessly even after getting a bitch ass new boyfriend.
She has options other than abortion. Adoption is one of the best. She's not looking for alternatives and wants to keep the child without consent? That's her decision and you respect it, but it is not yours and you shouldn't be forced to comply.
Thanks, and no hard feelings. I proly deserved it. I just know that if I leave her, my conscience is never going to give me peace.
>>16646788 Because her brother and her dad are going to kill me.
take stock of your options then:
>a) raise the kid
Probably the worst. You'll be giving up your money AND your lifestyle
>b) pay child support
Middle ground. You get to avoid most negative consequences for yourself. Your lifestyle may take a hit, but you can learn to budget.
On the downside, you're bringing another sad bastard into this world to have a terrible life with no father and an unfit mother
>c) do all you can to convince her to terminate
You might have to confront her family and take a beating, but this has the potential to end all your problems in the bud.
File a petition to terminate support, OP.
Sometimes the court will terminate a parent’s support obligations in some situations:
1. You have no income. Most states will grant a non-custodial parent’s petition to temporarily suspend child support if the parent has lost his or her job or has become disabled and is in the process of applying for disability benefits.
2. You are being incarcerated. Some states will allow temporary suspension for incarceration; however, other states will not.
Also, in some states, willful abandonment of a child for a period of six months to one year is grounds for termination of parental rights. Check your state’s statues to determine if it allows for termination of parental rights, AND if child support obligations are also terminated along with it.
a) Why does the right thing feel so wrong?
b) I'd become a financial slave and hated forever by everyone in her family...but some freedom to still live whats left of my youth.
c) My best friend did this when he impregnated my sister. He bawled like a baby in front of her and my parents until they reluctantly conceded. They were both 18 and he wasn't ready but admitted that was the most embarrassing moment of his life. I never told my sister, or my parents, that I helped talk him into aborting her child. I was selfish and didn't want to loose him as a friend. I never forgave myself and neither did my sister. She knew that I had something to do with it and now I'm dead to her. But we both knew that if she kept the kid, they would end up a broken family because he just wasn't ready, as I'm not. But then again, I'm a grown man...he wasn't.
We men are but wretched, things.
Grow up and raise your kid. Talk to an attorney about suing your 18 year old childbride for custody and get her hobbled with child support payments.
States tend to favor a mother, but an argument can be made that you're the more established, capable and responsible based on age and income. It can be our little secret that that's bullshit.
That said, you could always sack up and do what your grand daddy would have done. Marry the bitch, cheat flagrantly and raise your kids.
Yes states have agreements with each other to get people to pay who tried to skip out on paying child support.
Now on to other business. It costs around $1million on average to raise a child from conception to age 18 and unfortunately for the rest of up the government will most likely be the one to pick up the majority of the tab. So on behalf of all the taxpayers who now have to pay for your poor life decisions, we have no qualms in forcing you to pay around $30-40k to help subside this hellspawn you helped create.
She said she was 18 when I first met her, then she told me she only had a few weeks before her b-day. If 17 wasn't legal, I would have waited. Already met her parents, so their cool with it. Her mom knows im 28 but her dad still thinks im 25.
>calling your fucking girlfriend who is 18, ten years younger than you, and pregnant, a bitch
I wish for everything bad to happen to you except for dying or becoming so poor that you won't be able to pay the child support.
I hope you become just impoverished enough to still be able to pay the child support but otherwise have absolutely no money left to spend for yourself.
I hope she never gets nearer to you than one kilometer, only the police, to get the money from you.