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Has there ever been a shounen that didn't...
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Has there ever been a shounen that didn't ultimately rely on using some sort of spirit energy or whatever to arbitrarily power level their characters?

One Piece was looking pretty good for a while, but then they invented Haki.

Here's a list of all the ones I could think of which do this.
>Yu Yu Hakusho - Spirit energy
>DBZ - Ki
>HxH - Nen
>Bleach - Reiatsu
>Naruto - Chakra
>One Piece - Haki
>Fairy Tail - Magic
>>
>>137920947
Yotsuba.
>>
>>137920947
Plenty.

Why do you always watch/read semi-fantasy to full blown fantasy if you don't like the sort of thing?
>>
>hajime no ippo - japanese spirit
>>
FMA
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>>137920947
Aria
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>>137921009
>Why do you always watch/read semi-fantasy to full blown fantasy if you don't like the sort of thing?
I'm pretty sure he's talking about fantasy battle shounen that doesn't rely on it.

>People who think they're clever answering with romcoms or sports in this thread.
>>
>>137921061
>power of smiles
>power of sulk
>power of song

>power of ahee
>power of kinshi
>power of ufufufu

They got more powers than Kurosaki Ichigo.
>>
>>137921106
>fantasy battle shounen
>without some sort of spirit energy or whatever
Are you fucking retarded?
>>
>>137921123
Without some sort of spirit energy or whatever to arbitrarily add some sort of power level to their characters is what he asked. You can make a fantasy setting without inflating characters with numbers or "SUGOI, THAT GUY HAS INCREDIBLE AURA".
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>>137920947
haki was destroyed in the anime
oda never drew energies like that
>>
>>137921160
aura is a japanese culture belief
you are a murican so thats why you think its stupid
it is stupid though
>>
>>137921160
>"SUGOI, THAT GUY HAS INCREDIBLE AURA".
That sort of statement is made even without supernatural abilities. It basically translates to: "That guy is a legitimate threat".
If you don't have that sort of thing in a fantasy battle shonen you have no tension at all.
>>
>>137920947

>Fairy Tail - Magic
>Magic
That's a weird way to spell friendship anon
>>
>>137921279
He's probably from /mlp/.
>>
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>>137921285
>>
Yozakura quartet.
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>>137921320
Don't use emoticons on /a/.
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>>137921320
one punch man has tons of characters that throw energy beams
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>>137921346
Ok? That's not what OP asked.
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>>137921285
Tsukkomi gokurou!
>>
>>137921362
It's not meant to be taken seriously anyway.
>>
>>137920947
Haki was awful writing to be honest, Oda created it to make fights easier to write. A uses an attack on B, and Oda can arbitrarly make the attack work or not work just by saying one has a better haki than the other (easy since he will never properly quantify it). Through Haki Oda can believably make Luffy the most OP character with no weaknesses, sword slash ? nope haki armor, Logia user ? nope haki punch, sneak attack ? nope haki precognition. This just sucks.
>>
Jojo? It started with Hamon but that was quickly dropped in favor of Stands.
>>
>>137920947
Gintama
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>>137920947
its because it all coincides with willpower. something that really does exist.
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>>137921861
>Oda created it to make fights easier to write
fights are no plot so you can't right a fight kid
Finish school and try posting again some years later
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>>137921861
>Through Haki Oda can believably make Luffy the most OP character with no weaknesses, sword slash ? nope haki armor, Logia user ? nope haki punch, sneak attack ? nope haki precognition. This just sucks.
Are you having a stroke?
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>>137921953
Jojo became a seinen when hanon was dropped, so no
>>
>>137922648
Not even close, Jojo became a seinen during Part 7
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>>137920947
Rave Master. There's spellcasting and stuff but most of the main characters don't use it. Instead they use specific magic powers, which usually aren't the "aura ki attack" type of thing that you're talking about.

Also Fullmetal Alchemist. It has none of that.
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>>137920947
>Chakra
Wasn't that basically mana tho?
So you telling me to find a shounen with skill/magic based withough mana. Isn't it a little OP?
>>
I thought everyone can at least learn CoA Haki,so it's not really some kind of spirit energy but more of a technique.
>>
The CoA thing is something anybody can learn so One Piece isn't at that level where they're shooting beams out their hands yet
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>>137921171
Honestly you have a point but does it matter? Zoro fighting against that giant guy
>You can't cut me! My Haki is stronger than yours
>Nothin personnel kid.

it's something pretty linear which is boring. And coincidentally it fits perfectly when One Piece went to shit(2011 onwards), though Haki is not only to blame but the fact that Oda became a shit writer.

>>137922532
>>137922570
>You can't write a fight
>Changing goalposts

Well it's pretty easy to see, wan piss defense force is here.
>>
>>137922973
No its no. You have never played game with magic but without mana?
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>>137923271
They literally say that the characters have depleted their chakra and can't cast any more spells.
What makes it different from mana to you?
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>>137923153
Man everybody is always on about that MY HAKI IS STRONGER THAN YOURS scene and think it's every Haki fight completely missing the double-meaning of how Haki means will so Zoro's saying "only if you have a stronger will than me"

And putting that aside, that's like the only situation something like that ever happened
>>
>>137923341
Its the same. What im trying to say is that you can have show with magic thats limited in some other way than mana or chakra or whatever
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>>137923058
>>137923134
Samefag, OP is not talking about shooting beams.

He's talking about Muh haki>>your haki
Can't surpass my armor Haki? Get fucked
Can't sneak behind my precog Haki? Get fucked
The other only works for taking care of fodder but it's pretty much that one
>What an amazing pressure

He's talking about a manga where the characters don't power up by using Ki or Chakra. Haki, Reiatsu and all that is pretty much Ki with a different name, precog, durability, strenght, putting the fear of god into the enemy is all ki. It's overall a more barebones energy.
>Can get more durable= Ki
>Can run faster=Ki
The only explanation is Ki.

Nen and other energies that use those elaborate charts to do different things are pretty much Chakra with a different name.
>Can punch harder= bla bla type 1 Chakra
>Can run faster= bla bla type 3+ bla bla golden Chakra


>>137923341
Chakra is not the same as Mana. Getting tired doesn't mean it's the same.
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>>137921861
>Oda can arbitrarly make the attack work or not work just by saying one has a better haki than the other
Nigger what?
> sword slash ? nope haki armor
Luffy still gets hurt by swords though.
Without haki, logia users would be OP.
>>
>>137921123
That's the entire point of this thread. Generic "spirit power" is in absolutely anything with even the slightest fantasy elements.
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>>137920947
So you're looking for a fighting manga without energies? Pretty much every manga without fantasy stuff.

Pic related is not shonen but I get the feeling you're one of those that think shonen means fighting manga.
>>
>>137920947
Gintama.
Maybe Index?
>>
>>137923481
>Luffy still gets hurt by swords though.
That's only because Luffy's Haki is not that strong so it only prevents him from getting more damage.

>Without haki, logia users would be OP.
Better than being a joke like Smoker.
>>
>>137921953
Stands are literally spiritual energy
>>
>>137923461
What you describe doesn't different from mana. For example, in The Gamer, you basically buff your self with mana so you are more durable and faster, and getting tired when you out of mana too. Basically, in shounen manga, they combine mana and stamina together so you think it diffenrent but it not
>>
Gintama
>>
>>137923481
If they had limited haki to just being a weird technique to punch logias I wouldn't mind it so much.
>>
>>137923271
but in those game, there are other gimick that act almost the same as mana, like Tales of Destiny where you have C.C
>>
>>137923798
It's just rationalization of willpower--> power.
It allows "normals" a way to be able to match up to devil fruit users in a way that makes sense. And it makes user fights have a little more variety on top of the basic powers.
>>
>>137923153
>You can't cut me! My Haki is stronger than yours
That was nothing more than a shit translation. OP translators always do stuff like that. Before leaving nakama untranslated was prevalent; now it's the word haki. That line is closer to something like >>137923392
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>>137921861
And they way people overpowered each other before was raw physical power/generally. Or maybe raw power and some technique.

Probably Fist of the North Star?

There are characters that are clearly total bitches, the number of people that aren't at least kind of a bitch compared to Ken can be counted on one hand, and then like, everyone else, who is meaningless in a fight between martial artists.

It's not even necessarily a question of power, because Toki isn't necessarily powerful, but he has a lot of technique.

Also, while Ken can make himself very powerful and is physically powerful by most standards, it's a question of technique and mindset more than anything.


The fact that he couldn't beat Shin at one point, and then beat him like a rented mule the next is also a mindset thing. He had all the makings, he just lacked the mental and spiritual leavening/desire.
>>
>>137922075
>>137923584
>>137923759
Gintama has the Altana thing which is used by Utusro and Oboro to do those mini-rasengans
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>>137924399
But it doesn't do the
>shounen that didn't ultimately rely on using some sort of spirit energy or whatever to arbitrarily power level their characters
>>
Nobody?
>>
>>137924454
>yet
>>
>>137923536
>Generic "spirit power" is in absolutely anything with even the slightest fantasy elements.
Because 1) that's how their fantasy works and 2) it's a necessity.
When you have characters that can blast mountains to dust with the flip of a finger, then you need to power up your melee fighters to be able to match that.
The only alternative is to remove any and all physical combat, and that is not a popular choice.

You know how DnD just arbitrarily raises HP? That doesn't make a lick of sense. If my level 40 fighter (without any armor) gets caught in a Time Stop and the enemy mage (out of spells) just stabs away at him for the entire duration of the Time Stop, my fighter may lose some 5-10% of his HP, when realistically he should be dead.

Complaining about raised stats in a fantasy setting is dumb and you should be ashamed of doing it. If you want realistic fighters, you either pick a realistic setting, or you pick a low-magic setting like LotR. Otherwise you are literally complaining that you are reading/watching a fantasy story.
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>>137924564
Well, there we go. Fantasy techniques battle manga and still no energy of any sort.
>>
Strongest Disciple Kenichi (though there might be some Chi users, though expected from martial arts manga).

Ranma, some attacks are retarded - but in like with Wuxia tropes.
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>>137924841
Kenshin techniques use Chi
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>>137924923
Ranma can summon tornadoes, turn himself invisible and knows how to turn frustration into explosions. (although he only uses the first one of these skills any more) The movies also had him use an actual energy attack.
>>
>>137924944
Sensing Ki as in feelings or emotions. Nothing spiritual often.
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>>137924996
Ranma`s techniques are always explained in universe -i.e. tornado technique is just circling around enemy very fast blocking attacks.

Rjoga "explosions" is merely finding a weak point in structures applying impact to destroy it.

etc.

Exception being stuff like Rjoga`s explosion powered by his masochistic emotion.
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>>137925035
Rairyūsen (雷龍閃, Thunder Dragon Flash) - A technique invented by Amakusa Shōgo. The technique involves using one's chi and swordsman's spirit, forming a light from the sword in a style of a violent thunderstorm, attacking opponents by overwhelmingly striking their sight with such sensory overload to the point that it knocks them out. Should it be used to its full intensity, the Rairyūsen rids them of their eyesight forever leaving them with gray-empty eyes; unless the one blinded can overcome the Rairyūsen's user in a Amakakeru Ryū No Hirameki clash in a test of true spirit, it is only then their eyesight will return. Kenshin was first hit by this, but quickly adjusted to being blind, and eventually overcame Shōgo in their eventual clash.
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>>137922570
You're the one having a stroke if you couldn't understand him
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>>137925076
>Rjoga "explosions" is merely finding a weak point in structures applying impact to destroy it.
No, it isn't.
>Exception being stuff like Rjoga`s explosion powered by his masochistic emotion.
Exactly.
And making yourself invisible was literally about aura. There was an image about him turning ghostlike in front of Akane.
>>
>>137925076
Hiryu Shoten Ha has an explanation behind it, sure. But it still relies on "battle aura" to work, saying that powerful people give off tons of heat while Ranma keeps his cool even while dodging around.
>>
>>137925101
>anon doesn't know what Ki is to Japanese
>anon doesn't know the 3 Kis
>>
For those who do not seem to understand OP, he means a power level system that determines how strong a character is, rather than showing how strong the character is through their technique or cleverness. Like a number, or just "his X is huge, he's so strong." It's not just "there are energy attacks," energy attacks are fine, a level of energy that determines whether one person is effective against another is not.
>>
>>137925101
>>137924996
You don't understand OP just doesn't want powerlevels?

It doesn't matter if they use Ki or Chi as long as it doesn't go with my power is stronger than yours so I win.
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>>137920947
The energy thing that most shounens use aren't necessarily bad but if they don't have defined rules, they'll hit a certain cap where in which you get the:
>my X powerlevel is stronger than yours!

An example of really bad power level/energy systems are ki, reiatsu and recently haki
They're not creative in the slightest and are painfully similar but what's annoying is that there are some interesting aspects in each of them but they are often overlooked because there are not enough relevant characters that use these unique techniques. So they quickly devolve into the above mentioned green text types of battles.

What is a good power level/energy system is Nen because the rules are clearly defined and the more creative the nen power, the more difficult to beat the character is. That doesn't mean that there aren't any instances where some characters just have more nen than others, it's just that even if they have more nen that doesn't mean they'll win against a character with less nen because they might be superior ability-wise. Nen battles are puzzles as in characters have to find out the other characters ability instead of using raw power. That's why each nen battle in HxH is completely distinct from each other.

t. HxH dickrider
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>>137925101
Anon you should know better than to refer to the original anime. It had the absolute worst in filler arcs.
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>>137925186
>>137925187
Then why did he list HxH?
That was a manga where no battle was predetermined by the fighters' nen (with the exception of the king, and even he felt his opponent's attacks).
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>>137925144
>No, it isn't.
It is? Its aquired technique he spent long time trying to learn. Same as Ranma getting stones from fire for superfast attacks.

In universe make sense and not really spectacular, especially if take just as exageration of martial arts concepts. Which it is - basic Qigong.

Much of "fantasy" martial arts techniques in anime take root in real ones, in asian martial arts its unseparatable. Qigong, Dim Mak, general chi use, styles like Ba Gua or Tai Chi. Japanese are not exception - both Kendo and Judo/Aikodo/Karate working with "Ki"
>>
>>137925186
>implying my Ki is greater than yours doesn't pressure the other guy to strategize
>implying "my power is to be invulnerable/invisible/reality bending/etc" isn't worse
>>
>>137925256
>It is?
I was talking about the other one. Which would be obvious to you if you thought for even a second.
Why would I even mention frustration otherwise?
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>>137925188
>reiatsu
Not really a problem for a very long time. It was only used in early Bleach and SS, and part of the Arrancar arc, when the main party were scrubs. Since then, most characters other than the big guys (Aizen, Ichigo, Yhwach) do not hold a significant reiatsu advantage over their opponents since they're usually fighting guys on the same level. The real problem with Bleach fights is that they all have the same pattern of I beat you/no I beat you here's my new power/no I beat you here's my new power that counteracts yours/etc. until someone wins.
>>
>>137925380
>no I beat you
>no I counter that
That's Bleach alright. Wankers seem to have a trap card for everything.
>>
>>137925188
>What is a good power level/energy system is Nen because the rules are clearly defined
>one dude has portals
>he never uses it to decapitate people
>needs to be written out of the story so he won't get around to it

>one kid fulfills wishes/orders
>needs to be written out of the story so that this ability won't break literally everything

That's not a good system.
>>
Are you complaining about their main source of power, or with just how they level up?
>>
>>137924634
>there will be time when Gintoki can use kamehameha in serious situation,
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>>137925739
Will he shoot it from his crotch?
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>>137920947
HSDK didn't rely on any kind of spirit energy iirc
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>>137925779
Of course.
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>>137922648
Nigger what?

It didn't become Seinen until a fee chapters into SBR
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