>Zeon >good guys >Gas an entire colony and dropping it on Earth
But in this show's case: >Create machines that are literal war demons, piloted by amputees >Chop off a guy's only remaining limb just to complete the synchronization, even if it means the guy has no future but war left >Killing children without remorse >Extremely misogynistic towards their own female officers and scientists
>>137497544 0079 had terrible shitty animation and bad fights. Zeta has awful Tomino dialogue and characters doing stupid things everywhere. Zeta ANT same thing there except we now got new animated scenes tucked next to old ones ZZ is pants on head retarded, also not canon. CCA has Quess being an irritating cunt and a bullshit ending. 0080 is muh hijacking operation mecha shit #9999999 0083 has Nina being a backstabbing cunt and is shit outside of the animation. 08th MS Team has muh Romeo and Juliet and a Ball being invincible for no reason. Fucking plot armor. Unicorn is Zeon apologism everywhere and stupid Newtype bullshit also muh box. F91 is just 0079 rehashed. Victory is muh dead wimmenz. G is awful super robot bullshit. Wing is shitty teenage garbage. X is muh Oldtype wank and shitty rehashed Wing reject designs. Turn-A is boring as fuck and Loran being the first useless pacifist cuntbag. Turn-A Movies managed to make it even more boring SEED is teenage drama fujoshit. SEED HD Remaster choir boy manages to run into a sword Destiny is teenage-ier, drama-ier fujoshit. 00 is autistic lead pilots and the worst second season of anything ever. AGE is everything wrong with all of the above and more besides. G-Reco? More like "gee, I wish I'd watched anything other than this".
I'm not even mad about all those opinions you posted except
>IBO is even more shit
IBO is one of the best series in the franchise. The fact that its getting an S2 automatically places it in top 10, above G-reco. The fact that its better than any series that ran on Toonami places it in top 5. The fact that its written mainly by an actual talented female writer and not Tomino places it in top 3 contention, alongside 00 Gundam and Unicorn.
>>137497491 >Gas an entire colony and dropping it on Earth Why is this such a big deal, anyways? Just because Zeon are spacenoids fighting for the freedom of spacenoids doesn't mean they can't fight against spacenoids that serve their own oppressors. That's how it always worked in the real life as well.
When the Americans fought for their freedom and independence from the British oppression, they didn't just fight the soldiers from Britain. They also fought against the locals who stayed loyal to their oppressors, the proto-Canadian "Loyalists". When the French Resistance fought against Nazis occupying their country, they didn't just fight against the Germans, they also fought against Vichy France and local quislings, Frenchmen serving the Germans. Right now Daesh is fighting a noble war to protect Islam from Western and Russian imperialists, but at the same time they're fighting other "muslims", since those "muslims" would rather serve infidels like Assad than follow the teachings of their religion.
Local traitors and collaborators have always existed and they will always exist. No one likes fighting against their fellow compatriots, but what else can you do? You can't just leave them be.
>>137500254 All of that is true, but there were slum colonies like Shangri-La and most of the colony settlers were there for economic reasons. No frontiersmen had options back home. You leave everything you know and love for the unknown because you need money.
By the time of the OYW though, the new frontier was settled. Earth was dependent on the colonies economically. Spacenoid independence was not unlike the US colonies rebelling against the British. There was really nothing gained from being part of the empire, only losses due to taxes and resources being sent across the ocean. Dougram conveyed this much better.
>>137500675 G-Reco was for adults, hence the late night slot. Seed, Destiny, and 00 have the same demographic to this day as adult Wing fans: teenagers and young adults. AGE was the kickstart back into trying to get the post-toddler to middle school aged kids interested in the franchise again.
>>137500761 >what's wrong with killing civilians and then dropping their home on other civilians and destroying huge areas of land >despite also proclaiming that the earth must be preserved Fucking tripfags.
>>137500254 Clearly zeon was forced to kill sides 1-3 due to not being able to feed them. The feds bombed their supply lines, with barely enough food to feed their troops a quick death via nerve gas was the more humane option. Degwin did nothing wrong, space-racewar now.
>>137500978 Zeon was Imperial Japan. Same rhetoric about "a free Asia" from western influence, playing off of a "Pan-Asian" identity and superiority, but all they cared about was an Asia under Japanese influence. They declare they're going to free Asia, but the first thing they do is go marching into other Asian countries to rule them themselves. They barge into a country, take it over, and begin instigating laws to make the other Asian people's second class citizens in their own damn countries.
http://gundam.aeug.org/archives/1999/01/1156.html While it's of course not canon, read what the original plans for Gundam were. Even with what's left in the show, it's clear what Zeon and its war mongering was meant to be.
>>137500254 >>137501660 No matter how many times you post that screencap it's not going to magically become true. Colonies were literally oppressed. They literally had no representation in the Federation government. They were literally forced to leave Earth and settle in space. This was all clearly established in the anime and is not up to discussion. You can't handwave these arguments away by saying "Oh, it's just old people being nostalgic about their youth on Earth, you can't trust what they say." or "Oh, Earthnoids weren't actually superior, everyone just thought they were." when you can't really provide any actual proof for these statements. Sure, the methods Zeon used were questionable at times, but you have to remember that they were fighting against an enemy that was industrially, economically, militarily, and population-wise more than ten times stronger. If they fought "fairly", it wouldn't have been a One Year War, it would have been a One Week War.
>>137501924 >Zeon was Imperial Japan. Incorrect; Zeon is an amalgamation by Tomino of the Axis powers which means not just the Empire of Japan but also Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. Which is really obvious given how the Zabi family was written too.
>>137502148 Side 3 was already fully independent of Earth a full decade before the OYW.
>>137502327 Side 3 was recognized as politically independent so that the Federation could impose a trade embargo on a "hostile foreign power" instead of on its "own people". It was never economically independent as the Federation's entire strategy was to starve it into submission and force them to surrender their independence without a shooting war.
>>137502377 Most Zeon apologists are the same kind of people that believe the US was being horribly oppressed by Britain back in the day. People who buy into propaganda without so much as a critical thought applied to the how or why.
>>137502455 Side 3 was recognized as independent as soon as they held a public referendums and sent them to the EF. The embargoes only happened AFTER Side 3 became both independent and started stirring up anti Earthnoid sentiments and sponsoring terrorist actives on Side1 and Side 4.
>>137502148 Yes and they were perfectly fine going independent. The problem is when they started shitting themselves because earth stopped sending support when they weren't part of the federation anymore, so they started dropping colonies on earth and committing genocide.
>>137502549 Literally none of the lore suggests that the Federation ever intended to treat Side 3 as a long-term rival. Zeon Daikun's populist movement threatened Federation interests throughout the Sphere, and more Sides joining Zeon and gaining true independence would cut off the Federation's means of dumping excess population into space and off Earth. That simply couldn't be allowed to happen. It was a matter of mere weeks between the Federation "recognizing" Side 3 and the beginning of the economic sanctions.
>>137502986 >murder innocent fellow spacenoids and neutral civilians to stir up anti-Earthnoid rhetoric >"It's not terrorism" Yeah sure thing dude.
>>137503068 None of the lore suggests in the main canon (anime TV series, movies, and sequel side stories) that the Earth Federation is some cartoonishly evil mustache twirling anti-Spacenoid organization. Funnily enough though the Tomino's MSG novels and both the Original manga and anime OVA (both which are adaptions of his story made to fit better with the actual anime continuity) portray Zeon as always being crazy and even Char's dad as being a lunatic.
And no, once again embargo only started once Side 3 started more or less sponsoring anti-Earth antics and terrorists which is then when the Federations gets heavy handed in response.
>>137503211 >None of the main canon suggests the Earth federation is cartoonishly evil Zeta, ZZ, 8th MS team >Char's dad is a lunatic That's up to interpretation, he certainly seemed crazy but it's acknowledged by the wife that he wasn't always crazy, my interpretation is that he is heavily stressed by the political circumstances of the Origin period
>>137503211 >murder innocent fellow spacenoids To bring this back around to the anime at hand, the federation soldiers in Thunderbolt are all Spacenoids themselves. They're the survivors of Zeon's attack on their Side. Even when some grouse about the nobility of their Side, not a single one has any thoughts about what role Earth and the Federation may have played in their Side's misfortune. All their thoughts and hate are directed upon Zeon for destroying their colony and on the higher ups of their colony who let it happen.
Even if Zeon's civilian targeted war crimes were in any way justifiable, and they're not which is why the serious supporters in this thread dance around it and try to talk about how bad the Federation was, all their actions did was drive their "fellow" Spacenoids to ally with the Federation for survival and revenge. Worse than evil, Zeon was incompetent in their political goals. If those ever really were their goals in the first place, considering all their actions seem more in line with ruling everything and killing everyone when it's the least bit convenient in the short term.
>Tomino makes Zeon unequivocal bad guys >The point is to show both sides of a war but also that there were people in charge of Zeon that approved terrible things >This gets warped years later by multiple spinoffs and general toy popularity into ZEON DID NOTHING WRONG
I think this needs to be said, the pro-zeon side of this thread is focusing on the people of zeon and their urge for freedom, while the anti-zeon side is focusing on the leadership of zeon and their urge for power. Both sides just say "Zeon" though.
>>137503791 >Main canon (anime TV series, movies, and sequel side stories) >8th MS Team is a side story that takes place in the one year war You know, the main canon has been expanded. You can't just say "ignore this because it doesn't fit my argument", you're fucking see-through.
>>137503490 I meant that in the original Gundam (0079)'s both TV series and animated film compilations, nothing suggested or is shown the Federation is oppressing colonists. All other original side material before Origins and later retcons presented in omnscient narratives from guide books and databooks state tensions only got raised because Side 3 colonies under the Zabis and even before them under Char's dad were causing issues on Earth itself as well as more loyal colonies.
>>137504131 Only "true" canon is animated material according to Sunrise. That said, re-read my post.
>>137504208 If someone's take away from 08th MS Team is that the Federation was cartoonishly evil, then they're a moron.
The Federation brass is portrayed as not so squeaky clean, but Zeon doesn't come out any better either. Both sides are shown to attack medical carriers, civilians, and their own allies, either in their own war mongering, the fog of war, or because they've taken the one way train to crazy town (which really tells you all you need to know about how good Zeon is at vetting it's important leaders). Shirou is the only one who gives conscious thought to how the enemy should be treated, even if, as he states himself, they must be defeated militarily. And this is after he had a front row seat to Zeon gassing civilians.
The underlying theme of 08th is that war and conflict is sometimes unavoidable, but there's never a justification for the shitty treatment of the people involved. The Federation doesn't come off well in 08th, but it's just as much a condemnation of Zeon, if not more so considering Zeon are still the invaders, still the one making super weapons to kill everyone, still gassing people, and there's all of the rest of the UC material to consider. Because no matter what Zeon was fighting for, their actions have no excuse.
>>137504564 >If someones takeaway is federation is evil, they're a moron >Then goes onto to say the federation doesn't come off well
That's what i'm saying, just like Zeon is considered evil for their leadership, the federation in 8th has a similarly rotten leadership. I didn't touch in zeon in 8th because it doesn't matter how they're presented (and yes, zeon in 8th sucks too, i never said otherwise)
>>137504499 Except he's supported by his equals and peers in the Federation military until the end of the story where he gets arrested. Its really the non-Tomino side stories which glorify Zeon and playdown the Federation that the latter gets villanized even during the OYW.
Zeonic loyalists fight a battle of noble ideals, and believe in them so dearly that they would give their very lives. The Feddies are literally throwing away lives to protect dirt that they happen to own. Literal dirt.
>>137503582 Meme roleplaying aside, no one is seriously arguing that Zeon did nothing wrong. But stuff like >>137500254 is ridiculous feddiewanking that makes it look like Federation literally did nothing wrong. Yeah yeah, Zeon wiped out most of humanity, killed civilians, dropped colonies, even the biggest zeekfag admits these things happened, even if he tries to justify it one way or another. But on the other side you have feddiewankers who literally deny that Federation did anything wrong, that Federation forced most of humanity into space, that Federation was dominated by elites, that Federation was corrupt, that in the Federation the relatively few earthnoids had disproportional political power compared to the much more numerous spacenoids, etc. I mean, seriously. "PERCEIVED CULTURAL BELIEF"? Go fuck yourself dude.
>>137504781 >removes "cartoonishly" Come on anon, it's right in the post. The Federation isn't cartoonishly evil, they're morally grey overall with a few individuals, such as that one leader ordering a sniper to fire on evacuating wounded, being pretty immoral. Zeon also escapes cartoonish evil in this story, because there's really only the crazy scientist, who's actually mentally deranged and not just a saturday morning cartoon villain. It has it's own share of immoral actors or people who look the other way when such actions are taken or simply don't care enough to truly look at what's being done by their side.
Again, the take away isn't that somehow this justifies anything Zeon did. On the contrary, it's a condemnation of the thought that "as long as Zeon is 'fighting for freedom,' as long as the Federation itself is bad, everything Zeon does to people is good." It isn't. A war can be fought without gassing civilians or thinking of the enemy as lesser beings deserving of being treated as shit.
>>137503211 >None of the lore suggests in the main canon (anime TV series, movies, and sequel side stories) that the Earth Federation is some cartoonishly evil mustache twirling anti-Spacenoid organization.
0080, 0083, Z, and Unicorn all do. Unicorn is especially damning given that the Federation is so anti-Spacenoid independence that they blew off and retroactively edited their own charter to prevent that from happening for as long as possible, rendering their own existence as a government as de facto illegal. Had Zeon Daikun never been born, it may have perpetuated forever. As things stood, even after the recognition of Side 3 and the later granting recognition of certain other "neutral" Sides, the Federation never treated any of the Sides, neutral or otherwise, as more than vassal states to their own overarching government, and that's in MSG.
There's no painting the Federation in a good light that actual canon doesn't smear by their own actions. Zeon doesn't climb down into that mire until the onset of the OYW, whereas the Federation had been dragging Spacenoids and "undesirables" through shit for decades. No side of the conflict is a paragon of virtue, but presenting the Federation as being anything better than an oppressive Terran Overlord Government is lying to yourself and doesn't stand up to even the most basic scrutiny.
You guys do have to admit the whole Federation are bad guys or "as bad as Zeon was" was mainly put during the OYW era by other writers; primarily authors of LNs, or people who did OVAs like 0080 to Unicorn.
There's a reason why the average Jap identifies more with Zeon then the Federation and why Nips love mono-eyes over visors. Tomino wanted to avoid shit like this. I'm not saying either that the Federation via the Titans didn't do bad shit post-OYW but the majority of shit that makes them out as being equally bad isn't by Tomino's hand.
>>137505956 ZZ (by Tomino) has the Federation not evil, but certainly incompetent and unwilling to help. Victory and CCA has the elite on Earth willing to sell out the lower classes to save their own skins. Remember that the feds represent post-war Japan, which Tomino doesn't seem too pleased with.
But the Titans are outright evil, they also gas colonies. But they are a breakaway of the Federation that the govt carelessly lets grow, then disowns.
If you're talking about the beginning of CCA, they weren't happy. They just didn't care since the Feddie establishment was prepared to accept the loss of Earth and already started transitioning to the space colonies - which is why most Feddie forces were locking down the colonies rather than stopping Axis. By that point in time, the Earth required more imported goods to sustain than all the colonies combined.
>>137506978 >Tomino was too gutless Even for a troll post, this is too much. If there's one thing Tomino is not, it's gutless. Tomino does what Tomino wants, and damn the authorities, the fans, or the guidelines of understandable fiction.
>>137499980 The main reason I've never been able to get into Gundam is how absurd it is for one side to magically create a single model of a weapon that is literally impervious to its contemporaries.
Even the fucking first jet fighter ever employed was occasionally beaten by props that exploited it's disadvantages, but somehow some scientists make a literal super-weapon that auto-wins the entire war while being the equivalent of a single jet logistically.
>>137509106 How are they any better than Zeon? Zeon at least has got spacenoid rights at heart, the Titans commits as many atrocities as the Principality and in fact exacerbate the sentiments of rebellion among the spacenoids. They create conflict where there could have been none
>>137509619 While the Gundams are degrees better than other suits, the trick is they don't give Gundams to chumps. Sure, Amuro at the start is a bit bull, but look at 0080. A test pilot (not an ace) fights a grunt suit while in an upgraded gundam and the outcome is both suits are destroyed.
>>137509619 >The main reason I've never been able to get into Gundam is how absurd it is for one side to magically create a single model of a weapon that is literally impervious to its contemporaries. The later Gundam series do fall into that, but the first series is actually quite the opposite. The Gundam is a superior model, this is true, but it's never untouchable and never assures victory. The pilot also has developing special bullshit psychic powers that tilt the scale more in his favor, and even then he has his shares of failures. Hell, it ultimately didn't even win the war on it's own. The GMs, the full production model built off the Gundam, were what turned the tide in the end and allowed Federation victory, not the Gundam all on its own.
True, the pilot is still an unusually good piloting kid and the Gundam is more effective than one would realistically expect, but in battle and as a factor for overall victory, but the original series made it mark precisely because it often avoided the sort of things it's successors so blindly ended up doing.
I tried getting into Turn A Gundam, but it was pretty fucking uninteresting and slowly paced. Iron Blooded Orphans was a big disappointment too, since the whole premise of a bunch of children taking over a military arm and operating independently somehow managed to be more ridiculous than the concept of those same children piloting mechas in the first place.
OP's picture looks good (very reminiscent of eighties shading and textures) and the synopsis sounds neat, but I've been so burnt by Gundam series that I don't know if it's just hype for it or not. >>137499980 looks fucking baller though.
>>137510342 In 0080 it is revealed that the Zeon accent sounds like an Australian accent. This shows the true curse of the Universal Century. Aussies were shitposting so hard they accidentally started campaigning for Spacenoid independence and started a war.
not that guy, but I'd never watched any of the older gundams while growing up, and happened to catch Turn A when I started getting interested in mecha, and it hooked me so hard I ended up looking for more and watched the rest of the franchise
which was mostly a disappointment
obviously just depends on the individual in question, like most things
>>137510612 A friend recommended I start with that one for whatever reason, which was probably a bad idea because it was shitty. Literally the only good part was the delicious brown, and that was few and far between. Maybe I would have liked it more if I had more experience with Gundam and mecha in general, but as an introductory show it fell flat on its face.
What would you recommend as the show newbs should start with?
>>137511184 You didn't mention the part where the Titans were stopped while attempting to gas colonies several times (apparently they don't share the same sentiment about how terrible it is). And don't forget that these Titans were rousing anti-earth sentiments, creating willing enemies for the next series of wars.
>Zeon=Axis=Neo Zeon nah brah, they are different. Sure the stock is the same, but the leaders are different and are all using that stock to achieve their own ends. The spacenoids are quite tragic, really, but that's neither here nor there
Zeon being shit doesn't make the Feddies good. Trying to turn Gundam into good guys vs. bad guys robs the series of what makes it so interesting.
The Federation is the lesser evil, but it's still an earthnoid oligarchy which gave rise to the Titans. Zeon had legitimate grievances and it's easy to sympathize with someone like Ramba Ral, but their leadership was outright genocidal.
>>137500964 >>what's wrong with dropping colonies on earth? >what's wrong with dropping large numbers of bombs on Tokyo? >what's wrong with dropping nukes on Hiroshima? >what's wrong with dropping nukes on Nagasaki? >what's wrong with dropping a large amount of bombs on Dresden? Not him, but Earth was a very important strategic military target in the same way that the Axis cities which the Allies bombed to smithereens indiscriminately were.
As much as we'd like to think that the Earth Federation were good guys, they had a lot of cocksucking brutal killers and rapists fighting for them that didn't give a fuck about killing Zeon spacenoids, man.
>>137512182 Ehhhhhhhhhh, i suppose you could, I mean I think it's important to understand the context of thunderbolt, to know what the battle of A Baoa Qu is and what it means for Thunderbolt. Basically it references the events of the original (0079) so, while it is important it is unnecessary
>>137512808 I'm not remembering this plot. Do you mean that super early part where the kids join, inspired by amuro, and get destroyed because they're not newtypes? What's so bad about that, the federation knew about amuro and his newtype skills so why wouldn't they try to make more child soldiers? War is war.
>special task force to counter spacenoid threat got so elitist and oppressive against own citizens, they got chased away from the Federation, and had to team up with their arch-nemesis to survive in the first place
>>137512808 Next episode maybe. The manga is pretty good other than that >>137512886 It just seems like an unnecessary addition to hammer home the point that WAR IS HELL. The author has a real murderboner for that kind of thing
>>137512970 Yeah but Amuro was straight up wrecking. Look at it like a super early and basic version of cyber newtypes (which were, funnily enough, and attempt by professional militaries to use children).
>>137509619 >how absurd it is for one side to magically create a single model of a weapon that is literally impervious to its contemporaries.
RX-78-2 is literally the fourth MS in the RX series, they didn't just "magically" create it out of nothing, they had all the data from the guntank, guncannon, and 78-1 to build on and you can even see the iteration and deviation from design to design. It's the same way the iconic Zaku 2 was developed from the Zaku 1.
Amuro's success as a pilot had less to do with the MS itself and more his skill as a newtype, it's the very reason they ended up developing the Alex and the Nu gundam specifically for him.
That statement doesn't apply to many of the other series either though.
The X was mass produced and therefore not a single model weapon. The Freedom gets shit on by the Aegis and the Destiny which are both it's contemporaries. The Strike isn't as effective when used by people not names Kira. Wing is so bad it's forced to self destruct twice. RX-79 was mass produced, also gets shit on, same with Ez-8. The entire GP line ends up getting destroyed and ends up fucking over the people that made it rather than winning any wars. The only series where that statement is somewhat true is 00 which was only until the enemies got fake GN drives, and Turn A where the Turn A is legit fucking magic moon race bullshit that doesn't have to explain itself.
>>137509943 Yet The White devil rekted its way across zeon territory. True it wasn't a super broken Mobile Suit like the Unicorn, but it was a top of the line model that was still great at the end of the war. Even at the battle of A boa Qu Amuro was the first person to break through zeons forces and land. That's pretty good considering he was against an armada. The Gundam along with Amuro was what made it so powerful.
The Titans at its foundation core is a counter-insurgency task force which should operate akin to special forces. But its core problem is it was developed as part of a conspiracy by figures rooted in the military industrial complex to restart hostilities between Earth and space, and was led by aggressive militant commanders who were given blank checks by said figures.
So you have a caricature of a special forces unit which has gone wildly out of control, with no systematic checks in place to deal with it. The underlying theme of Z is a constant need for vigilance in the face of everchanging times - and in Tomino's lore, the Federation adopted this stance going forward for around half a century until the end of the Crossbone Vanguard, when the Federation began its rapid deterioration.
>people think the Titans gave fuck about the Federation
>What is your objective, Lieutenant Scirocco? >I believe my duties are to free people whose souls are being pulled by gravity. >But those are the A. E. U. G.'s objectives. >Not true. >While the A. E. U. G.'s making all this fuss in favor of space... >...they're no different than the people of the Federation. >They're also bound to the Earth Sphere. >You seem to have an objection, Jerid. >Are you implying that you're a Newtype? >I only sense that times will not change unless I do something about it. >Nothing more. >Jamitov converted the Earth Federation Forces to the Titans... >...to eradicate the people pulled by Earth. >What? >By starting a war, he plans to exhaustively force Earth's economy to the brink. >People on Earth will die of hunger and vanish. >On the surface, that sounds no different from the A. E. U. G.'s objectives. >The point is after that. >The Earth Sphere's fate depends on who rules humanity after the war. >Don't you agree there'd be a need for a genius to rule the Earth Sphere?
>>137517903 To make claims about how you're the man fit to rule, and thus save, the Earth Sphere, at the very least you need to be capable of doing one thing, and that's seizing power. Evidently Scirocco was not that man. Also the Earth just kept spinning on, as we've seen from later entries in the UC timeline
>>137497632 Mobile Suit Gundam is still hands-down the most compelling anime of all time. While NGE tries to replicate the complexity of war through the eyes of a child, Gundam embodies it in a remarkable tale for the ages.
Coupled with top-notch animation and a futurisitc yet realistic setting, one could see the parallels and future in our society when compared to theirs.
Characters are not painted as black and white, but as complex unions of character traits. Controversy even arises in calling the Federation the "Heroes" of the story, as moral grey areas arise for both factions.
Truly the most riveting anime, one which cannot be replicated.
>>137524064 Theyre there only to reuse old characters and plots, have existential monologues about muh feelings, and an excuse to have a floating ghost person say their final farewells to every important character when they get killed off.
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