but I would probably have just sided with her. I am a pretty ethical person IRL but apathetic when it comes to being moral. In a horribly corrupt fascist state like in AGK I would definitely side with esdeath. She's so powerful and sexy that I would have no issue being her house-husbando and dicking/cuddling with her after a long day of genocide.
Same goes for Beatrix desu senpai. I would have no problem being either of their manslave.
I get that he was in love with someone else, but if it's between sex, and pissing of somebody who just killed like half a continent, I'd go with the sex. I might not like it, but I would comply with the demands of a killer ice queen.
So wasn't she only with the government because "survival of the fittest" and the government was strong enough to rule? Couldn't he have just explained that Night Raid was clearly the stronger side and the only reason the government was staying in control was due in large part to her own strength? Like when she was on the government side they still couldn't get rid of Night Raid and the rebellion, but if she were to join Night Raid they would probably overthrow the government soon after.
>>136306153 I thought that part of the reason for her fighting was for the thrill of battle? IIRC she mentions keeping some of her victims alive so that they'll become stronger and possibly give her a challenge later.
>>136310340 She's a remorseless genocidal psychopath who could snap him like a twig. Worst girl, bar none. The only excuse people have for liking Esdeath is ignorance. But if you want tits, Leone's right there.
>>136302837 >There was no way to tell if she really wanted to get dicked. >implying You could hear the sound of her gushing pussy from the north to the south border of the empire. Do you require God personally to grab your dick and jam it into her vagina to make it clear?
>>136301171 I would tell her I am an undercover member of Night Raid and that I will never join her cause, nor engage with any sexual relations or activities with her. So she can just put her slut general clothes back the fuck on before I turn that castle we're sleeping in, into a got damn battle zone.
I'd fucking wreck her shit before she has time to summon any ice weapons to attack me and blow up half the building, while all the other jaegers are trying to figure out what's going on, I would have made it far enough to hide in the city streets until leaving the city.
>>136313671 Yeah, but at least his family was alright. His service in the military left them financially well off. His wife was glad to know she had helped such a troubled man during his life while his daughter did all she could for those who struggled, knowing her father would have wanted something good to come from his life. And that is all.
>>136310340 Because he's another fucking faggot anime protagonist that won't ever fuck girls because japs cant get their tiny limp dicks up and therefore if he does fuck a girl all the angry jap dick manlets will go into an autistic fit
>>136314052 Did you fucking forget Bols was a got damn murder who slaughtered thousands and burned down villages where innocent people lived? Cause I sure didn't, Chelsea didn't do shit bad when she gave that fucker a nice, clean respectable death.
I personally enjoyed the after thought about his family struggling, that fucker didn't even deserve one.
I guess if a murderer was a nice man, you'd want him to have a good life right?
>>136315887 No I wouldn't, had Esdeath joined Tatsumi. I would have boycotted the manga. And besides that, Wave would probably take the lead of the Capital's forces and used some kind of asspull to make himself and his armor stronger than Esdeath OR Tatsumi and the entirety of Night Raid's forces.
Wave on his own would want to murder everyone including Esdeath because in his mind they are trying to bring pain to Kurome.
>>136315860 You'd be crazy too if you grew up in a kill-or-be-killed environment in the far northern reaches of the world, growing up as an absurdly powerful child and eventually drinking Danger Beast blood.
In any case, it's not insanity. She possesses rationality, it's just that she's a complete and utter psychopath.
>>136316138 >bend her to my will with love Enjoy that monumental challenge. May take a while.
>replace her need for fighting with love Even more challenging.
>>136316220 >she would have cut his cock clean off with ice if he tried to fuck her. Evidently you didn't pay attention to the manga or even the show. She says herself that she doesn't give two shits what he's a part of as long as he becomes hers.
>>136319563 She isn't, you dumbass, according to the anime, the only thing that could kill her is Akame's trump card, which now ceases to exist thank to Wave thus Esdeath's become unkillable in this route.
>>136306560 Yes, but Esdeath isn't just a mindless berserker, she's also very smart thus she chooses the best decisions for her way of life. As shitty and corrupted as the current government is, Honest at least is a man of his words. As long as Esdeath doing her job well, he would keep his part of the deal and let her do as she pleases without trying to do anything funny behind the scene. But the same thing cannot be apply for the rebels, Esdeath clearly sees through their true nature, which was demonstrated at the end of the anime. They're all backstabbers who would betray and try to kill their comrades to monopolize all power for themselves as soon as their enemies are defeated, Akame learnt it the hard way.
>>136303158 At this point, it should have it's own trope name >Woman throws herself at MC >MC tells her no, even though he really wants to >TFW we will never get a decent anime where the MC goes through with it and his regret in doing so serves as character development.
Esdeath seems like she wouldn't be satisfied with anything less then an industrial demolition jackhammer. Tatsumi probably stopped himself to save her the disappointment and in turn the spine snapping when she gets bored of him.
>>136320205 did you even watch the ending of the anime? or are you just pulling this analysis out of your anus? Akame volunteers to take the fall for all the excesses of Night Raid. She chose to do that, no one forced her. She's a killer, and she knows no other way of life. Settling down under the new administration isn't in the cards for her.
To quote one Army Special Forces officer: "I suppose that in any well-ordered society people like us would be locked up or shot. But then you would have to get people like us to do the locking up and shooting."
>>136320361 She still has a hidden trump card and who know if she can still create more? Meanwhile it's just a few more time and Tatsumi will succumb completely to Tyrant. Maybe this time it's the ancient monster will be the last boss, making Esdeath and Wave join force to defeat it.
>>136301171 Literally fuck her, if I was the MC she's the guy I've been looking for it's just selfish to say no to someone that attractive that's looking for someone to be with for the rest of her life, who knows she could become less crazy when she has someone to protect.
>>136320370 I don't know, she seemed pretty infatuated with everything about Tatsumi. He could give the most disappointing dicking in the world and she'd still probably be getting off just on the fact that it's him.
>>136301171 Give her the dick and see if she would become a better person. If you can't beat a female in a fair fight to the death, fuck her. You have nothing to lose, if she joins you thats a win and if she kills you, you got laid before you died. Win Win Situation
>>136320443 I know she volunteers, but it was only because they made it looked like there should be some scapegoat to take all the blame, so obviously Akame would think it's her role. The point here is those bastards wanted some idiot to play the dark knight so that they would look innocent and rule the country without worry, instead of committing themselves to solve social problems thoroughly like any proper government should do. I don't know about you, but making your comrade take all the blame, ruining their reputation and threatening their life are the very definition of betrayal in my book.
And you know what's more irony? The sentence you quote basically means to maintain order in any well-ordered society, there's always the need for people like Akame to world under the government. She's the equivalent of our special forces, whose job is to kill people, meaning they're killers too. Or do you believe we don't need them too?
>>136320553 >The retard believes Esdeath's army of all things is her trump card while the author still hasn't said what it was One more thing, either this is the first manga your read or you are under 12 to think Wave won't appear against to fight at the last battle.
>>136312852 It's not the about who is the guy in charge, otherwise Esdeath should have crowned herself queen since she is the empire's strongest. It's about the social structure. The empire's system ensure the strong have all the rights to prey on the weak, which fits her philosophy, while the RA wants to protect the weak, which's against it.
>>136321092 >Some vague words and he really believes he know what her trump card is Thank god the author's intelligent level is higher than you. Otherwise he would have really spoiled something that important this early.
>>136320940 I'm probably gonna take hell for this but...
I think the real problem with AgK, both the anime and the manga, is that the author has no understanding of the dynamics of history. No state subsists on fear alone, not for any meaningful length of time anyway. Every empire has always offered something to even the lowliest of peasants. Rome gave out grain, and brought peace and civilization to the provinces. Napoleon rode across Europe not only with his armies, but also with the promise of liberty, equality, and (locally) democratic government. The British took over India not only with guns and bullets, but also with healthcare and infrastructure.
It's a very Japanese thing the notion of sacrificing the honor and dignity of some individual in order to preserve those things for the group. In fact, that motif is almost omnipresent in Japanese culture, the economy, and politics. http://www.thejapanfaq.com/FAQ-Primer.html can explain this a lot better than I can. It still comes across as clumsy, and even treacherous in this context, at least to our Western eyes, but it's not without precedent even here. Robespierre was ultimately chosen as the fall guy for the Reign of Terror, and he also paid, probably unjustly, with his life for that.
>>136320640 >ruthless soldier >ruthless general >strong as shit >girly in bed >coaches both you and herself through sex >laughs to lighten the mood when it gets awkward eliciting chuckles from you as well >wants to cuddle afterwards for the afterglow
>>136315628 >Bols was a soldier acting on order from a legitimate goverment to kill who they deemed enemies of the state >Chelsea was an assassin working for a shady rebellion moment to kill government's officers See the different?
>>136321393 >I think the real problem with AgK, both the anime and the manga, is that the author has no understanding of the dynamics of history I absolutely agree with you, this author has no understanding about history and revolutions, for he is a Japs and Japan had no real revolution in their history. I don't really understand their honor and dignity thingies, but I think their rank and class based society is also another factor, right?
About Robespierre, he became the scapegoat because he failed. Should he be able to remain in power, he would probably have been hailed as the new France's founding father, the same way Soviet's Lenin was (coincidentally, Lenin also frequently defended Robespierre in his speeches).
But leaving those real life reference aside, what's canon in the story is the rebels did put the blame on their comrade right after they won, implied their treasonous nature, thus Esdeath's decision to not join them was justified.
I really liked the fact that she acted like a real assassin. It would have become boring and problematic for the plot if she had keep stabbing people in their necks while they have their guards down though.
Well, Bols and the other jaegers were trying to kill them. Would you really judge a character for murdering a murderer that wanted to murder her and her friends? It's like Lelouch says, if you're going to shoot, you better be ready to get shot.
>>136321150 But people like the minister are the weak ones, and she seems to be aware of it to an extent. You'd think she'd be able to realize that the system she's part of is just another way for the weak to assert themselves and without the cooperation of stronger individuals like her, they'd be unable to rule.
The Prime Minister must have some deal of power, also even Esdeath has to know that there's other kinds of power in the real world. If we weren't to just apply survival of the fittest, we wouldn't have ever progressed from tribalism to civilization.
You can think that, while the Prime Minister may be weak, he actually provides something Esdeath cares for. So, it's in her best interests to let him live and "work" for him, which is basically doing whatever she wants. The Prime Minister has to handle a lot of shit, while Esdeath only has to kill some specific fuckers, something she likes to do anyway, and gets to enjoy the highest status her society can offer.
>>136322417 You seem to be under the impression that "weak" or "strong" is solely defied by one's physical strength. As I said, if that was the case, Esdeath should have become queen herself to fit her philosophy. Honest is "strong" in the sense that he waves massive political power to order people doing what he wants. The social model Esdeath agrees with is where the "strong" (politically or physically) can do whatever they want toe the "weak" and the state has no problem with that, basically, a society ruled by the law of jungle, while the rebels advocate a system where they promise even the weak will be protect by the law. She doesn't care if they can actually rule with or without her, she just want to see a society ruled by her philosophy.
>>136322223 Think about the amazing little fact that the Japanese imperial dynasty has never been overthrown, despite having existed for long that it stretches back into the realm of myth, and you realize just how unusual Japanese history is. People tend to write what they know, and I think therefore it's easy to see just how the author managed to screw this up.
I get that it's fictional, but I'm sorry, it really broke my suspension of disbelief way too often for my tastes. As long as the characters are humans, we expect them to behave as humans do, and therefore the laws of historical gravity fall into place along with them.
Revolution is not so much a right as it is a fact. As long as it takes people to control people, the population of any nation has within it the power to control its own destiny. Very few anime get this correct. Most revolutions in Japanese media are depicted as primarily the actions of one important person, usually the MC, and perhaps a small band of his (and it's almost always "his") followers.
A good Western analogy would be Germany. Notice how two of the countries that fell to fascism are also the two with the historically most conformist cultures? However, Japan, unlike Germany, has really never reconciled with its history. Sometimes it feels that if not for WWII and the total surrender, Japan would still be a very authoritarian state. Japan's past wrongdoings aren't acknowledged; they're scrubbed from the textbooks.
I think this all very much has an impact on anime, especially those that deal with broad societal issues like AgK, KLK, SAO, and GiTS. Not coincidentally, they also seem to be the hardest for us Westerners to relate to. It's like the opposite of looking through a microscope: everything looks normal up close, but it starts getting weird once you zoom out.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I didn't want to leave any mistaken impressions by shortchanging the analysis.
>>136315401 >If Esdeath was on the protagonists' side you cucklords would be all over here. If she was on his side since the beginning, then it's okay. If she chanted sides, it would cheapen her already pretty stupid characterization.
>>136324869 Anti-capitalism is kinda standard-fare for the cyberpunk genre, and GiTS is just Japan's interpretation of it. It's not just SAC II. Note how The Matrix, which was heavily influenced by the original 1995 film, also has deep anti-capitalist themes in it.
>>136301171 Try to fuck her and see if she mellows out. If she doesn't I guess run away in the middle of the night? Would she be more willing to compromise after having sex for the first time and then having the guy leaving? Or does she go super yandere and now you're chained up in a dungeon if she catches you again?
>>136329781 Dude, she chains Tatsumi up in a dungeon the first chance she gets even without the sex. She basically tells him "fuck my eager pussy and I'll get you out of here and make your life a paradise" and he's all "nope, I'm gay for Lubbock".
>>136320640 What do you mean "in bed"? She's socially retarded and a battle whore but still girly. According to Takahiro she loves to have a fun atmosphere and gives nicknames to things. She's calling fake mountain "Famo". Did you also see her dressing up and having tea time?
>>136333408 Esdeathfags are so beta, they should be called gammas. "Oh look, it's a warm human with a vagina. I'm such a virgin, I want to fuck the shit out of it regardless of what she's done or who she is, and live out my life willfully oblivious to the evil she's responsible for."
Esdeath is a horrible human being who causes discord for her own pleasure, tortures people for fun and needs to die, not because she deserves it (death is too good for her) but because the world needs to be rid of her.
Yet, I also want her to tenderly hold me in her arms and love me until the end of my days. I doubt it's possible to honestly hate her after watching episode 14's theater.
>>136323201 >Very few anime get this correct. Most revolutions in Japanese media are depicted as primarily the actions of one important person, usually the MC, and perhaps a small band of his (and it's almost always "his") followers This. Japanese medias always hold a weird prejudice against any kind of social changing ideal. Just look at shows like Code Geass or Death Note. Japaneses almost always depict "revolutionists" as some kind of megalomaniac psychopath who would always receive contribution at the end for daring to challenge social order. They don't seem to understand that the social system sometimes has to be changed for the good of the people.
Even right within this show, at the start, Najenda, as one of the RA's leader, even said that they're all killers and would receive their punishment later, even though they're basically revolutionists fighting to overthrow an evil regime. Where did she get this retarded idea? Each and every time in mankind's history, whenever a revolutionary moment want to overthrow a totalitarian government, the first thing they had to do was putting themselves on the moral high ground, glorifying their cause to maintain their troops and followers' high morale. Any moment which was unable to do this failed eventually, since if you can't even convince your own guys you're fighting for a just cause and all of your actions are justified, how can you make the population follow you? I doubt if this author ever read the US and Southern Africa's history, he would wonder why people didn't hang George Washington and Nelson Mandela after the revolution succeed.
>>136320253 >TFW we will never get a decent anime where the MC goes through with it and his regret in doing so serves as character development. I didn't know I wanted to watch this. Anything but school days though
>>136333844 >causes discord for her own pleasure, tortures people for fun Implying other people won't when a chance appears and they know they will face no consequence after, especially us here on /a/.
>>136334936 >Where did she get this retarded idea? >Muh US and South African history The American "Revolution" was a French-backed independence war, and Nelson Mandela would be on par with Al-Baghdadi if he didn't kill whitey.
Where the Japanese get the idea of people recieving punishment is from actual revolutions. They have the tendency to eat their own children. We saw this in France and we saw this in Russia.
While Japan's history of dynastic stability and conservatism may have something to do with how they depict social change in their media, revolutions tend to backfire on those who start them. And the people who start them, if they are intelligent at least, often see this backfiring coming.
I will give Takahiro props if he actually depicts the post-revolutionary struggle where the radicals and moderates turn on eachother. Then again, that'd be good writing, which Takahiro hasn't shown yet.
>>136335243 >Where the Japanese get the idea of people recieving punishment is from actual revolutions. They have the tendency to eat their own children. We saw this in France and we saw this in Russia. Somehow I think you got the wrong idea. Yes, revolutionist usually kills each other after the revolution, bring forth an era of more bloodshed and turmoil. the French and Russian revolutions are prime example. But it wasn't because they though they committed some kind of unforgivable crimes like breaking the social order or killing too much and therefore should receive karmic punishments, like the author here tried to imply. It's simply inner-power struggle because they just couldn't agree who should be in charge, they basically killed each other to become the next dictator and anyone who was smart enough could easily predict it but I bet none of them thought their cause was unjust and felt guilty over what they did.
I also highly doubt Takahiro can depict any meaningful post-revolutionary struggle, considering how the anime ended. They put all the blame on a simple assassin and everyone else could live happily ever after. You got the idea.
>>136335572 Shit, that's a good point actually. Now that you mention it, there did seem to be some Karmic element behind it when Najenda mentioned their punishment. And it is never explained why.
This could work if the show actually had grey morality, but it doesn't. Despite all pretenses the good guys are good, and the bad guys comically evil. Other than Bols, did Night Raid ever kill anyone on-screen/panel that had any redeeming traits whatsoever? No, simply having children isn't a redeeming trait.
>>136335243 No, Mr. Edmund Burke Jr., you're wrong on virtually every level.
Revolutions are messy, but they are nevertheless a form of progress. I bet you're a britfag who convienently forgot about shit like the English Civil War and the Glorious Revolution. "Revolutions are the locomotives of history" to quote Marx, and he's not wrong on that one.
The French Revolution wasn't all sunshine and roses, but it did bring about the end of feudalism and put France on the path towards liberal, egalitarian democracy. Revolutions brought about the end of Soviet tyranny in Eastern Europe, and toppled dictatorships in Greece, Portugal, the Philippines, and Indonesia. Tunisia is a better place now than it was before the Arab Spring, with a stable civil government.
The arc of the universe is long, but it arcs towards justice. You'd think that'd make a great backdrop for an anime, but unfortunately the extent of social and political conservatism in Japan appears to make that a third rail subject. It'd be interesting to see if less regulated forms of media, like Japanese webcomics, give history a different treatment.
>>136335637 >No, Mr. Edmund Burke Jr. You missed the point where I referred to Slavoj Zizek, didn't you? If anything, I'm more likely to side with Paine than Burke. Just saying that revolutions, whether they're for good or for ill, tend to eat their children. I guess we'd better stop lest the janitor decides it's been too long since we've called eachothers waifus shit.
>The arc of the universe is long, but it arcs towards justice. You'd think that'd make a great backdrop for an anime, but unfortunately the extent of social and political conservatism in Japan appears to make that a third rail subject. Intredasting idea, but I doubt its truth to be honest. I don't really believe French feudalism was unjust, as it arose because it was needed. It was just that between the Hundred Years War and the Revolution, the need for feudalism had disappeared with the rise of professional armies, yet the Second and First estates still demanded privileges they no longer deserved. Revolutions simply set straight what peaceful change failed to set straight.
old Boss Lady is probably now sending Akame to ga kill her political enemies within the new democratic republic
Tatsumi should've just manned up, nailed Esdeath and embraced his destiny to win the imperial throne by his own hand and he can begin top-down reforms while his waifu trundles around pregnant with a soccer team.
>>136335835 The "arc of the universe" thing is, to be clear, a quote from MLK, not my own phrasing.
Feudalism was, like all socioeconomic systems, at one point at least necessary for the development of society. It became unjust when it wouldn't get out of the way of history.
Japan's history is very unusual, even for Asia. I think that when mangaka try to apply that history to other societies, it comes across as unrealistic. These are artists and writers after all, not historians. It's a problem that Hollywood also has at times.
>>136335621 I think the author has some ideas about grey morality, but for some reasons couldn't really put them into practice (his editorial staff for example), like how Nightraid was perfectly fine with killing innocent bystanders like Tatsumi if they refused to step aside in chapter 1, or how Kurome's actions was somewhat justified by her recently revealed background.
This show could be much better if its character are all grey instead of just black or white. The PM could be a national extremist who rules with iron fist to hold the country together instead of just a comical murder rapist. Mein could have been too obsessed with revenge and ended up killing many innocent civilians along with Justice-chan while she was trying to protect them, and so on. Many wasted potentials.
>>136336415 >Bols working for a corrupt government where people are treated like shit and used by the government in extortion. Soldiers do not bear any responsibility for their government's decisions. It's not a crime to simply follow orders. >Chelsea, working in a rebellion to help bring peace and power back to the people where they no longer have to be treated like cattle to the government. Debatable. We know jack shit about the rebel forces and their true motive. Beside, the reason Chelsea killed Bols was more of a petty personal revenge than anything.
>>136336649 >Soldiers do not bear any responsibility for their government's decisions. It's not a crime to simply follow orders. The world dosen't agree with you. To this day Japanese and Nazi soldiers are still being caught and persecuted for he massacres they committed.
http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/militarylaw1/a/obeyingorders.htm > An order which is unlawful not only does not need to be obeyed, but obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution of the one who obeys it. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders -- if the order was illegal.
>>136337048 You mean generals and officers who gave orders instead of mere grunts? >>136337063 > An order which is unlawful not only does not need to be obeyed But in this series' setting, based on what standard you decide if an order is lawful or not? The orders Bols carried certainly fit the empire's law and it's not like there's any international law to say otherwise.
>>136337320 If you want to pull "in this setting" shenanigans, which is pretty ill-defined, then you're basically ruining all possible conversation. In this setting there are magical uber beasts whose leather makes magical uber weapons. In this setting there's a dude who can see the fucking future. In this setting there may very well be a very real mechanism to the world itself which WILL punish the rebels as Najenda says. The japanese would probably call it karma.
All you can use "in this setting" for is exactly what it describes: a lawless tyranny employing psychopaths and with a puppet ruler manipulated by a fat fuck psychopath.
>>136337612 Because he has sufficient morality and intellect (aka, not zero thereof) to know that what he's being told to do, and what he has been told to do, is OBJECTIVELY HORRID. Half of his screen time is spent talking about how he deserves a horrible death and punishment for doing these things.
>>136337694 But moral and law are two completely different things. You can disobey an order because it's unlawful, but you can't say "No" just because you think it's immoral. >Half of his screen time is spent talking about how he deserves a horrible death and punishment for doing these things Blame the autistic author for this.
>>136337776 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objector >The international definition of conscientious objection officially broadened on March 8, 1995 when the United Nations Commission on Human Rights resolution 1995/83 stated that "persons performing military service should not be excluded from the right to have conscientious objections to military service."
Again, we can pull "in this setting" all we want to try to dismiss this, but the point is that someone currently serving in the armed forces having a lawful right and moral backing to refuse their duties on moral grounds is an established concept in our world. So it is reasonable to assume that the reader should expect this as well unless told otherwise.
Hell, fucking Wave and Kurome basically just refused continued service based on moral objections, and I think most people's reactions were "fucking finally, go save and bang that damage goods loli, bro!"
>>136337776 Everyone in the setting is still human. Human morality is more or less universal. Toddlers know right from wrong before they can speak. And morality is the standard by which all law, indeed all actions, are judged. As legal scholars say, lex iniusta non est lex: an unjust law is no law at all. Any order which is patently and obviously immoral is inherently unlawful. This is the Nuremberg standard, but variations on it have existed for millennia.
>>136337878 And Kurome was subject to harsh psychological and chemical conditioning to make the very idea of refusing service terrifying and painful to her. And she could *still* see through things well enough to chose Wave's dick and to hope for a happier life over continuing to serve the empire. But what about Bols? We were never shown him receiving such conditioning, and his constant self-recriminations seem to make it clear that he has definitely not. And at some point he has a loving wife. And a loving daughter. Yet he still follows his every unconscionable order because...why, exactly?
>>136304003 That's fucking awful. We could have had a VN where the characters would actually get more backstory and development, but instead we get yet another anime that brutally bastardizes the source material?
>>136341135 Problem with VN is the whole characterization is subservient to the format. A VN is basically a "dating sim" so all the bitches are meant to lust after the MC. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but it does limit the characterization. As a manga, the story had a little more freedom. Not that Takahiro accomplished much with that. The guy's a hack.
About the only good thing that came out of this being a manga was Akame not falling for Tatsumi's dick. That wouldn't have been possible in a VN.
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