So I guess this means that Urobuchi won't be involved with whatever new Madoka thing Shaft is hyping? So which will be worse, new Madoka or Psycho Pass S2?
Who says he can't write the script and do madoka at the same time?
Taken together, that sounds like Uro and Shinbo are each going to work on something else for a bit before going back to work on the next Madoka thing in earnest.
Maybe use this time to brainstorm Madoka on the side.
Psycho Pass S2 has been out for ages. Fucking newfags where are you all coming from?
He's said in the past he'd like to leave the project to others. But everything indicates that Madoka S3/movie 4 is still in the planning stages and that no one's written anything yet.
It's a shitty meme where they pretend it didn't exist, anon.
Basically this. I'm pretty sure I've seen somewhere before that he was gonna have someone else do the next part.
That's an eroge probably, it's an account made by n+ with seemingly no anime publisher affiliation. But then again, he did say he'll use a pen name the next time he's writing an eroge.
Butch likes working on new things, it could be something out of left field like Kamen rider.
He wants to fix some of the mistakes he did on Gaim now that he has the proper know-how.
>Maybe it could be a non-ero VN?
I highly doubt that, that's what their 5pb collab is for.
>Rebellion was not that good
Ok big guy
I agree and I want to see Urobuchi and Shinbo fix their mistake.
>Urobuchi is working on a project that's being announced Febuary
>this means he can't work on the new Madoka project that hasn't even been announced yet
Why is /a/ so retarded?
How about the fact that Inu Curry is splitting up After the new Madoka movie? It seems like nobody even cares. Inu Curry are the people who do all the crazy animation that make Madoka look like Madoka.
Well that's not why they are splitting up. It's because a member of the team Aye is fighting some sort of serious Illness. It sucks because I've always been a fan of there work even before all the Madoka stuff. They are actually the only Japanamation to have work respected in the modern art world. I actually learned about them in my art class.
JNN did a story on it. It's apparently not going to have any affect on the new movie. They don't actually know what's wrong with her because they are keeping it mostly under the table. I just hope it isn't anything serious that's going to kill her.
I can't seem to find the article? Or any article about it? Or Inu Curry at all? Anybody have it or even Know what I'm Talking about?
I'm googling, I can't find anythiong about them splitting up or health problems that doesn't come from /a/ posts. Still possible that something is out there in japanese and some anon translated it.
OP is lying his arse off.
Urobuchi is doing a new project this spring, but the timetable for the new Madoka project hasn't been announced yet
Furthermore, Shaft said the Quartet will be handling the new Madoka series, minus the Producer Guy(I.e. the member no one cares about)
It's just ebin trolling revolving around the Butch
i really like these two. This is my first time seeing this ending and I can easily tell they made it.
Google their Artwork. It's creepy and beautiful in a weird way.
I called it; Madoka is cursed like the Poltergeist movies. First the tsunami, then Miyu Matsuki dying (she was only one degree removed from Madoka; sort of a warning to the Madoka crew if you will), and now Ayume.
They should stop after this next thing before something happens to Ao-chan or Chiwa.
Hey we don't know if she's going to Die! The story said she's just fighting some sort of serious illness. For all we know it could just be temporary. That's bad karma to say she's just dying.
Guys. It's 12 episodes and one movie. Does "milking" officially mean "making more of a thing" now? What the fuck.
Welcome to every popular anime ever, merchandise is a huge chunk of how they make money. But the main series itself has gotten a very small amount of content, so why would people be so disgusted at it being continued? If anything that's preferable to more pointless spinoffs.
I used to go along with it until someone said we all have Stockholm syndrome from watching so many 1 cour TV shows that never get continuations. It was in a thread trash talking Shaft for planning to fully adapt all the Monogataris, as if that's a bad thing to not drop a series after doing the bare minimum. I realize /a/ isn't 1 person, it's 2 people, but if there's any other series anons want a 2nd season of then it's not milking but when it's Shaft then it is.
A lot of Westerners fetishize "originality" and "innovation," so they think sequels have to be a bad thing.
Though in Madoka's case "milking" would actually be accurate. Rebellion was supposed to end on conclusive note like the series, but they butchered it at the last minute to make way for a sequel. Madoka was too popular and they just couldn't walk away from it. But also didn't know how they could continue it without making a direct sequel.
even if madoka took homura back to mahou shoujo vallhalla its not as if the incubators weren't going to do what they did again with a different strategy so potential for a sequal would have still existed.
Western TV rarely ever has only 12 half-hour episodes though. The only popular short series that comes to mind is Firefly and that was 14 hour long episodes plus a movie. I like the Stockholm theory because it's a unique attitude anime fans have that series shouldn't be over 5 hours long total.
Madoka never had a conclusive ending because it originally ended with Homura fighting mysterious wraiths in the desert as wings sprout out. Rebellion wasn't that much more of a cliffhanger, if anything it's closer to being a conclusion.
The series' ending implied that Homura would continue fighting. Sufficiently conclusive, and wasn't designed with a sequel in mind. Rebellion's ending was designed as a cliff hanger twist ending that's going to lead into a sequel.
People who can see how awful the ending is are well in the minority.
Who is the coolest witch and why is it Patricia?
The Madoka fanbase on /a/ consists almost entirely of circlejerking retards now.
Elsa Maria only looks cool because of how uncool Sayaka was while fighting her.
But Sayaka looked super cool when fighting her.
Is the movie honestly not enjoyable for all fans up till ai yo? I thought only the ending was divisive. But people do have a tendency to judge something based on how it ended rather than everything beforehand so maybe that couldn't account for the score.
Sayaka you're the biggest baka you do not look cool.
Stop posting on /a/ and go eat some apple.
Dude Sayaka is the coolest
Everything before the ending specifically builds up to the ending. The chuuni adventures, the yuri, everything. It's all about Homura not accepting that that world is not real and Madoka will never be that happy. So, if you like the movie but hate the ending, you missed the point entirely.
>110% inu curry from start to finish
>those delicious transformation scenes
>that mami/homu fight
I thought it was a great movie all over the place.
BIG BLUE BAKA
The ending was added after the fact, it was never a planned part of the story. Which is why everything is so hilariously disjointed.
And Homura did clearly accept that the dream world isn't real.
>The ending was added after the fact
No it wasn't, stop spreading misinformation. The interviews you base this on are all about the storyboarding process. That is, before they actually made anything. Urobuchi couldn't come up with a good way to end it, so Shinbo suggested devil end. Then they wrote the story.
They're obviously not going to say in public that, yeah, they just added in a totally new ending at the last minute without integrating it into the rest of the story in any way.
The fact that the movie was actually made that way can be deduced by watching it. There is no continuity between the ending and the rest of the movie, and Homura's characterization is suddenly balls-to-the-wall bizarre.
This is objectively wrong. The movie was basically set up as closure for the characters, and was building up to them accepting their situation but still being happy that they could be together.
There are interviews where we find out the ending was changed for the purpose of shitty sequel bait. If you think you're smart for "getting" an ending that the writer literally did not plan or build up to, you're actually retarded.
>the ending not being perfect
It was setup at the end of the second movie. Homura's plan went according to keikaku. They could have just let her die and Madoka would have been protected, the incubators denied their observation, but nooooo. So Homura had to take over and incidentally win everything forever.
The interview stated Urobuchi intended to write the story from the start to save Madoka from godhood, but couldn't think of how, so instead of Madoka and Homura going off together he was suggested Homura going against her. Source: I have my collector's BD with the interview sitting in front of me.
Once again, the Madoka fanbase on /a/ is fucking retarded and uninformed.
>They're obviously not going to say in public
So you're admitting to making shit up to justify your dislike for the ending.
The ending was changed, yes, but DURING THE PLANNING STAGE. Moron. That means when they actually went to make the movie, they already had the whole thing in mind. And you're retarded if you don't see the simple narrative that the entire movie leads up to.
Rebellion IS the milking. It's filled with fan service and fan memes. Everyone has their memories and personality modified to better fit how fans saw them.
The ending was the good part.
Like I said, the ending was added afterwards. It wasn't part of the original script. That's why it's so jarring.
That's the official story. Again, they are not going to admit to fucking things up. That's not really good PR.
By your logic, if a politician says he did not do something then he surely must not have done it, even if evidence says he did.
I haven't made up anything. I've just watched the movie and drawn logical conclusions.
Rebellion would have been a perfectly fine sequel if they had stuck to the original ending.
This isn't logic. "The ending was added afterwards, they even admitted it. Oh, they didn't admit that and I'm a moron? Well, obviously they wouldn't say for real what they did. I can tell the ending was added afterwards though because I'm so smart."
Yeah you really convinced me there brainiac.
I want to Netflix and chill with Madoka.
Like I said, there is no continuity. The ending doesn't add up with the rest of the story in any way. Nothing makes sense, things come out of nowhere, the plot holes are big enough for a titan to fit through.
Rebellion as it is should never have happened. Urobuchi said shortly after the series in an official guidebook if I'm not mistaken that if there was any new PMMM work Homura wouldn't forget Madoka. Guess what, for like half of the movie Homura does not remember who Madoka truly is or means to her, and the premise is that she had been doubting her memories. Fuck this.
>episode 12 not conclusive
>no more timelooping, the basis for the plot, confirmed
>last exchange between the two protagonists along with the knowledge of how their next meeting will unfold
>knowledge of what changed in the meguca system as said by Kyubey itself, this being the very point of Madoka's wish
>other characters also have their respective conclusions, some more than others
>Homura's new way of life shown with her clinging to her memories of Madoka and fighting in her name
I hate you people that demand the smallest minutiae to be handed them on a plate when the story already flows well without them being explained away. What more did you want, it ending with the coming of Homura's time to be carried away by Madoka? If anything that would go the other way and completely revert the hope message the ending tried to build.
>Homura carries on hoping throughout innumerable timelines and would only despair once she knew that she had been making things worse through each one
>want series to end with Homura giving up hope in a world Madoka built for the sake of hope's and dreams of magical girls staying true rather than being turned against them
Seriously. The fact that a given main character if no more than a mortal, and thus will die someday, does not mean their respective story can only be concluded with his/her death, now does it?
Nope, not all if I count myself among them, and I already could tell the ending was gonna be a disappointing halfway through. Ai yo ending is still better than what some other faggots wanted it to be however.
>The ending doesn't add up with the rest of the story in any way.
Homura described madoka's situation as being a fate worse than death at the end of the series, so its not like her motivation came out of nowhere.
The ending absolutely fits in with the rest of the story. If you think it was all leading up to Homura dying peacefully you weren't paying attention. Ultimately Homura decided that Madoka's fate was too cruel, and took steps to rectify it.
Now, if you think this was all poorly handled, that's another thing entirely. We can, and have, argued for years over whether the ending was well-done, but that's ultimately opinions. What you are trying to argue is a statement of fact which you have no actual evidence for.
Oh, look. A jaded self-righteous fuck.
>HURR I ONLY BELIEVE WHAT I ASSUME IS RIGHT. THEY MUST BE DOING THIS AND THAT BECAUSE I THINK SO! I REFUSE TO BELIEVE ANY OTHER OUTCOME DURRR!
When Madoka arrives and Homura drops the plot twist, it's clear that she had been planning it all along.
HOWEVER, during the movie, is there any evidence of her planning anything? Is there any evidence that she is pretending? We are always in her perspective and even know what she's thinking. So how exactly was she planning or plotting anything? We know for a fact she wasn't. But then suddenly she was. Ok.
And nevermind how she was able to do what she did and how she knew she could do it.
The series ends on a wistfully hopeful note, and although Homura's initial impression is that Madoka has suffered some terrible fate there is actually nothing to support that. Madoka is no longer the normal human she used to be, and is not experiencing her existence like a normal human would.
In Rebellion, Homura is determined to escape the dream world so that Madoka's sacrifice won't be in vain.
When evidence says that they added the ending later and their official statement says they didn't, I go with the evidence.
There was also the unresolved issue of Homura still being a magical girl despite not having her wish of preventing Madoka from becoming one fulfilled, which was the actual basis for the plot. It was a good, satisfying ending but it was left somewhat open, with a direct sequel being evidence.
Oh yes, she just decided to do this whole thing on a whim and then hashed out the details in a couple of minutes, and the audience had no clue.
It really pains me to know that people actually believe this.
>although Homura's initial impression is that Madoka has suffered some terrible fate there is actually nothing to support that
She has nothing to confirm or deny that after episode 12, she just has to fight alone.
It's only with Rebellion that she gets a chance to talk with Madoka about it at all, and that talk reinforces her initial impression.
Yes, that's what it seems to be. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Again, if you have a gripe with the way it was handled that's a totally separate issue from what we're discussing. You're trying to prove something about the actual production process.
The wish Homura asked out of Kyubey never was for her to not become meguca, but to redo their meeting.
They got to meet each other once more in episode 12 once more, now also with the shared knowledge all about what they has went through for the first time since the very first few timelines.
Don't be silly anon, Homura would never do something bad.
The flower field scene reinforces her decision to escape the dream world. As I have tried to tell people, the scene is the middle part of a sequence of three related scenes. But people take it out of context and REFUSE TO ADMIT that the other scenes even exist!
Ok, what about if I explained everything by saying that nanomachines did it? Well, why not? If I can come up with an explanation--any explanation--then surely that's good enough?
>Again, if you have a gripe with the way it was handled that's a totally separate issue from what we're discussing. You're trying to prove something about the actual production process.
They are related, because "the way it was handled" proves that they're lying about how the movie was produced.
>The flower field scene reinforces her decision to escape the dream world
>They are related, because "the way it was handled" proves that they're lying about how the movie was produced.
That's not how proof works. "I don't like it therefore it must have been produced in this specific dumb way" isn't an argument. I could say this same thing about every single work of fiction that I don't like, but that doesn't make it justified. Sometimes people just make things that you don't like. Get over it.
And how is it so illogical? She could've snapped after being a test rat for extreme agony and humiliation, not to mention during the series where she had rewinded close to 100 times, watching people die around here every single time. And she's 14.
The first scene: Homura is riding the boat and thinking about escaping the dream world so that Madoka's sacrifice won't be wasted.
Second scene: Homura talks to Madoka, and realizes that although it's painful to leave Madoka behind, she can do it because Madoka also had the courage to do the same (Madoka says she couldn't do it, but she doesn't have her memories and doesn't know that she did in fact do it).
Third scene: Homura conducts the dangerous experiment of separating from her soul gem, and discovers that she is a witch in a witch's labyrinth.
People talk about the second scene, and ONLY the second scene. The very existence of the first and third scenes are never acknowledged. Nobody speaks about them, nobody replies when I bring them up. They're just ignored. They don't fit the narrative.
>That's not how proof works. "I don't like it therefore it must have been produced in this specific dumb way" isn't an argument.
I never made that argument.
>She could've snapped
This is the go-to explanation for Rebellion apologists when all else has failed. But it's nothing more than an intellectually lazy cop-out. No better than "nanomachines did it."
>Rebellion was supposed to end on conclusive note like the series
Ever since the beginning, it had been established that Madoka is never going to have a conclusive ending. The original series did not have one, Rebellion was never supposed to have one, and nothing they'll ever release will ever have a conclusive ending. It's a stylistic choice, they could be milking the franchise without their open endings just as well.
Okay, but a plot hole means there's a fault in the middle of the way, not at the ending. In other words, a plot hole bigger or smaller than that does not stop the ending from being conclusive.
Now if this really is a plot hole or not is discussion for another time. I will note however that just like in every timeline after te first Homura was essentially a irregular magical girl that Kyubey did not have on his records, so is she in the Madoverse, which makes it somewhat consistent with what had happened previously in terms of setting a precedent. This is all I'm willing to bring up on this matter right now, though.
>realizes that although it's painful to leave Madoka behind, she can do it because Madoka also had the courage to do the same
She realizes that she made a mistake in allowing Madoka to leave, because Madoka says she wouldn't want to do such a thing. That Madoka DOES in fact have the courage to do it is exactly the point: she will do something that hurts her in order to save others, because that's the kind of person she is.
The first and third scenes you mentioned aren't directly relevant to that point. There, Homura is trying to simply find out the nature of the world she is in. Once she does so, she is forced to try to kill herself in order to stop the Incubators from using Madoka. Escaping from the dream world was never an option. It's only once she's freed from the entire thing that she has the option to do something about Madoka's fate.
>I never made that argument.
Your argument is "they tacked the ending on afterwards, and the way the story is structured proves it!" But you have yet to produce any even remotely conclusive evidence of the sort. All you're saying is that you don't like the way the ending was done.
Been living under a rock?
That's not what a plot hole is. A plot hole would be a contradiction in the logic of the story. What Homura's wish is in the new universe is simply something that's not explained and left mysterious, because we don't have enough information to know about it.
>Escaping from the dream world was never an option
Are you saying that on terms of it not being feasible, or what? Because if it's on the matter of intents, Homura's was clearly going back to the "real" world because of the duty magical girls have to fight. The fight being against wraiths, supposedly, rather than nightmares that don't actually exist on places that matter.
Homura is pretty much already dead at this point, the reason she's in that situation is that she's on the brink of being taken away by the Law of Cycles. It's only the Incubators' intervention that stopped that.
The problem is, once she realizes this, she also finds out that calling out to Madoka to finish her job and take her away would only be exactly what the Incubators want, and put Madoka at risk of being manipulated by them. So from her perspective, she has no choice but to die on her own to protect Madoka. Of course, at the time she didn't realize that the Law of Cycles team already had a plan to deal with the Incubators.
The original ending would have involved Madoka taking Homura away. That's about as conclusive as it gets, unless they wanted to drop some sequel hook involving further Incubator plots (or something like that).
The series' ending was also conclusive enough. There was no sequel hook, plot twist, cliff hanger, or unresolved issues. It didn't rule out a sequel, but it also didn't need one.
The three scenes are all connected, not separate. You are simply taking the middle out of context and twisting it to suit your desired narrative. The entire sequence is about Homura rejecting the seemingly perfect dream she is in with Madoka in favor of confronting reality, whatever it is. She doesn't know what's going on, let alone that she's a witch. She just wants to get back to reality.
The idea that she just spontaneously decided, in a matter of minutes if not seconds, to somehow develop the power to copy Madoka's powers and re-create the universe and become a devil is not supported by anything either. It's fanfiction.
And I just revisited the scene, and guess what: she even says "I've waited so long for this." Then she flashes an eeeeeevil smile and says: "I've finally caught you." Then she confidently, flawlessly executes her plan. But, like I said, the movie itself proves that she couldn't have possibly planned anything.
>Your argument is "they tacked the ending on afterwards, and the way the story is structured proves it!"
I thought it was:
>"I don't like it therefore it must have been produced in this specific dumb way" isn't an argument.
But I guess you suddenly changed your mind.
>But you have yet to produce any even remotely conclusive evidence of the sort.
Except I just did.
>All you're saying is that you don't like the way the ending was done.
I thought my argument was:
>"they tacked the ending on afterwards, and the way the story is structured proves it!
But I guess you suddenly changed your mind.
That is true following her realization of who the witch was. Before that she knew there was a witch that shouldn't exist, and for a time during the movie her goal was to kill the witch and free herself and supposedly everyone else. She even thought that the Madoka in there couldn't possibly be real but was rather somehow made/controlled by the labyrinth's master.
Escaping the dream world was an option, no, the option for Homura until she unveiled more of the truth of the situation she was in and changed her mind completely on the matter.
>The entire sequence is about Homura rejecting the seemingly perfect dream she is in with Madoka in favor of confronting reality
She is doing that, but at the same time she also comes to realize that Madoka's fate was too cruel. Are you just flat-out ignoring the lines "How could I have made such a stupid mistake? I shouldn't have allowed that to happen" and so on? It seems like you are.
>The idea that she just spontaneously decided, in a matter of minutes if not seconds, to somehow develop the power to copy Madoka's powers and re-create the universe and become a devil is not supported by anything either
It's supported by the fact that that's what happened. You can like it or not, but that's what we observed.
>"I've waited so long for this."
She HAS waited a long time to see Madoka again. That doesn't imply that she was planning these events the entire time. To me it seemed like a bit of irony, in that their final meeting isn't how it was expected to be. That's far more logical that than arguing for the existence of what you admit is a contradiction.
If the whole Homura thing is her looking out for Madoka and saving her from a cruel fate why does she act like some sinister creepy slasher villain the entire time during her unexplained power up sequence and seem far more concerned with getting even with Kyubey and being a crazy psycho eyed bitch. The whole thing is just really clumsily handled if its anything other than her becoming some de facto evil largely out of the blue. People just make up shit that shes supposedly thinking that never really actually happened per se but the whole evil supervillain vibe is palpable as hell
If Urobuchi were to write Madoka before F/Z, it would have had the Ai yo ending.
Shinbo only told him that it's fine to turn Madoka and Homura into enemies, nothing more. Also the ending is a natural conclusion to Homura's whole motivation.
>If the whole Homura thing is her looking out for Madoka and saving her from a cruel fate
which she has done in a time loop where she's seen her die 100 times
do you honestly expect her to be sane after that?
She's watched her friends and her true love die over and over and over and over and over and over
Also killed them all, probably more than once
Is there an official number of loops?
When she had not acted like that after episode 12 and during all the movie up until she teams up with Madoka to remove incubator menace surrounding them in Homura's soul gem? Sure.
Thats not the point I'm making and even so she seemed to be holding together for most of the movie and already had her sanity breakdown at the end of the TV series beforr Madoka bit the bullet to save her in a much more climatic, thematically conclusive and frankly better ending with a sense of purpose.
She's had a lot of practice at appearing not to be completely off her rocker. But she always breaks down in the end.
>Are you just flat-out ignoring the lines "How could I have made such a stupid mistake? I shouldn't have allowed that to happen" and so on? It seems like you are.
It's an odd line that doesn't fit the scene and doesn't seem to mean anything in context. It's also the only thing, literally the only thing, in the entire movie that could be interpreted as supporting the ending. A single passing line of dialogue.
Also note that the scene ends with Homura saying she was happy she could meet Madoka "one more time," implying they won't meet again. As in, implying that Homura is going to return to reality where Madoka doesn't exist.
Nothing ever suggests that Madoka is suffering from a "cruel fate." She is not the Madoka she used to be, and is not experiencing her existence the way a normal human would. She is a god. The tone of the series' ending, and the flower field scene, don't support the idea of Homura being horrified by Madoka's terrible predicament.
>It's supported by the fact that that's what happened.
What happens is that she copies or steal's Madoka powers, subdues her and recreates the universe. That's the only thing we can factually say that happens. What you are proposing is an explanation for WHY it happens, and it's an explanation supported by nothing.
>She HAS waited a long time to see Madoka again.
She already met Madoka in the dream world. The presentation of the scene and her groan-inducing evil smile clearly indicate that this was all the result of long-term planning... which, as the movie proves, never could have existed.
>That's far more logical that than arguing for the existence of what you admit is a contradiction.
Plot holes aren't logical. That's why they are plot holes. Fiction is designed by people and people can make mistakes or otherwise screw things up. So you end up with things that are contradictory.
Yes, this is another thing. Her characterization is completely bonkers. It's very easy to imagine how Urobuchi would have written her if the script had been carefully planned from start to finish to end this way. We know what her character is like, and this is not even remotely consistent with it.
If she idolized her as a goddess, why did she (supposedly) think that she has to free her from her burden by any means necessary? Even supposing you're right, why would it mean that she decides to start pretending she's a b-movie villain? It's not consistent with her character.
>le Homura is insane!
Here we go again.
This is fanction, you know. Not even good fanfiction, since it makes no sense.
>It's an odd line that doesn't fit the scene and doesn't seem to mean anything in context
What? You have to be joking. You are once again admitting to disregarding something that doesn't fit your narrative. That was the entire point of that scene. They even have a flashback to
>Kaname Madoka, do you value your life?
>If so, then you must never think about becoming something else
Just to get the point across even further. That's the big revelation Homura has. Watch it again and look at the expression of shock she has as she remembers this, her original purpose. Don't post again until you've actually done this.
>She already met Madoka in the dream world
We're obviously talking about seeing Madoka again and the end of Homura's life. That's the event that's occurring, that's what Homura is talking about. She has been waiting for it. The evil smile doesn't prove anything about long-term planning, it's just indicates her decision to embrace the role of a villain in order to protect Madoka. Also known as the entire reason she did all this.
>why did she (supposedly) think that she has to free her from her burden by any means necessary?
Because she thinks that being a goddess is too much of a burden. While it's an admirable job, she doesn't want Madoka to have to do it. This is part of the paradox of their relationship: Madoka's altruistic, self-sacrificing nature is a big part of what makes Homura love her so much, and yet that's the thing that gives Homura the most pain. It keeps happening.
>why would it mean that she decides to start pretending she's a b-movie villain?
The same reason she acts like an aloof jerk throughout the series.
>The same reason she acts like an aloof jerk throughout the series
Dont forget she was talking to Sayaka. Had she said the devil shit to Kyoko or Madoka, Id be concerned. The fact she was talking to the blue baka should have tipped you off that she's not really evil.
The bullying needs to stop
Sayaka just wants justice
>You are once again admitting to disregarding something that doesn't fit your narrative.
No, that would be you. You take that one line out of context and ignore everything else, like the preceding and following scenes and Homura ending the scene by saying they are meeting for the last time.
>The evil smile doesn't prove anything about long-term planning, it's just indicates her decision to embrace the role of a villain in order to protect Madoka. Also known as the entire reason she did all this.
There are two possibilities for the scene. 1) She had been planning it all along. Conclusively disproven by the movie itself. 2) It was a sudden, spur-of-the-moment decision. Nothing supports that.
Which leaves us with possibility 3, and the real explanation: it doesn't make any sense, because of how the movie was produced. They simply slotted in a radically new ending and hoped nobody would notice (and, lucky for them, most people didn't).
Did you actually see the series and how she acts when she is doing things that make Madoka dislike and distrust her, and when she can't tell Madoka who she is and what she is trying to do?
>What happens is that she copies or steal's Madoka powers
She doesn't. It's the nature of Homura's wish and the fact that Madoka's very own strength is a direct consequence of Homura's actions that she can overpower Madoka.
>Did you actually see the series and how she acts when she is doing things that make Madoka dislike and distrust her, and when she can't tell Madoka who she is and what she is trying to do?
You are just twisting your brain into spaghetti in an effort to reconcile things. She idolizes Madoka as a goddess, yet at the same time she is insanely desperate to make her stop being one, at any cost. Yeah, no. This is just cognitive dissonance.
>The same reason she acts like an aloof jerk throughout the series.
Being an aloof jerk is part of her character. Being a scenery-chewing cartoon caricature who is constantly on the verge of winking at the audience is not part of her character.
Homura wished to re-do her meeting with Madoka. That's what she wished for and that's what she got. Nothing more.
Ok, so you didn't see the series. I understand.
She was trolling Sayaka hard though. When she finally met Madoka, she started crying at the idea of them becoming enemies.
This bitch, I swear. She needs to get her drama in order.
>You take that one line out of context and ignore everything else
It means the same thing in context. How can you possibly feel justified in flat-out ignoring it? They're telling you Homura's motivation right here and you're saying "nah nah I can't hear you". What else does this mean other than exactly what she's saying?
>It was a sudden, spur-of-the-moment decision. Nothing supports that.
Why is this so unbelievable? You may not like it as an implementation of the plot, but that doesn't make it not a possibility.
>Homura wished to re-do her meeting with Madoka. That's what she wished for and that's what she got. Nothing more.
I bet you'll never guess what Homura did at the end of Rebellion.
How can you possibly feel justified in flat-out ignoring every single thing preceding the plot twist except that one single line?
>Why is this so unbelievable?
What is there to support it?
>You may not like it as an implementation of the plot, but that doesn't make it not a possibility.
Well shit, it's also "a possibility" that the CIA brainwashed her into doing it.
The series was not written with a sequel in mind, and even Rebellion itself was not written with its ending in mind.
You did not watch the series.
The main reason why rebellion's story was bad was that it was not TOLD well. We are never given an answer to "how" homura knows she can rip madoka at the end. We were not given a good reason "why" because the first hour of the movie is lots of shit that doesn't matter in the grand context. Homura wants to escape until she finds out that the incubaters want to use her to get to madoka, right? Then she tries her hardest to get herself killed so madoka doesn't get caught. OK. That goes against her capturing madoka herself, though. It could have been explained BETTER, but it wasn't.
>She idolizes Madoka as a goddess, yet at the same time she is insanely desperate to make her stop being one, at any cost
That's not a contradiction.
>Being an aloof jerk is part of her character
No, it's actually not. Moemura is who she was originally. The aloof jerk is who she appeared to be after distancing herself from everyone.
>I don't know how to tell you what I really feel.
>Because...I'm not even living in the same time as you!
>I'm sorry. I must sound crazy, right? I must be creeping you out.
>To you, I'm just some transfer student you met a month ago.
>But to me...
>To me, you are...
>The more I repeat all this, the further apart in time we drift from one another. Our feelings also drift further apart, and my words don't reach you anymore.
>The truth is, I think I lost myself a long time ago.
Homura is literally not capable of expressing her feelings like a normal person at this point. And this was BEFORE the end of the series.
well at least the quality of Madoka threads will improve
>What is there to support it?
Homura's character as a whole?
>You did not watch the series.
Try harder. I think you can at least do better than "no u"
>The series was not written with a sequel in mind, and even Rebellion itself was not written with its ending in mind.
Who gives a fuck? Evaluate the movie on its own merits. People don't seem to understand that criticizing the production situation surrounding a film isn't an actual criticism of a film.
>Homura wished to re-do her meeting with Madoka. That's what she wished for and that's what she got. Nothing more.
Did she though.
Isn't that what wraith arc is for? Homu learned something from them.
Plus she was planning the whole thing before. She spun a labyrinth around some wraiths. Then suddenly incubators and world inside her gem and everything.
>How can you possibly feel justified in flat-out ignoring every single thing preceding the plot twist except that one single line?
I'm not. That "one line" does not contradict the rest of the movie, at all.
You're failing to answer my points. I gave direct evidence that supports my interpretation of the ending, and your response is, "yeah, well, that line is weird, it doesn't really make sense so I'll just ignore it". Of course it doesn't make sense if you flat-out refuse to consider the point they're trying to make. It's amazing that you're admitting your own failure to use reason but you still think you have a point.
>What is there to support it?
That doesn't answer my question. The point is that there is only a need for an out-of-universe explanation if there is a contradiction, but there's only a contradiction if you ignore the in-universe explanation that is presented.
Her wish was to redo the meeting. That's it. There's nothing more to it. She becomes stronger through experience.
>The aloof jerk is who she appeared to be after distancing herself from everyone.
You are being pedantic and you know exactly what I meant.
>Homura's character as a whole?
No, and even if doing something like that was in her character the scene still does not convey that she improvised a plan on the spot.
>Try harder. I think you can at least do better than "no u"
If someone didn't watch the series but claims they did then I'm simply going to say that they didn't watch the series.
>Who gives a fuck? Evaluate the movie on its own merits.
The movie is a sequel to the series. You can't separate the two.
>People don't seem to understand that criticizing the production situation surrounding a film isn't an actual criticism of a film.
The ending is irredeemable garbage, and the reason for that was the production situation.
I want to know who Madoka's favorite NFL team is.
The core of her wish is protecting Madoka. Had it been just redoing her meeting, then she wouldn't have been able to leap multiple times back in time, because her wish would have been fulfilled at that point. But it wasn't, because her wish was to save Madoka. The time leap was the modus operandi.
>I'm not. That "one line" does not contradict the rest of the movie, at all.
Exactly. It does not supercede everything else that happens in the story.
>I gave direct evidence that supports my interpretation of the ending
You cherry-picked a single line out of context and ignored everything else that occurs in the story.
>That doesn't answer my question. The point is that there is only a need for an out-of-universe explanation if there is a contradiction, but there's only a contradiction if you ignore the in-universe explanation that is presented.
Just because you present an explanation doesn't mean the explanation is valid. If the explanation is not supported by anything in the story then the explanation is not valid. I could just as well say the CIA brainwashed her, because why not?
>The point is that Homura wears a mask.
Thanks, Sherlock. Keep on being pedantic and pretending to be stupid.
>It does not supercede everything else that happens in the story.
Nor am I claiming it does. Please explain why you think that line contradicts the rest of the story, and how you can justifiably ignore it despite it being presented as an important moment of realization.
Magical girls have some kind of special ability tied to their wish. Homura wished to travel back in time, and thus her ability is time travel.
So the logic seems to be that Homura wished to become strong enough to protect Madoka, and therefore in Rebellion she is suddenly able to manifest the ability to become a god, and thus "protect" Madoka. Ok, now why was she so utterly fucked when trying to destroy Walpurgisnach? Where were her awesome powers then? She nearly gave up and turned into a Witch before Madoka bailed her out. She wasn't even able to keep all other girls alive.
It's not that the line contradicts the rest of the story, it's that the rest of the story contradicts the line and its supposed meaning. When the line is weighed against everything else, it becomes an irrelevant oddity. Most likely Urobuchi just failed to convey his intentions correctly.
You, again, are taking the line out of context and just completely ignoring literally everything else. I in fact never see people cite anything except this one line (or, more broadly, the scene it belongs to) when trying to rationalize the ending. Nothing else in the movie is of any consequence. It's all riding on that one single line of dialogue.
Homura's wish has two parts
A. To redo her meeting with Madoka
and B. To be strong enough to protect her.
This isn't something brought up after the wish, she literally states this a part of the wish itself.
>No, and even if doing something like that was in her character the scene still does not convey that she improvised a plan on the spot.
See the thing with Rebellion is it doesn't spoonfeed the audience everything. You don't have to be that smart to understand what's going, you just have to pay attention and be able to connect dots. You should consider watching the films and actually try to connect the events this time. And no, the decision is completely in character. Like right from episode 1.
Moemura is dead and has been ever since the time Madoka asked for the mercy kill. Homura genuinely began to try harder in each timeline on her mission to save Madoka, now with the extra goal of not having her contract, while also doing it alone rather than relying on others. It was no mere going through the motions stick, there is no mask bullshit, Homura is who she is right now., no the girl she had been 10 years ago before she experienced like half the time her consciousness may have went through this far in her life.
Why does /a/ get so stupid and autistic when it comes to Madoka?
Way to not answer my question at all. You have presented exactly nothing to support your claim that the line is contradictory and therefore not valid for supporting the ending, so I can only assume you don't actually have any point whatsoever.
I'll give you one more chance. What is the contradiction?
Why would you think this, OP? Urobuchi wrote months and months ago that he was finishing an original script on his own. This is obviously it.
The Madoka project is still far off, hence the concept movie. Why would you think they wouldn't make sure that a giant part of their creative team was present for it?
>Homura's wish has two parts
Like I just said, this explanation is nonsensical.
>See the thing with Rebellion is it doesn't spoonfeed the audience everything.
It doesn't explain the audience anything because there is no explanation. There are only plot holes. You evidently don't understand anything about how fiction is constructed.
Imagine that, in real life, you've just escaped a bunker in the middle of the desert. The place is going to get bombed soon and you have to get away fast. But look, your car is parked outside. Why is it there? You don't know, and there doesn't seem to be any conceivable reason for why it's there. But the fact is that it's there, and there are perfectly logical reasons for its presence, even if you'll never learn what they are. That's just causality and how reality works.
Now imagine the same thing in a movie. No explanation, car is just there. Hero drives off and escapes the bombing. The audience is going to tell the writer to fuck right off and then kill himself. Fiction is held to higher standards than reality. Coincidence and inexplicable events are accepted only up to a point. There needs to be an internal logic to the story that the audience can decipher. Rebellion does not have that. Shit just happens. And then you write fanfiction to justify it as if this was real life and everything has an explanation.
Again: you are taking the line out of context. The flower field scene is part of a sequence of three related scenes. The story progression of the three scenes is that 1) Homura determines herself to be in a dream world and that she must escape because Madoka's sacrifice is being wasted, 2) Homura meets Madoka and reaffirms her decision to escape even if it means not meeting Madoka again, and 3) Homura risks everything by separating from her soul gem so she can find out the truth.
>Ok, now why was she so utterly fucked when trying to destroy Walpurgisnach?
Because not destroying Walmart wasn't a game over, but a new game+. Otherwise said, while her goal was to eliminate Walmart, she wasn't compelled to do it necessarily then.
>She nearly gave up and turned into a Witch before Madoka bailed her out
You can say Madoka bailed her out because she gave up, because in that particular scenario, it would have in fact been game over. But since the wish wasn't fulfilled, destiny gave her an out in the form of Madoka making her wish and prolonging the game. Which brings me to this point:
>she is suddenly able to manifest the ability to become a god, and thus "protect" Madoka
Again, this was the only out for Homura. If she had been taken to yuri valhalla, her wish would have remained unfulfilled. Therefore, she acted in the only moment she was able to interact with Madokami and took control of the situation.
In the end, I want to reiterate the fact that Homura can't be judged in terms of did nothing/everything wrong, because she only did what she was compelled by the nature of her wish to do.
>Like I just said, this explanation is nonsensical.
It's not. Also? No one ever said this is the only reason for why Homura was able to do what she did. Consider that just as Madoka amassed a huge amount magical power through all the karmic destiny that built up through all the timelines, Homura also built up a huge amount of magical power, but instead in the form of despair. This would explain why even as a "normal" witch Homura absurdly powerful. We've never seen anything close to a city sized labyrinth before. A single familiar is able to fight on par with a full fledged magical girl like Sayaka. Also consider that she wasn't even a fully developed Witch, as her Soul Gem hadn't broke. Seems very possible that the wish to become strong enough to protect Madoka was what allowed her to interfere with Madoka in the first place.
But there is internal logic for you to decipher, you just need two seconds to bother to find it.
>and B. To be strong enough to protect her.
Oh, how extremely convinient. She had this amazing power to do literally anything in order to protect Madoka, but it just happened to never activate during the series, even in the most dire moment when it was needed the most. And let's not forget that the series was not written with Rebellion in mind, or any other kind of sequel. Rebellion doesn't even make any reference to this supposed power; you really think they intended the audience to remember Homura saying "I want to become strong enough to protect Madoka" and then connect the dots? Delusional. This is fanfiction retconning.
Homura wished to redo their meeting. She went back in time. She got the ability to move through and control time as a result. That's all there is to it.
None of that explains how you can ignore this line. In context or out of context, it means the same thing. Just because three scenes are in a row doesn't mean they all have to have the exact same point, and certain lines can't have meaning that is only fully apparent later in the story. Furthermore, the line isn't even an isolated oddity, because it refers back to another scene in episode one - via an explicit visual flashback - which ties it into a theme that was present throughout the series. Madoka wants to sacrifice herself to save others, but Homura just wants her to remain Madoka. This has been the conflict ever since Madoka fought Walpurgis in timeline 1 even knowing she would die. Fighting over whether Madoka can be a goddess is the same thing on a larger scale.
You failed to answer the question yet again. What is the contradiction? You said there was a contradiction, so why are you not able to back up that claim? Is it possible that you were talking out of your ass when you said that? Why is this part of the scene not valid? Answer.
Because there are a bunch of trolls who are bent on ruining any and all madoka threads. It's not the first anime that it happens to, I dunno if it's always the same people and they move from ruining one anime's thread to another's or if each anime spawns its own autists.
The mechanics of Madoka's power are explicitly explained and logically accounted for in the series. Nothing is explained in Rebellion, and it's not because "hur hur not here to spoonfeed you." Rebellion is a sequel to the series by the same team, and contains a huge infodump where the villain explains everything in detail. So it's not like this is some ultra-subtle artfilm where you have to piece things together from minute details and allusions.
There simply is no explanation.
>We've never seen anything close to a city sized labyrinth before.
We've also not seen a witch forced to hatch inside her own mind, therefore we have nothing to compare it against.
>But there is internal logic for you to decipher, you just need two seconds to bother to find it.
You mean write fanfiction. Not the same thing I'm afraid.
None of your posts explain how you can ignore literally every single in the story except that line.
>Just because three scenes are in a row doesn't mean they all have to have the exact same point.
Their continuity is completely obvious to anyone who has even a modicum of understanding of storytelling and filmmaking.
>You failed to answer the question yet again.
I've repeatedly answered it. Stop bullshitting.
>None of your posts explain how you can ignore literally every single in the story except that line.
What parts of the story am I ignoring that would render that line invalid? You seem to be implying that there's some sort of contradiction created by the existence of that line, and yet you're not telling me what it is. Please explain your point. I have explained mine; I have put forth the parts of the story that I think justify the ending.
I don't know about best witch. But these faggots are best familiars
>What parts of the story am I ignoring that would render that line invalid?
>You seem to be implying that there's some sort of contradiction created by the existence of that line, and yet you're not telling me what it is.
I already told you that it's not that the line contradicts the rest of the story, it's that the rest of the story contradicts the line. I've explained this a few times now. You're just pretending to be stupid.
Also, it's not like art can be retroactively ruined, despite what some idiots insist. The original ending is still there, I don't think Urobichi will go all George Lucas and change it to fit it better to later material or something
>The mechanics of Madoka's power are explicitly explained and logically accounted for in the series.
What does this even mean. If Madoka gained her power that way who's to say Homura didn't gain it in a similar way. There is nothing to contradict this.
>piece things together from minute details and allusions.
These things aren't mutually exclusive. You can have them both in a film.
>We've also not seen a witch forced to hatch inside her own mind, therefore we have nothing to compare it against.
It wasn't "in her own mind" it was in the incubators containment field. There is nothing to indicate that a witch labyrinth being in a containment field would somehow make it larger, nor that it would give the Witch the ability to do large scale memory rewrites, nor that it would make the witch and her familiars extraordinarily powerful.
You realize that doesn't actually explain anything, right? I can just say the same thing. Here: everything in the story does not contradict that line. Wow, what an unassailable argument.
How about you stop fucking around and either make an actual argument (that is, one supported by facts and real logic) or admit that you're just pretending to be retarded.
>She had this amazing power to do literally anything in order to protect Madoka
No, she made a wish that gave her destiny a concrete destination instead of a myriad of possible endings, but the path wasn't fixed. The bottlenecks were episode 11 and Rebellion, when there were no multiple choices. Madoka made her wish because she was meant to, because that was what would keep the ball rolling. Instead of gaining an immense power, Homura got an infinity of get out of jail free cards. She didn't get an insta-win, she got a never lose.
Even the waifuposting threads were better than this garbage
>you will never beat the shit out of homuhater with a chair
>What does this even mean.
It means the mechanics of her power are explicitly explained and logically accounted for.
>There is nothing to contradict this.
There's also nothing to explain it, which is the actual issue here. It's not explained, it just happens, and that's it. All the viewer can do is start coming up with fanfictiony theories for it.
>These things aren't mutually exclusive. You can have them both in a film.
This is a series where things are meticulously explained and accounted for, yet when something totally bizarre and inexplicable happens that's also extremely important to the plot, your justification is that now it's some really subtle shit that the viewer is expected to piece together. How very convinient.
>It wasn't "in her own mind" it was in the incubators containment field.
I remember them saying that it specifically is in her mind (because of the field), but it's a meaningless distinction.
>There is nothing to indicate that a witch labyrinth being in a containment field would somehow make it larger, nor that it would give the Witch the ability to do large scale memory rewrites, nor that it would make the witch and her familiars extraordinarily powerful.
I have explained to you several times now that the three scenes are part of a whole, and that they tell the story of how Homura decides to abandon the dreamworld, part with Madoka and face reality. I have also demonstrated that there's no possible way Homura could have been planning to "liberate" Madoka.
Speaking of weird, anyone else is reminded of fractal art by the witches? Inu Curry's art doesn't use fractal design for the most part, but for some reason it triggers all the same feelings in me.
>I have explained to you several times now that the three scenes are part of a whole
That's nice, but that doesn't negate the point of the line that I have demonstrated. Why would they bother to include this part of the scene where Homura says "I shouldn't have let you do that" while remembering the time she told Madoka to stay Madoka if it didn't mean anything? The meaning of that seems pretty clear to me, and is not mutually exclusive with your idea of Homura deciding to abandon the dreamworld. How is this a contradiction? The realization Homura has is perfectly in line with the way she thought back in the series, so how can that be contradictory to anything? That's the core of her original motivation.
As long as it isn't literally spelt out for you, of course it's fanfiction. But sometimes you have to connect the dots yourself. Also, you were arguing that Madoka wasn't made with a sequel in mind. And you're right. However, Rebellion was made to not contradict the original. If there's 1000 possible, equally valid interpretations of the series, at the very least one of them will still apply with Rebellion attached.
The line is insignificant compared to everything else, and you are taking it out of context and ignoring everything else.
>Why would they bother to include this part of the scene
Because, again, the most likely explanation is that Urobuchi failed to convey his intentions properly. The line seems out of place and doesn't make sense. It's bad writing.
>How is this a contradiction?
The sequence of scenes is not about Homura wanting to "save" Madoka, it's about Homura wanting to escape the dream world and continuing to fight in Madoka's name. It is also, again, clearly established that Homura couldn't have possibly been planning to "save" Madoka. There's no evidence that she was thinking of anything of the sort.
>As long as it isn't literally spelt out for yo
I just addressed this. Madoka is not some 2deep4u arthouse avantgarde extravaganza. Things are clearly explained in the series, and it's clear what the plot is and why things happen the way they do. There's no confusion about what happens in the series. There's also nothing confusing about Rebellion until the plot twist occurs. THEN everything goes completely to shit and you're suddeny telling me that it's some complicated high level subtle storytelling and we have to put together the pieces ourselves. Bullshit.
>However, Rebellion was made to not contradict the original.
It does contradict the original.
>The line is insignificant compared to everything else
It's not. It ties into a major part of the series, as I've already explained and you subsequently totally ignored.
>the most likely explanation is that Urobuchi failed to convey his intentions properly
So your only explanation is "it doesn't make sense, so I will ignore it", despite there being an alternative explanation that WOULD make that line make sense. How convenient that everything which goes against your reading of the narrative is rendered invalid because the writers just, according to you, threw some completely random things down on paper and had no idea what they were even trying to do, and then animated those things along with imagery that explicitly backs up the point, but it still doesn't mean anything because you've decided it can't. This is you throwing a tantrum because some parts of the story don't fit with your idea of what the story is. It's incredibly childish.
>The sequence of scenes is not about Homura wanting to "save" Madoka, it's about Homura wanting to escape the dream world and continuing to fight in Madoka's name
Three scenes in a row do not have to be about one and only one thing. That's an incredibly simplistic view of narrative.
>It is also, again, clearly established that Homura couldn't have possibly been planning to "save" Madoka.
I don't disagree. That scene was not about Homura having planned to save Madoka. It was about Homura realizing that Madoka needed to be saved in the first place. That scene was her motivation for wanting to save Madoka. That is why I am putting it forth as justification for the ending. I thought this was obvious.
>It means the mechanics of her power are explicitly explained and logically accounted for.
I don't think you know what this means.
>There's also nothing to explain it, which is the actual issue here. It's not explained, it just happens, and that's it. All the viewer can do is start coming up with fanfictiony theories for it.
The explenation is that the same thing happened to Homura that happened to Madoka but in reverse. Calling it "fanfiction" doesn't make any less of a valid explanation. An explanation that also has evidence to support it.
>This is a series where things are meticulously explained and accounted for, yet when something totally bizarre and inexplicable happens that's also extremely important to the plot, your justification is that now it's some really subtle shit that the viewer is expected to piece together. How very convinient.
Rebellion had shit tons of symbolism and things going on in the background. You only call it bizarre and inexplicable because you are too lazy/too dumb to tell.
>I remember them saying that it specifically is in her mind (because of the field), but it's a meaningless distinction.
The fact that she was in the containment field in the first place is also meaningless as far her being way more powerful than any witch(barring maybe Walpurgis Nacht) we've ever seen in the series.
Throughout all of madoka magica, what piece of music stands above the rest?
You mean you've totally ignored everything else about the story except that line. Feel free to stop projecting any time.
>So your only explanation is "it doesn't make sense, so I will ignore it."
Yes. Because it doesn't make sense and doesn't appear to belong, and because other aspects of the story make it redundant. I can see no other explanation except Urobuchi failing to make himself understood.
>This is you throwing a tantrum because some parts of the story don't fit with your idea of what the story is. It's incredibly childish.
Nice projection once again.
>Three scenes in a row do not have to be about one and only one thing.
The progression is obvious, but since you don't have even an elementary grasp of storytelling and filmmaking you fail to see it.
>I don't disagree. That scene was not about Homura having planned to save Madoka.
No, I mean at no point in the story before the twist does Homura indicate that she is planning anything or has any awareness of what's going on. We are constantly in her perspective and even hear her thoughts. And I guess her idea of killing herself was merely a clever ruse to make the others not suspect her? Even though they wouldn't have had any reason whatsoever to suspect her of anything in the first place?
>I don't think you know what this means.
I don't think you've watched the series.
>The explenation is that the same thing happened to Homura that happened to Madoka but in reverse.
No, that's just a theory you came up with.
>Rebellion had shit tons of symbolism and things going on in the background.
Not the same thing, at all.
>You only call it bizarre and inexplicable because you are too lazy/too dumb to tell.
Holy fucking dick-shitting Christ this is getting ridiculous.
That was discussed to death already, not even going to read it. People who don't like Rebellion and see plotholes are simply idiots. If you care about their opinion, you are not much better.
>The fact that she was in the containment field in the first place is also meaningless as far her being way more powerful than any witch(barring maybe Walpurgis Nacht) we've ever seen in the series.
There's no precedent for the containment field, and as far as I remember the story never gets into any "power level" shit regarding witch labyrinths. Nor does there seem to be any reason why the story should concern itself with such a detail.
>People who don't like Rebellion and see plotholes are simply idiots.
It has humongous plot holes that nobody can explain without the use of fanfiction and SJW-tier mental gymnastics. Fuck you.
Where are tripfags to save the thread. I better read ACK than this.
>it doesn't make sense and doesn't appear to belong
It makes perfect sense if you accept the given explanation in the movie, that Homura was realizing, at that exact point, that she had made a mistake in allowing Madoka to shoulder the burden of being a goddess. That's what she actually says, out loud. There's nothing complicated about this, it shouldn't need to be explained. That this scene takes place in between other scenes which have a different point isn't nonsensical. That happens all the time. The story has more than one "point", and taken together they lead up to the ending we got. There's something wrong with you when you see a line which makes a different point than the lines surrounding it, and your only response is "NANI? This makes no sense, I can't process it! It goes in the trash".
>at no point in the story before the twist does Homura indicate that she is planning anything or has any awareness of what's going on
Correct. She was not planning anything, nor did she have any awareness of what was going on.
>I guess her idea of killing herself was merely a clever ruse to make the others not suspect her?
No. She tried to kill herself because at that time, that was her only option. To call out to Madoka to be saved would be to deliver her to the Incubators. So she did the only thing she could to protect Madoka, to the best of her knowledge. It was only later, when she was saved, did she have the opportunity to act in the seed of the idea that was planted in the flower field scene. I've already gone over all this.
You're missing the point. A partially developed Homulilly is portrayed as way more powerful than any other Witch we've seen thus far. Homura herself was never outstanding when it came to raw magical power. She had a broken ability, but she needed outside weapons in order to actually be effective. It wouldn't make sense for her to be so strong unless what I said was true and that witch form was the result of all that despair accumulating from all those different timelines.
>It makes perfect sense if you accept the given explanation in the movie, that Homura was realizing, at that exact point, that she had made a mistake in allowing Madoka to shoulder the burden of being a goddess.
In context the line makes no sense. Not that you would know anything about context.
>The story has more than one "point", and taken together they lead up to the ending we got.
Nothing leads to the ending. There's nothing connecting the ending and the rest of the movie.
>Correct. She was not planning anything, nor did she have any awareness of what was going on.
And yet at the exact moment the plot twist occurs it's obvious that she had planned it all along right from the start. Except she couldn't have. This is what we call a plot hole.
>It was only later, when she was saved, did she have the opportunity to act in the seed of the idea that was planted in the flower field scene. I've already gone over all this.
No, Homura did not instantaneously develop the idea that she is going to take Madoka's powers, pacify her, reconstruct the universe and then suppress and alter her memories, while also knowing that she is now somehow able to do such things. There is nothing to support this, and the scene suggests the opposite: that her actions were the result of long-term planning (but they weren't, because that's impossible).
What the fuck?
>Sure it is.
Crucial plot developments are not the same thing as obscure symbolism. Fuck off.
>What the fuck?
It should be obvious what I'm responding to, you can't be this dumb.
>Crucial plot developments are not the same thing as obscure symbolism. Fuck off.
Symbolism and other small details can lend insight into crucial plot developments if you bother to actually pay attention to them.
Let's summon him
The scene doesn't suggest anything of the sort, you're just autistic.
>It should be obvious what I'm responding to, you can't be this dumb.
You mean you can't be this dumb.
>Symbolism and other small details can lend insight into crucial plot developments if you bother to actually pay attention to them.
Holy. Fucking. Shit.
How many times do I have to explain this to you: Madoka is not a complicated experimental arthouse mindfuck. The plot is perfectly clear, things are explained and make sense. Rebellion also makes sense, right until the new ending. It doesn't suddenly turn into a complicated experimental arthouse mindfuck where even basic plot developments are obscured from the viewer. You are delusional. You are writing fanfiction. You are escaping into fantasies. You are rationalizing. The simple, objective truth is that Rebellion is a plot hole-ridden mess where things don't make any sense because they ripped out the original ending and replaced it with a completely new one that doesn't fit the preceding story events in any way. You fucking idiot.
No, you are.
>In context the line makes no sense
Why? This is the crucial point you've being saying over and over with no actual explanation. The line makes perfect sense. It means exactly what it says. Homura realizes, as a result of her conversation with Madoka, that she let Madoka take on a burden that is too harsh. What part of this makes no sense in context?
>yet at the exact moment the plot twist occurs it's obvious that she had planned it all along right from the start
No it's not. You want that to be the case because you want there to be a contradiction for the sake of your point. Yet there is no need for a contradiction if you accept what I'm telling you. Accept that Homura only came up with that idea over the course of the movie, not during it, and you will not need to invoke absurd out-of-universe explanations.
>No, Homura did not instantaneously develop the idea that she is going to take Madoka's powers, pacify her, reconstruct the universe and then suppress and alter her memories, while also knowing that she is now somehow able to do such things
Yes, she did. This is proven by the fact that she did it. We could argue for days over the mechanics of it, but that doesn't change what happened. You could argue that it was poorly done, and you might even be right. In fact I'd love for you to make that argument instead, because it would be one that makes sense. Arguing that the interpretation which creates a contradiction must be the correct one when there are non-contradictory interpretations possible is the picture of insanity. That's the opposite of reason.
Complicated? No. I wouldn't be calling you dumb for not being able to understand something complicated.
>I'm right because I say I'm right because I say I'm right because I say I'm right
>Urobuchi already confirmed Madoka will end with Homura's death at Madoka's hands
Why would he ruin the ending like that?
>This is the crucial point you've being saying over and over with no actual explanation.
Stop making shit up. I've explained over, over and over again.
>The line makes perfect sense. It means exactly what it says.
When you take it completely out of context like you're doing.
>No it's not.
Yes it is, unless you are autistic or have some other mental impairment. The presentation, her expression and voice and the dialogue make it very clear she's been planning it from the start.
>Accept that Homura only came up with that idea over the course of the movie, not during it
"Over the course of" and "during it" are the exact same thing.
>and you will not need to invoke absurd out-of-universe explanations.
Yeah, because plot holes are such an absurd thing that couldn't possibly happen in fiction. Fiction is just like real life and automatically governed by causality. Everything makes sense and it's not even possible for the writer to make mistakes or otherwise cause errors.
Jesus fucking Christ.
>Yes, she did. This is proven by the fact that she did it.
Once again, you dumb piece of shit: only her actions objectively occur. The explanations behind those actions do not exist. There is nothing to explain why and how Homura does those things, she simply does them and they simply occur for no discernible reasons. THIS IS A PLOT HOLE FOR FUCK'S SAKE.
You are the one claiming it's complicated.
They are such good friends.
>I already explained it, I promise
Okay you win, you have successfully avoided making a coherent argument, I'm not going to go around in circles with you anymore. I hope it was fun.
You repeatedly pretending I haven't explained something that I have in fact explained many times does not mean that I have failed to make a coherent argument. Go fuck yourself.
No, you are fucking dumb. I already explained this very clearly. It's total bullshit to try to justify the plot holes by saying Rebellion is some extremely subtle art movie where nothing is explained, when the reality is that the series had, right up until that moment, clearly explained itself and featured a coherent plot. Even Rebellion itself has a long infodump revealing everything everything in detail. Then suddenly even the most basic things about the plot are left unexplained, and it's ok because Rebellion is now suddenly an incomprehensible arthouse movie, by design!
No one is saying "extremely subtle" retard. Homura's actions make perfect sense with her character. She has always been about putting herself before Madoka and wanting to make sure Madoka doesn't have to make any sacrifices of her own. When Homura seperated her from the law of cycles she said she had been waiting for this moment("this moment" being a time when she can finally save Madoka from the fate that her wish had left for her), nothing implied that she had been planning it for a long period of time. She saw an opportunity and she seized it. So from a character motivation standpoint it is perfectly consistent. The only other issue is how exactly she managed to do it. While the the details aren't delved into(they don't have to be) there are many perfectly reasonable explanations as to how she accomplished this.
She gets the idea that it would have been better to stop Madoka from becoming a god during the flower field scene. She then gets the chance to do this during the twist scene.
There's nothing subtle about it and you're a fucking retard if you still don't understand this.
Her actions are not explained or logically explainable. They are not even in character.
>nothing implied that she had been planning it for a long period of time
Except for the whole fucking scene, but I guess you're too autistic to understand.
>She saw an opportunity and she seized it.
Using a previously unknown ability that she now possesses for unknown reasons and that she knew she had and knew how to use. And the scene does not even slightly hint that she has suddenly realized an opportunity, it clearly suggests she's been planning it. But an autist doesn't know how a character would behave in such a situation and convey the appropriate information to the audience.
You are taking it out of context. Fuck you.
So you're saying context doesn't matter. Thanks for proving you're a fucking moron who has no idea what he's talking about.
She spent all that time trying to prevent her from becoming a magical girl in order to prevent her from becoming a witch. She did not spend that time trying to prevent her from becoming a god.
The way she acts in that scene is 100% out of character. The way she acts later is 200% out of character.
Her decision to attack Madoka is not foreshadowed, it comes out of nowhere. There's no precedent.
NOTHING indicates that she has suddenly seen an opportunity and decided to seize it. Nothing of the sort is conveyed to the audience. The only thing the scene suggests is that she has been planning things long-term, which the movie establishes as being IMPOSSIBLE. This is a PLOT HOLE.
There's no reason why she would suddenly have the ability to take Madoka's powers or why she would know she has them.
Fucking Christ you people are retarded.
>Her actions are not explained or logically explainable. They are not even in character.
You do realize that declaring yourself right doesn't actually make your right, right?
>Except for the whole fucking scene, but I guess you're too autistic to understand.
>Using a previously unknown ability that she now possesses for unknown reasons
There are perfectly good reasons that have already been presented to you.
>and that she knew she had and knew how to use.
Um, if she had a power it seems likely that she would know she had it and knew how to use it. There's nothing weird about her knowing that she's strong enough to separate Madoka from the LoC. Pretty sure magical girls are capable of gauging their own strength.
>And the scene does not even slightly hint that she has suddenly realized an opportunity, it clearly suggests she's been planning it. But an autist doesn't know how a character would behave in such a situation and convey the appropriate information to the audience.
You keep saying this, but can't provide a shred of reasoning to back it up.
>She spent all that time trying to prevent her from becoming a magical girl in order to prevent her from becoming a witch. She did not spend that time trying to prevent her from becoming a god.
Both are bad in Homura's view. The movie makes this clear. Hell, even the series makes this clear. You're so fucking dumb.
>You do realize that declaring yourself right doesn't actually make your right, right?
I have fucking shown over and over again throughout this fucking thread that nothing about the ending makes sense, you fucking moron.
>There are perfectly good reasons that have already been presented to you.
Bullshit fanfiction reasons.
>You keep saying this, but can't provide a shred of reasoning to back it up.
You are autistic. Legitimately, medically autistic. You cannot gauge a character's expression and voice and how the scene is presented to figure out what is being conveyed.
Go fuck yourself retard.
>I have fucking shown over and over again throughout this fucking thread that nothing about the ending makes sense, you fucking moron.
Whatever you say kiddo.
>Bullshit fanfiction reasons.
Oh look, he said fanfiction again. Maybe if you say it enough it'll mean something.
What was being conveyed is that Homura was willing to save Madoka by any means necessary. She was happy that she finally had the opportunity to take the burden of Madoka''s wish away from Madoka. The sinister atmosphere was part of Homura's decision to portray herself as a villain for reasons that have already been explained. Anything else is just you forcing your own bullshit interpretations onto the film.
Not to be off topic, but, how long has thing been going on? Seems like all of /a/ has been copy pasted there. Even this thread is there.
http://sheekyforums (.) com/thread/136196192/anime/so-i-guess-this-means-that-urobuchi-won-t-be.html
>She did not spend that time trying to prevent her from becoming a god.
No. But you seem to have completely forgotten the part in the original series where she says, out loud, that becoming a being that isn't remembered and can't interact with anyone is worse than dying.
>You cannot gauge a character's expression and voice and how the scene is presented to figure out what is being conveyed.
She wasn't planning it all along. You're the one severely misinterpreting the it but you're claiming that it's all of us that are misinterpreting because clearly it's all of us that are the 'autistic' ones.
Only that last guy is me. Sorry Ivan, you is not of the accurate this time