>>136142616 >>136137604 Calling it a system implies it has any consistency in its mechanisms, which it clearly does not. It occasionally has an interesting application, but F/SN drove me crazy with how often rules that had been set earlier were completely ignored.
>>136143305 FT magic system is lol MAGIC PARTICLES that make you do random shit because fuck you its magic.
Also FT has something called curses that can do hax but for some reason isnt called magic, and the magic in FT is so fucked up that you can actually build technology using magic to remove it from an entire continent.
>>136143355 I can't recall any specifics at the moment, as it's been a while since I read the VN. What I can say is that I generally recall it being filled with: >I only have enough mana for x more projections/spells/hours of existing >Nevermind, I can still do whatever because I'm a persistent bugger
Among other things which, as stated before, I can't specifically recall as of now.
>>136143995 >"Nu!?" His attacking body is on the verge of death. >His fingers are broken, his limbs are slashed, and his breathing has stopped without him even realizing it. His speed is nothing, and his attack is mediocre.
>>136141508 >>136141515 nen is retarded, using any conditions to elevate your power(that can be anything) is plain retarded and the way the dmg is mitigated from non-nen users to nen users is not consistent
>>136145278 I agree, keep it vague. Nen is way too big for it's britches with all the specific kinds of applications and set up and stances and don't get me started on the LN trash with a bunch of rules just to fill out the pages
Simple stuff like fighting spirit or ki is the best
>>136145230 >Y'know those monster-killing weapons? Yeah, let's make them guns too. >Y'know those monster-killing weapons with guns attached? Lets throw random elements on them, too. >Y'know those monster-killing weapons with guns and elements attached ? The wielders are mutants.
>>136145139 Well, an inordinate amount of plebs answered the Nasuverse, which has ridiculous rules, doesn't make any sense, and seems to be written by a 15 years old at a time. Probably because it's popular, my waifu is in it, so it must mean the magic system is good, amirite?
People are stupid and have shit taste. Welcome to the world.
More like investure is a pretty cool magic system. Sanderson has multiple series that all take place in the same multiverse and all have linked magic systems. Breath and Surgebinding are the best imo but Allomancy is pretty good too.
>>136145945 D&D is vastly different in terms of what it aims to accomplish with a magic system though. It isn't supposed to have specific rules and the rules it does have aren't supposed to be understood by the players. Or really the DM either but he gets to dictate how it ends up working regardless of whether there's a real reason to it.
>>136137791 >>136137610 it's not even alchemy. ed just claps his hands and mumbles "muh equivalent exchange" and then magic happens. qwaser had better alchemy than full metal alchemist and that show was about sucking titty to power up.
>>136144504 >>136144228 In other words, the rules which were the basis for the resource-management stakes in F/SN in fact were just made up bullshit because magic studies are still incomplete and imperfect? Not only is that not consistent with the events of the VN, but that's also a lazy excuse to get out of being caught in inconsistent writing. And it would then imply that the stakes raised in the VN were fake all along, making those situations ridiculous. A magic system where there are no rules is not a system: it's a convenient construct for a writer to mess around with fun ideas and, if they are so inclined, pretend to actually be making a world with complexity.
>>136144005 >>136143894 And this makes it consistent how? This is just a generic fighting spirit idea. The only time this is okay is when Shirou is getting healed constantly by Avalon, or when someone going beyond their mana stores actually has some consequences for doing that which, to my recollection, never happens.
>>136144898 "existing, not fighting" is not true in the least. A more accurate statement would be somehow persisting after being disconnected from his master for a day, fighting Shirou with some projections AND his noble phantasm, being eviscerated by Gil, AND THEN existing, not fighting for another day.
Shirou having Avalon to fix him up is fine, and I have no quarrel with that explanation. Same with the Gil thing.
>>136146254 >actually has some consequences for doing that which, to my recollection, never happens >Shirou literally burns himself from overuse of his circuits over time So did you read the thing or not
>>136146254 Archer later was given a retcon I believe in that he was consuming wolves or some spirits (don't remember exactly) out in the Einzbern forest to sustain his mana supply with the combination of independent action to keep himself around.
>>136146139 So it's not a system and almost becomes free form with suggestions That's mostly because WotC couldn't balance a fucking scale if they tried
>>136146133 I'll give you that, but there are a great deal of vastly superior magic systems aside from DnD that, you know, deal with actual magic, so it really isn't a good example of a decent magic system
>>136146254 Were you aware that souls and mana are made of the same stuff in the Nasuverse? It's never really brought to your attention in the context of magi rather than Servants, but it's probable that whenever Shirou is projecting past his limits he's literally burning part of his soul as fuel.
As for Archer, there were magical beast souls to consume in the Einzbern forest.
>>136146254 Archer has independent action, it's stated several times they can exist for a few days without a master. It's also consistent with Gil who was the Archer class servant in the previous war.
Archer doesn't use UBW in the VN. He does project Durandal and K&B, but they don't need to be top tier because Shirou's are so dogshit.
When servants are injured, it doesn't kill them if they don't get hit in the heart or head, which are like the spiritual cores of them, but it still hurts and impedes their ability to fight. It's likely that because of Archer having so low mana when Gil shot him that he wasn't able to sense that Archer's existence was still there.
Regarding projection, it basically is that Shirou shoves needles into his brain whenever he uses it, and really badly fucks up all the nerves in his arms, eyes, coughs up blood, has his veins literally burn from magic use, goes blind, et cetera.
Magi wouldn't consider any of these to even be possible to do because they wouldn't even consider being so careless with their life, so it's considered "impossible", when it's very possible, just with fucking awful, agonizing and physically and mentally traumatizing on the user.
>>136137604 >make up shit incoherently as you go >write long winded explanations filled fancy words and numbers to make it seem like a rigid, well thought out system even though it's not >powerlevelfags eat it up because it's fuel for their autism and waifufags eat it up because it's an excuse for sex scenes
>>136146633 The stat sheets are basically straight from table top games you do realize. Nasu also does games like them in his spare time, and one campaign spawned a (relatively shit but ok ideas) anime, there's plenty of connection.
>>136146697 Well yeah it's not a good magic system because it isn't really a system. It can do literally anything with no real rules or restrictions outside of specific things like player/npc base spells.
>>136146742 did you even play the game or are you just a filthy secondary? shirou has 32 normal magic circuits. projecting fucked him up in heaven's feel because he couldn't use them all in that route and archer's arm was overloading him.
>>136137557 >consisted >in universe power level is based on power+experience+personal capability/rank >colt would be proud >the same spell type can be cast as beam, fist, hammer or whatever the fuck you want >you overdid it? enjoy -20%mana for the rest of your life >ban physical weapons because they can counter magic >team with healer never lost to team without healer >space reich >actual magic is commonly lost because muh dps and common mage can't even that properly
>>136145457 >no concrete rules, history, or complexity to the magic system. They literally explained everything there is to know about magic systems starting with how barriers are made, mana processing, spell types, differences in systems and spell ranks, types and use of support/combat devices and more, entire Vivid is one big history lesson with lolis and TSAB operate like Adeptus Mechanicus when it come to more advanced magic and artifacts, you can't ask for a better magic system without bullshit rules and paper rock scissor mechanic.
>>136143231 The problem is that you're watching a series in the Nasuverse about a character that doesn't fit the definitions the magi use, and your "rules narrators" are a teenage girl and a priest who outright lies and hates the protaginist (and all people). It's straight up said that if the Mages Association found out Shirou had a Reality Marble, they would capture him and study him because they don't know much.
I mean, think of it this way, Shirou has no less than THREE things fucking up his life, leading to a person who is an outlier: His family died in the grail-based destruction, he was raised by a mage who didn't follow the rules and didn't properly teach him, and he had Avalon implanted into him for something over a decade, which completely fucked up his body. That's BEFORE you look at conditional things like "he met a potential future self", which is something mages haven't studied but makes a massive difference.
When you read Fate/Zero or Tsukihime the rules make sense because you're following characters that mostly follow the rules, with a few small exceptions like the almost-one-of-a-kind Death Perception. Fate/Stay Night follows a character that is interesting because he is extremely rare in his world, and his limits are outside of the world's knowledge.
>>136137557 It's only good because it's based on a good but unoriginal, long established concept. Nothing special was done with it that could be credited to Arakawa, she didn't really make particularly creative use of it.
Nen is the best system because it has a good balance of creativity and logic. The mechanics are thoroughly explained but the powers are still interesting. It also gives Togashi a lot of freedom thanks to vows and restrictions.
>>136147044 It's not really important what the exact details are like why is a pentagram the best way to channel tectonic energy or whatever. The fact is that the concept is so simple and the rules aren't broken constantly or made up as you go along.
>>136143636 Fate is one of the only series where "I don't have enough mana to do this" is accurately shown. I mean, they say "don't do this or you'll turn into swords and die", and that's what happens in one route. He turns into swords from the inside out and dies, and it just so happens that the Holy Grail Vessel that can grant any wish makes him a new body.
There are a few times he does things that SHOULD kill normal people, but Shirou isn't exactly aware he has Avalon implanted into him, which heals him fast enough that he won't die even if he's killed sometimes.
>>136147183 >>136147351 What I don't like about the Heaven's Feel system is that it doesn't have detailed/specific rules for running a Holy Grail War with Servants/Masters. I also don't like the base system (CoC/WoD) but that's just me.
>>136146254 Archer not disappearing WOULD be a plothole, if it wasn't simple canon that mana can be harvested fairly easily. One of the main plot points is that Caster was harvesting massive amounts of mana so she could sustain herself without a mage master AND still control two servants under her all at once. Archer's existence is easy to explain with "he got mana from people/animals", I think it was made canon that he got mana from the Einzbern Forest after the "disappearance".
>>136147413 This is the first time I've thought about it in all the years I've been into the Nasuverse, but breast milk would totally have a bit of mana in it in the same way that semen or blood or other bodily fluids would.
>>136146476 Yes, I don't remember where, but at least some part of the VN has Shirou speaking in prose about how he's going to die early because of the mana usage. I'm thinking it was in a Heaven's Feel ending scene, but it might have been Rin warning Shirou that "killing yourself to help others is selfish if the people you help will miss you" by explaining this rule.
Basically, Shirou WAS burning his soul. Part of his character is his extreme lack of self-care, including the ability to simply not care that he's killing himself to help other people.
>>136147589 Thread didn't specify it had to be from anime. You also conveniently missed people discussing video games and tabletop games. Quit trying so hard to fit in kid you'll just embarrass yourself.
>>136147216 >just chemistry but it's not. qwaser had chemistry like when sasha used chromium to make a stainless weapon to resist the oxygen qwaser's rust, or when he heated iron past the curie point to fight the neodynium qwaser's magnets. the alchemy in full metal alchemist was just turning stuff into other stuff.
>>136147365 Avalon is supposed to be super special, it's from King Arthur's story where Avalon healed the King.
It doesn't hurt that Shirou IS special. He has no sense of self-worth, so he's fine with completely ruining his body and destroying himself for a power boost. Normal people wouldn't get much use of Avalon, but a Martyr like Shirou has a field day with it.
>>136147768 Yet you specifically only get upset at the one that happens to be about something /co/ related because you figured showing off that you don't like that one would get you the most /a/-approval-points.
You can keep collecting points if you really want but trust me after a couple years you'll stop caring. Unless you have autism or something.
>>136147451 Hatsus and stands are quite similar in my opinion, they can both take pretty much any form and come with strengths and limitations, but nen is a lot more thoroughly explained and the user has more agency over the mechanics. Nen users come up with their hatsus and decide how they work, stands mostly just exist and come ready made with stats.
>>136146652 Most magi are magical scientists, not fighters. Like hell they'll bother putting themselves in meaningless risk by overusing their magic unless their lives are at stake or they're working on their magnum opus.
>>136143636 You do realize that mana isn't just some arbitrary stat for humans and works more like regular stamina? Even if you're tired as fuck, you can still force yourself to move at the risk of damaging your muscles and what Shirou did is similar. There is a limit to it, but it's vague enough that a person can push himself beyond the norm in some circumstances with a risk.
>>136146254 There are rules there, but not everyone knows them and a lot of magi have their own biases. It's not inconsistency, it's just a case of the writer not using characters as author surrogates for world-building, but rather as their own characters with their own beliefs and knowledge (both of which can be flawed).
There are defined rules in the Nasuverse, but you won't get a proper grasp on them without studying extra materials.
>>136156816 One reason why this is true is because myths have to contain enough realism, consistency, complexity, etc. that they could be applied to the real world and people could conceivably believe in them, because people did believe in them. No fantasy writer comes close to attaining this.
>>136144107 It was a nice as concept, until he fucked it transforming it to generic magic where classes doesn't matter a shit and everybody can do crazy shit independly of their class, except Gon and other initial characters that sticked with the classic style while others made crazy shit like reincarnating because reasons or create islands with complete different battle system
>>136137557 Demonbane's magic system, if only because no other system reaches the fuck yeah level of taking heretical knowledge from otherwordly deities and beating their shit with it. Fucking Mad Arab.
>>136159720 Are you an idiot? Like 90% of elder god media is all about using their shit against them because it is the only thing you can do to maybe save yourself or make yourself too much of a hassle to fuck with.
>>136161871 I don't see many other examples going around of people beating the shit out of Outer Gods without relying on summoning other deities or directly borrowing their powers. Meawhile, Demonbane's system basically rips off their shit and then outpowers them because fuck you. Hell, Demonbane itself was originally a fake god based on other fake gods that ended up somehow beating the real ones.
>history Plenty of history. From ancient civilisations that did all the crazy shit(That may or may not exist) to good old classic medieval times to the modern age.
>Complexity It was mentioned that they needed to know the calculations for the spells, barriers, shields in the manga. Devices help with the calculation and targeting. Talent and compatibility is needed for stuff like true Ancient Belka style magic, which is why they use the Midchildan style instead, because it doesn't necessarily need talent. Mana capacity usually has an inverse proportional relationship with mana processing speed. Stuff like the Cartridge System require a powerful mage/knight that can handle the burst in power, and a powerful enough device so it doesn't actually destroy itself when it tries to load the cartridge. Blaster System boosts your output but puts a strain on your linker core, higher levels of Blaster can and will fuck your mana capacity.
Powerlevels is about how much mana you got, how well you can use the mana pool, how well you can fight, how experienced you are, and what spells you have. Mana capacity literally just means how big a spell you can use with your own mana, and having too large a mana pool is actually detrimental. Have too large a mana pool, you end up like Hayate, who, despite her nuclear weapon tier mana pool, is useless outside of nuking things, and even then she takes a while to set up her spells, allies need to evacuate the vicinity, and she STILL needs external support(Read: An entire fucking warship's worth of support crew) to aim the spell.
>>136162373 Not power wanking, just the idea that a system has the capacity to actually trump the original idea it was based out off. Master Therion going around summoning gods just so he could sacrifice them to summon bigger gods and then going "Nah, that was just me dicking around. I could have ended mankind whenever". Al breaking Nya's bullshit loop without ever getting the Shining Trapezohedron, and Alice bringing Alice in Wonderland to real life as monstrosities were all great.
>>136162338 >Have too large a mana pool, you end up like Hayate, who, despite her nuclear weapon tier mana pool, is useless outside of nuking things Mostly because nobody around can really train her to use that absurd capacity. In GoD, she is more versatile in what she can do because Reinforce decided to stick around to actually train her.
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