Who else thought that the first 6 episodes of Owarimonogatari were the best yet in the monogatari verse?
i literally cried at the end when she left the school and found out that she had taken care of her decomposing mother for two years
also hanekawa and senjougahara were so fucking awesome. crab's right hook and cat's verbal skills are unmatched
It's definitely one of my top 3 volume adaptations, with lost part 2 being my favorite overall episode. The ending could be better, but it was probably weighted down by the need to tie with the ougi and hanekawa plotlines.
>second half of Kabuki
>episode 13 of Bake
Be careful of what you're saying, anon.
When does Volume 2 come out? I need more Mathemagics in my life.
I thought it was shockingly mediocre and that the only people who could possibly like Sodachi just have an unstable damaged goods fetish and don't give a single shit about plot contribution.
Yeah, it was fucking great. The shift in tone for those episodes and huge levels of introspection relatively to an already introspective series were just fantastic. 10/10 took Monogatari from being a very good show to a great show, added a lot of depth.
Who gives a fuck about plot contribution? It's not like Monogatari was ever about that anyway.
What made Owari in general was that we're finally getting Araragis side of the story. He has been helping others develop without necessarily ever taking the messages on board himself. Now he's being confronted with situations where he has to grow as a person. Using Ougi as a medium for this works fantastically.
The Ougi and Araragi conversations are the cleverest thing this show has yet done and are a great vehicle for showcasing Araragis self doubt and the various problems he needs to deal with before he can become as well adjusted as the people he has helped.
You don't like the introspective stuff? What the fuck do you watch this show for? I mean seriously, it's literally nothing but character studies and character development with some tits thrown in here and there.
I don't measure the arcs based on plot contribution, especially in a character focused series, but based on the pacing, themes, quality of the dialogue and entertainment factor.
And since I'm not in a rush to see the story ending I don't mind if they introduce new plotlines as long as they are interesting enough.
How I or anyone feels about introspective writing isn't the issue. The issue at hand is that when someone's sole critique is "It's good because it's so introspective, it adds a lot of depth" you're doing the literary equivalent to saying "This tomato is soup is great, look how red it is. It really adds a lot of depth."
In short you have no clue what you're talking about and it's extremely painfully obvious based on what you said alone.
All I said was that I enjoyed the more introspective focus of Owari. That is one aspect of it that I enjoyed. Do you want me to write a fucking thesis whenever I post about what I enjoy about a foreign cartoon on 4chan?
Not that guy, but the introspective writing is pretty good. For example, the way that Sodachi's encounters with happy people only serve to worsen her situation indirectly, how she internalizes that into the idea that happiness is something she is too weak to experience, and how Araragi's personal journey from misery to happiness allows him to understand that she is wrong. These kinds of things aren't talked about that much in any kind of media and I liked the delivery.
>All I said was that I enjoyed the more introspective focus of Owari.
>it was fucking great
>The shift in tone for those episodes and huge levels of introspection relatively to an already introspective series were just fantastic
>10/10 took Monogatari from being a very good show to a great show
>added a lot of depth.
Clearly that's not "all" you said. You did not even give a single indication of personal preference, and instead made (or at least attempted) wide-arching declarations completely devoid of any content whatsoever.
That said, I'm sorry for being belligerently hostile. You might be at least making an effort at discussion as opposed to the usual shitposts that fill these threads, which is probably what got me to kneejerk in the first place. However, without any details there isn't really any discussion to take place. What was it being introspective about that's so good? What did it bring that the series was lacking prior? How was SHAFT's role in it overalluSpecifics are how you build thoughtful discussion.
That said if you really did just want to crap an opinion into the thread like every other fag then at least have the courtesy of not attempting to dress it up as anything else.
Maybe I'm missing something, but my biggest issue with Owari part 1 is that there didn't seem to be a major ideological conflict taking place. Sodachi's story was nice and Araragi's internal struggle resembled a conflict (though it mainly seems to be resolved with him being fed answers by Hanekawa/Ougi). Any monogatari that lacks that just seems very middling in my opinion.
Cut my post short: But it didn't seem to carry a major clash of themes like the Real vs Fake, Act vs Run, Honesty vs Loyalty, etc.
I mean there's maybe Misery vs Happiness technically, but Sodachi wasn't really developed enough to provide a convincing "side" to that battle, especially when she just up and got better because Araragi told her to.
You could say there was no conflict since Araragi isn't guilty for anything that happened to Sodachi, but Araragi wouldn't see that way and even a normal person would certainly regret his choices in the same situation, possibly enough to try to block from his mind. The hints were mostly to push Araragi to face reality, not to lead (well, Ougi did lead him to her own benefit occasionally) him to the answer.
In the same way, Sodachi's problem isn't something that Araragi could cure. He is not exactly her friend, nor a psychologist, and her problems are only in her mind and in her past, so any conclusion involving him solving her actual problems wouldn't make sense.
I get that, but Araragi being in denial isn't exactly new and exciting to me at this point. Yes he's way, way more in denial than has been previously acknowledged, so it's not like I'd say "you could skip the arc and not miss anything", but I think it's more of a development arc than anything.
That isn't to say Nisio isn't good at keeping people entertained through development arcs, I just can't say they're my reason for watching Monogatari.
I guess that would explain Hanekawa's presence, as both Araragi and Sodachi were deep in denial and someone needed to represent acceptance.
The problem is that Araragi himself never actually got over his issues, but he's the protagonist of a long-running series so that's inevitable.
>Maybe I'm missing something, but my biggest issue with Owari part 1 is that there didn't seem to be a major ideological conflict taking place
The only times this series had a major ideological conflict was during Bake with the whole you can only save yourself thing. You can say Nise if you want to considering the whole fake is better than the real thing, but that was mostly bullcrap.
>especially when she just up and got better because Araragi told her to
I think it's important to note that she hasn't gotten better at all. Araragi was finally able to communicate his perspective to her, but even in the latest LN she is still a wreck of a human being.
This wasn't a clash of ideologies the way that Real vs. Fake was, it was an exploration of what happiness means both to people who were not happy and became happy as well as people who have always been miserable and only seen happiness from a distance. The focus is on this mixing of ideas rather than any specific battle. There is an internal battle about Araragi accepting his own happiness in the face of the misery of others, but it's somewhat sidelined and we'll get back to it in Ougi Dark.
I don't get it, is Araragi happy or not?
Sodachi's arc make it sound like he was, but episode 12 contradicts that completely. Has monogatari always been this thematically inconsistent? This is the first time something bothers me this much in the franchise.
Episode 12 happens before Sodachi's arc. He's probably not very happy at the time because Snail just died yesterday. Generally speaking, though, he is in a happy time in his life already during Shinobu Mail. What gave you the impression that he's unhappy?
You need to rewatch Nise. Araragi hardly needed to think about anything in Bake because Oshino was there to give him guidance. Nise is about Araragi's struggle to find his own path once Oshino took off, and the Real vs Fake theme was central to the arc's entire plot. It's arguably the single most important arc in the entire series, excepting Kizu for being the one that started it (chronologically).
And neither did Sodachi, she just decided to stop indulging herself in her own misery and blaming everyone to excuse for not trying. Each just made a step towards the right direction, which was the point of the happiness is not a race and each one will teach each other in a new study group monologue.
>It's arguably the single most important arc in the entire series
How could that be true if that Fake vs Real theme doesn't carry into other arcs outside of Nise? When we get to Kaiki's arc we realize that he was just full of shit and at the end of the day he wanted to fix the chain of events he started and by doing so he saved himself and was capable of moving on. The whole fake vs real was never the theme in that arc.
Episode 12 is between Tsuki and Hana especially since Yotsugi was already living with Araragi. The last discussion about it here concluded that Araragi was lying during episode 12 since he had some kind of internal deal with Shinobu to always say they are miserable together even if he doesn't really feel that way.
Episode 12 made sense because Mail's conclusion only put Shinobu's past to rest. It didn't address the really weird relationship that her and Araragi have had since the beginning of the series, so him quoting the end of Kizu was very fitting.
Episode 6 not making Araragi happy makes sense because it's only about acceptance. Acceptance is the last stage of grief, not the first stage of happiness.
Nise's themes were on point but I think the delivery was off compared to later arcs. Everyone just kept saying "the fake is superior to the real thing" and only a couple of things demonstrated that this idea was actually true. In contrast, in SS, tons of small details tie into the central theme of a given arc.
That's the feeling I got at least.
I don't think Araragi has "some kind of internal deal with Shinobu" at all. I think he was just pretending his feelings about Shinobu haven't changed since Kizu. If Ougi is to be believed, then he's completely in love with her but there are a whole bunch of reasons he doesn't want to admit it.
No, you're right that the final monologue in ep 12 took place after Sodachi's arc. I think the explanation is
a) This takes place after Tsukimonogatari, several months later, where his life has been fucked up by Ougi for a while now (e.g., snake god, permanent vampirization)
b) Even when he is happy he still believes that his decision of staying with Shinobu is a deliberate attempt to be unhappy.
The first episode was dreadful but they aren't connected so I'll keep watching
>dude it's my shed lmao
I just checked the episode actually, the second half of the season was all Aragari telling Ougi the story so it kind of makes sense
You do realize that Fake and Real were just glorified metaphors for supernatural and natural right? They've remained core themes throughout the entire series, they just stopped referring to them as Fake and Real because Fakestory had ended and continuing to do so would be asinine.
I mean come on anon, the first episode has Araragi confessing to Hachikuji that he doesn't know what to do if his family gets mixed up with the supernatural. Then the last episode an onmyouji challenges him with the fact that a "fake" (his supernatural sister) has infiltrated and is affecting his family.
And, of course, the big one is how he interacts with Hitagi and Shinobu. It's not by coincidence that the first half of Nise has Hitagi tell him to stay away from Kaiki, and Shinobu tell him that he can rid himself of her and live a normal life. Neither of which he ends up doing in the end and satisfies both of them in the process.
We will have to wait at least a year for any
I don't buy the 'deal' thing, although I could see them both deliberately interpreting their situation as unhappy even if they don't really feel that way.
I think the real distinction is been "being happy" and "wanting to be happy." Araragi's happiness around the time of Sodachi's arc is not a result of him pursuing it, but because he has suicidal misadventures trying to save various girls and unintentionally forges connections with them. He was never deliberately trying to become happy and that hasn't changed throughout the whole series.
I'm not denying those facts but they all happened in Nise. The main theme of the series is "you can only save yourself" and it's present in almost every arc, unlike the fake vs real theme which only shines in Nise.
Posting happy math instead, after realizing her mother is dead.
That's pretty crazy if you think about it, anon.
I just want to bend Sodachi over the table and have my way with her.
Vulnerable moe is too erotic.
Saving yourself is probably the biggest overall theme because it applies to everyone to some extent, fake vs real is primarily central to Araragi/Hitagi/Shinobu/Ougi/Seishiro.
So you're actually correct that it's not the most prevalent theme in the series, but that's mainly by virtue of the story not always focusing on the main protagonist.
She isn't completely vulnerable though, she repeatedly attacked Araragi with stuff she found on her desk or table.
She probably won't accept more abuse without fight, or even accept help.
Oh hey. The whole, Seishirou is a badass specialist and super powerful vampire but loses while Araragi tries to be Shinobu's partner and wins can fit into the fake versus real theme.
Those stories were different enough that I can't compare them very well, I feel Shinobu Mail end was stronger but it might be because Sodachi Lost Part 2 set up my expectations too high for them to be able to meet.
And while Kanbaru was right in the end, she couldn't really know anything about their relationship at all and she herself is inexperienced anyway. It was just a guess based on what she learned from romance novels and which she went all out with and could easily have backfired.
For me the big two tip-ins are Seishiro's "I am the chosen one" and Ougi's "I am someone who punishes liars". I really don't get Ougi beyond that but with Seishiro it definitely comes up as a major theme.
Araragi initially fell out of his usual line of thinking when it came to Seishiro, he became jealous and hostile because he felt like he needed to prove himself superior to Seishiro, and that influenced Shinobu to not want to acknowledge him either.
It was from Kanbaru chiding Shinobu (and Araragi indirectly) then telling him to "just be yourself" that he regained his composure, followed his belief that "both the fake and the real are important", and was able to square off against the original on equal ground.
I think there's more going on than that, especially in regards to Kanbaru and Gaen's involvement (and Ougi's lack thereof), but I haven't really dug into Mail enough to get more than the gist of it.
The big problem, though, is that Mail didn't end with Araragi and Seishiro being equally valuable. Araragi decisively defeated him, and Shinobu decisively stated that Araragi is more important to her. It was an ending where the fake defeated the original. Also Gaen herself introduced the idea of all three of them getting along (and I think Kanbaru mentioned it too but I can't remember), so it's not like that possibility was just ignored by Nisio.
Araragi lets on that he's following Oshino's line of thinking, but he's always seemed to have a bias. In Nise he arguably only beat Kagenui, whereas Kaiki made a strategic retreat due to being outnumbered (3v1 whereas Kagenui was 2v2). In Tsuki he's fallen so far out of balance that he's about to become a vampire. And now in Mail he slays his 'original' predecessor (with a dirty trick no less).
People call Araragi the disciple of Oshino, but as the series goes on he's really starting to look more like Kaiki.
Even better, I like it when they resist initially.
I had a similar experience with Shinobu Mail. The only thing I was hoping for was closure, better or worse. Didn't even get that. Fucking Nisio.
I mean that was nice and all but it still felt like 5 minutes of rubbing the fact he didn't address the elephant in the room in my face.
But then, I guess I should be resenting Araragi because Araragi is the one who lied in Kabuki when he said an upcoming novel would be about the nature of their relationship.
I don't have any reaction images for mildly amused, so take this approximation.
I nearly quit the series because of Nise, but after watching the first 6 episodes of Owari. I just love how it all unfolds.
Was it better than Second Season though? That's debatable.
Why are damaged girls so attractive?
It's actually likely to be about Snake because
in Orokamonogatari, she hasn't been going to school and is instead working full-time on her manga. Yotsugi asks for her help with something, so Nadeko still has ties to the world of kaii.
"Off-Season" is getting two more books, Nademonogatari & Musubimonogatari.
I want to warm her cold damaged heart with love and care.
SHAFT fucked the pacing hard in the anime. They basically had to strip everything just to fit the story continuity into 3 episodes, which in term fucks with the emotional impact of the actual story scenes.
I really can't blame him for having that opinion. At this point I care more about LN translations than anime releases.
I want cum all over Gaen.
Also, the Sodachi arc was a nice arc. Ougi doing her thing was fantastic.
More Sodachi when?
Does anyone know how much lewd is gonna be in the first kizu movie?
My father wants to see it with me, and while im sure he wont care about anything plot related i just dont want to have to explain any panty shots or lewd shinobu.
If the first movie is gonna have a lot of stuff like that i'll just not take him.