What were your favorite lives so far?
I liked Vann the most as a character and Lafalle's life (and relationship with Lapis) the best.
>yfw one of the twins is named Rei
Yes. She also was in Mizukami Satoshi Tanpenshuu
sorry to tell you that 2 of these girls will die or Fuuta will get a harem ending which seems unlikely.
Rereading the manga Nono is a very serious competitor.
The numbers are extremely interesting - do they imply that Koko lived her lives in a different order than Fuuta?
Or do they just keep changing language?
Probably the latter, actually.
Rune is Fortuna's daughter. She clearly sees them as separate people by now. Still she's tied to his body, so she either needs to die, or he gets a harem end.
Harem end doesn't always mean sexual, just 2 or more girls living out the reminder of their days with a single guy.
Probably because Fortuna interfered. The only change that has happened is Fortuna hijacking the body otherwise Fuuta would have been the one doing this fight and then getting the call. Fortuna turned this into an alternate world line from the original. Watch we'll find out it's because he skipped school or something.
I think she will be reborn as one of the twins. Fate/rune die during the battle because of the destruction of the rings, and the twins are you know who.
Fortuna's understanding of the universe is wrong. It's not one river, it's likely many and his attempt to diverge his river to create his own lake just ended up diverging it into another river.
Meaning that they are in another possibility or very possibly always where.
I really hope not. Ending that soon would cut Fortuna short as a character, making it almost as shitty as Samidare's ending.
But then, considering how shitty Samidare's ending (and main antagonist) was I wouldn't be terribly surprised.
>main antagonist is just an overpowered manchild with no interesting or redeeming qualities
>Samidare's "betrayal" that was built of since the very first fucking chapter is basically addressed like an afterthought
>golems were ultimately never anything more than mindless drones
>in summary, there was ultimately no meaningful conflict whatsoever in the entire manga, aside from a struggle to survive
Samidare's ending was god-awful. The author delivering the promised OTP couldn't make up for that. Spirit Circle ending in 3 or less chapters would most likely not be sufficient to address why so much time was spent showing that Koko is a shitty person and that Fortuna's primarily just misunderstood. Also Fuuta is still a pretty massive hypocrite.
Something about the idea of the author explaining that multiple instances of the same soul can exist in the same chapter that the two not-spirits are reincarnated really rubs me the wrong way.
Spirit circle is his best work, biscuit hammer went to shit near the end and I dropped Sengoku Youko out of boredom ages ago, in fact it's been so long I've forgotten what the main conflict was supposed to be, what every character besides human guy looked like and what the fucking story was even about.
Fuuta's willingly thrown himself into the entire situation and has spent pretty much the entire manga brooding over his past lives. It's pretty damn late for him to suddenly turn into yet another "I just want a normal life" protagonist.
I thoroughly enjoyed BH's happy hugbox ending because I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff. Although, it might have been a lot more meaningful and soul-crushing if Mizukami followed through with Sami destroying the Earth, depending on how he handled the core themes in the later chapters and the lead-up to it.
Thus far, though, Spirit Circle is a lot more solid in terms of theme and world-building. I think Mizukami had trouble juggling all the characters in BH and didn't want them all to die at the end. In Spirit Circle, all of the characters in the past lives have to die by necessity, so there's less vital choice to be made here. But given the alternate timeline shenanigans being pulled off right now, it's really anyone's game for the finale.
Animus was barely important in Biscuit Hammer. The entire point was to see Yuuhi's growth, which we saw and which culminated in his fights at the end. Not sure why anyone would expect more from Animus when the plot was basically just about the characters and their lives and how every so often they had to fight a golem.
Everyone knows the true final fight was between crow and lizard, everything else was a warmup.
which reincarnation was do you identified most with /a/? I vote the Greek guy
>never succeeded in making the thing I wanted to
>alienated from my family
>ultimately going to die without purpose
I was sure Mizukami wouldn't out-do BH, but this may even be better.
I love the themes in his works and the quirky but serious way he tackles them, and the characters are the best part, which isn't common.
I think it'll be his piromaniac of a brother and Rei who re-incarnate. I somehow feel there's more in store for Rune.
That's because Koko is the one causing problems. Fortuna acts on a purely rational basis, with the sole purpose of preserving the well-being of himself and his friends. Every action he's made is with that clear purpose, without Koko's vendetta against him he no longer has any reason to become god.
Koko on the other hand is trying to kill him for the sake of revenge, and based on some poorly-defined sense of justice. She laments that Fortuna "became an enemy of mankind" but she is the one who put him in that position by foiling his attempt to lay low until the heat cooled off. The more hostile her actions the more Fortuna's actions escalate as he tries to find a way to repair the damage that she's done to their relationship.
Even in Fuuta's case. Him and Fortuna are directly at odds because Fortuna basically hijacked his body and left him to die, but the reason Fortuna did that in the first place was because he expects Koko to murder them both otherwise. Not just the typical in-universe death that will reincarnate them either, but an actual destruction of their soul that will permanently erase them from the universe, arguably a greater misdeed than any of the deaths that Fortuna has ever personally caused.
And don't even get me started on their reincarnations. Koko is a gigantic shit and much more of an antagonist to the series (as shown by Fortuna reincarnating into the goddamn protagonist) than Fortuna ever was.
Fortuna has done nothing wrong so far. Even Koko can't provide an actual reason why he is, and Fuuta hasn't done more than be a passive aggressive toward him. It'd be a really shitty conclusion if Fortuna just turns plain evil because it would directly contradict the entire manga's development to the contrary.
Oh, and the entire "Stupidity is happiness/morally correct" thing they've been hinting at in recent chapters is quite possibly one of the worst messages I've ever read in a work of fiction.
>Fortuna has done nothing wrong so far.
I think that it's clear that Fortuna's wrong. He does nit respect human life in the slightest, perhaps because he believes it's not really a murder since on a large scale it's a tiny number of people that will eventually reincarnate. He's also.a very damaged person and a very lonely one, thus he thinks his way of "correcting" things is a valid one.
Koko on the other hand is mostly driven by a sense of guilt, not justice. She believes it's her fault he escaped at that port city and became what he is. She's not a broken person the way he is and values life way more. Though multiple lives made her desperate.
I think that it's really all Rei's fault. It could all probablye prevented had she offered Fortuna more guidance, instead of banishing him which fucked him up the most.
Oh and also, only bad thing Koko did so far was always exacerbating Fortuana's misdeeds, because by trying to stop him from doing a bad thing she made him more and more extreme. So really her only fault is failure to stop him time upon time. Though you could argue that she's innocent since there's no way she could stop him. It took direct intrusion by the planet's guardian for her to overpower him.
>I think that it's clear that Fortuna's wrong.
There is no objective standpoint where he can be considered such. Even the fucking cafeteria lady who lived in the city he supposedly massacred clearly favored him over the one trying to kill him.
>He does nit respect human life in the slightest
Fortuna has very clearly defined priorities, every time he's killed was with a clear purpose in mind. The only possible exception is the second town he attacked with skeletons, but he was directly driven to that point by Koko's attempt on his own life.
>He's also.a very damaged person and a very lonely one, thus he thinks his way of "correcting" things is a valid one.
Whose to say that it isn't? Fortuna is nothing more than a scientist. If his actions follow the same pattern as his intellectual reincarnations then the perceived wrongness in his actions is nothing more than his discovery threatening the established social order.
If it weren't for Fortuna, humanity would still be a tribal society sacrificing it's own peoples with elders that know it's effectively a scam. If that would have still ended without Fortuna, then you're effectively admitting that it's only a matter of time before someone else executes his plan successfully, and that it's the natural conclusion for humanity.
>Koko on the other hand is mostly driven by a sense of guilt, not justice
That's not what she claims. That would mean that she's not only poorly defined in her cause, but also downright dishonest about it.
>She believes it's her fault he ... became what he is.
Well she'd be right. What she's wrong about is thinking that trying to kill him has made the situation better for anyone whatsoever.
>I think that it's really all Rei's fault. It could all probablye prevented had she offered Fortuna more guidance, instead of banishing him which fucked him up the most.
She probably realized she was wrong, which is why she wanted to see him on her deathbed in the first place.
Killing 20.000 people in order to heal your friend is in no universe normal, okay, or anything other than downright sociophatic.
Even if his purpose is scientific advancent on behalf of himanity, which it is not, killing literally dozens of thousands of people is not justified.
About humanity being tribal, we don't know if he improved anything. Fortuna is his last, 7th life in the timeline. It comes after the black hole bomb incident and near human extinction. He personaly stopped sacrifice rituals in a small Aztec village/country which in no way benefitted the humanity as a whole.
So really all his plan did was kill a bunch of people and fail to kill even more.
Koko was morally inferior to Fortuna the moment she wasn't able to provide a valid moral reason for opposing Fortuna and then proceeded to do so anyway. Her own hysterical, irresponsible actions were what escalated the conflict to a universal scale, and caused the deaths of the people in the cities after the first.
This is further reflected in their reincarnations, where Koko rarely takes on the role of a corrupt social order. As a character she is directly opposed to the idea of progress in nearly every sense. She fell in love with Fuuta because he was too simpleminded to create the progress she fears so much, and yet would use that same window of mental, physical, and emotional (due to the news of his mother and brother dying) weakness to kill him.
She is almost completely and utterly morally reprehensible, and it would be a failure of the author if she isn't forced to face this.
First of all his goal is not progress. Except maybe his own selfish one.
Second, she is not opposed to the idea of progress. She's opposed to the idea of killing so many(or any at all) people. You can see this as well in her life as that ninja for example. And she accepts progress in the form of Carol, a bloody superhuman more ingenious than Fortuna. She comew to even love her quite quickly.
You're claiming that Fortuna has a just cause for killing so many people, and that's simply not the case.
>So really all his plan did was kill a bunch of people and fail to kill even more.
You know without love it can´t be seen.
You´re wrong.Even the definition of killing is vague in this serie.
Is turning someone into a living skeleton killing him?
>Killing 20.000 people in order to heal your friend is in no universe normal, okay, or anything other than downright sociophatic.
How many universes do you personally know? Any where reincarnation has been scientifically proven to exist? Even on this planet, do you realize how fucking often human beings do the same thing for equal or lesser reasons? If it were feasibly possible to do so, many civilizations would gladly destroy one 20,000 times their size for the sake of their peoples' well-being. Nuclear arms are restricted for this exact reason.
>Even if his purpose is scientific advancent on behalf of himanity, which it is not, killing literally dozens of thousands of people is not justified.
He uses scientific advancement as a means of establishing his own well-being, just like all scientific establishment in human history. Personal success is generally a better motivator than "the good of humanity", but it still drives progress and creates good for humanity regardless.
>About humanity being tribal, we don't know if he improved anything. Fortuna is his last, 7th life in the timeline. It comes after the black hole bomb incident and near human extinction. He personaly stopped sacrifice rituals in a small Aztec village/country which in no way benefitted the humanity as a whole.
So really all his plan did was kill a bunch of people and fail to kill even more.
And you've completely missed my point for bringing it up in the first place.
I just binged the series and liked jt pretty much liked it so I feel like discussing it, even this way. Also keeping the thread alive.
I'm done though, this is so blatantly wrong I can't continue.>>135992236
>First of all his goal is not progress. Except maybe his own selfish one.
Human society is driven by selfish progress. You do realize that science isn't charity work, right?
And Carol is the worst fucking example for you to bring up. Lapis spent Carol's entire life telling her to not use her superhuman abilities or genius, to hide her talents, and to be a "normal" person. Guess what? Carol told her to fuck off, ultimately sided with Lafalle on that matter, and decided to pursue her talents and interests.
>She's opposed to the idea of killing so many(or any at all) people
Except Fuuta, the most innocent. Had she not threatened him with the spirit circle, he would go about his life happily.
Why didn't Koko just say "I don't think saving him was worth killing 20,000 people"?
Literally this entire fiasco could have been avoided if she simply directly opposed Fortuna's opinion instead of going full retard and setting the town against him.
Why do you keep acting like killing some arbitrary number of people is, on its own, inherent proof of evil? Are you naive enough to believe that all human lives are equal? That a serial child rapist's life is equal in value to the savior of mankind?
If you don't think so, then how do you think that whose life is worth more gets to be decided? Would Fortuna, as someone so intellectually advanced that he is even capable of singlehandedly wiping out 20,000 people in the first place, not be the most qualified person to choose that it's worthwhile to do so?
Whose to say that those cities wouldn't have just caused their own direction before long anyway, with their rampant consumption and destruction of environmental spiritual materials as pointed out by Rei?
I'm referring to the image in >>135990214
Fortuna directly asked Koko's opinion on his actions, but she didn't take that opportunity to tell him that she thinks what he did was wrong.
She had a chance to set him on the right path on that moment, but she let it pass. She then proceeds to blame him for everything that happened, when she herself couldn't speak out against her actions. Koko is a hypocrite.
Koko couldn't answer was because deep down she actually did agree with him. It would explain why she feels so abnormally guilty on the matter. It's not normal for a person to get that personally invested in the lives of complete strangers, and in their confrontation at the skeleton city she clearly felt more affected by "what Fortuna had become" than "the crimes Fortuna committed".
Koko is so personally driven to kill Fortuna because she believes he represents evil that exists within her own heart.
>blowed up the whole planet in an attempt to free souls, misguided good person
>tries to destroy the universe and become god, just a sociopath
There's one huge difference.
>Lafalle kills millions of people on a hypothesis that turns out to be false
>Fuuta still backs him up
>Fortuna kills a few thousand, successfully creates proof-of-concept for immortality
>Fuuta hates his guts
God damn it Fuuta.
From Laffale's perspective he was doing the roght thing for others. Even though the author noted that it's wrong to live for others(strangers) in the last chapter, that was not an act of selfishness or malice.
What the fuck read the fucking manga.
He collaborated with the faction in the group that was trying to prevent the disaster but failed.
He did everything for himself. Even saving East was recompensating for his failure in youth and fighting his inner demons.
It's not one guy with lots of free time. It's a genius with the theories he invented himself. It took humanity more than 10k years to come up with electricity, imagine how long it would take to come up with a theory to be god. If it wasn't for Fortuna, it most likely would never have happened.
>He did everything for himself. Even saving East was recompensating for his failure in youth and fighting his inner demons.
Not wanting to re-experience the same pain he did when he lost one of the only people close to him is "his inner demons"?
>He did everything for himself.
There's no basis to this whatsoever. His passion for science took a back seat to his life with East, Koko, and Rune, and he personally asks them several times about how they feel about his actions and is clearly troubled by it.
Technological advancement grows at an exponential rate, and Fortuna was born in an era that is unimaginably advanced compared to our own. Fortuna isn't the special snowflake you think he is. There's no indication that he's not just another period visionary like Fone.
Lafalle didn't actually cooperate with them. He just knew they existed because of his brother and didn't report it to the higher-ups.
His own plans had nothing to do with the terrorist group and was just a collaboration with the other tower administrators.
>unimaginably advanced compared to our own
They still use fucking swords to kill each other, the only difference is they're trying ti use spiritual power instead of electricity. He's clearly a genius.
>successfully creates proof-of-concept for immortality
But he doesn't? It's shown time and time again that Fortuna's ideas are not perfect. Whenever it comes to his grand schemes, there is something he misunderstands or does not consider (such as Animus' interference, the ramifications of the existence of parallel worlds). There is no reason to believe his plan would actually work.
>They still use fucking swords to kill each other
What? Fortuna's civilization was peaceful as fuck until he happened.
Well, aside from the whole killing the planet and probably causing the disease that killed Rei and East thing, anyway.
Peaceful yes, but guards were equipped with swords/spears/shields etc.
Exactly, and Laffale was saving souls of those unable to die or live. Even God came down and told him to do it, or rather not to pervert the concept of death, as humanity needs it.
My point is the guy that saved Hitler's life very clearly felt responsible for his crimes, and didn't just say "NOT MY PROBLEM LOL I DIDN'T KNOW"
By the way, crimes of negligence and being charged damages for accidents is also completely standard in the real world too. You are considered fully responsible for your fuckups.
A peaceful civilization has little to no need for advanced weaponry. Nobody calls europeans uncivilized just because their cops carry truncheons instead of firearms.
And besides, the spirit technology shit is clearly far outside anything human society is capable of anyway, making your point completely moot. Saying Fortuna is a one-of-a-kind prodigy is nothing but empty conjecture and directly contradicts the themes developed through the story.
An intellectual society would have stuff similar to schools, colleges and other institutions to nurture talents like his.
In their entire city they had one expert on it and he became her apprentice, like a blacksmiths.
He was a doctor who performed an operation on an injured kid thus saving his life.
Then later started doubting it as it horribly backfired, though it wasn't his fault in any way that it backfired.
While Hitler was wrong and believed he was right. So a polar opposite of my example.
>capable of interacting with living beings or the physical plane
East can't actually interact with the physical plan and anyone other than two specific people. He's no more alive than a shared hallucination.
That depends entirely on the demand for educated individuals and technological advancement. If they were living in what they believed to be a low- or post-scarcity society then further development isn't going to be high in demand. Excess resources would also explain there being low enough competition to arbitrary ban entire branches of study.
And really, you're completely avoiding the point. Any civilization where it's even physically possible for a child to create a being with human-level intelligence from a fucking rock is not even remotely comparable to our own.
What Fortuna did at the time, while impressive for a child, was in no way something new and revolutionary. It's heavily implied that people have done it before, hence why it became a taboo.
Not really, he chose the child because the child was supposed to be operated next. Then the hospital director came and told him to operate the rich guy because he was more important to the hospital, which he refused because "his life is not worth more because of money" or something along these lines.
I'm not 100% that the rich guy died, but I honestly don't remember.
More importantly, WHY would someone create one? To research such a thing requires a team of experts, not just a lunatic that wants to kill everyone. Why would a team of experts research something that the only purpose is to end all life on earth?
I'm pretty sure he did die, because Tenma got badly punished, was left by the director's cunt daughter, and then he said the "if only that bastard were dead" line by Johan's bedside.
But really, either way, it was an arbitrary judgement call by Tenma to operate on the child against orders. A capitalist would probably argue that the rich man being able to pay enough to skip in line was in fact an objective indicator of his value to society, and that his well-being would benefit future patients through the hospital. The fact that the child Tenma arbitrarily chose to prioritize turned out to be the anti-christ was pretty much just poetic justice.
tl;dr Tenma was a dumbass.
I just read what happened during first 2 episodes to remind myself.
In ep1 he listened to the director and saved some opera singer instead of a Turk who later died. Due to guilt he refused to do the same later when the Mayor arrived after Johan and thus saved Johan while the Mayor died.
It's a moral argument if he was right or not, but a doctor should not make such harsh decisions and simply do his job, and that is operate the first critically injured patient without giving any advantage due to social status.
>and that is operate the first critically injured patient without giving any advantage due to social status.
A doctor's job is the same as anyone else's job: To do what your employer fucking says.
If Tenma wanted to play by his own rules then he should have found an employer that would allow him to do so or self-employed.
It is very different. You can size a nuke, but not a black whole. Once it i active, it will just destroy everything, including the one who activated it. So it is more like suicide bombing. It is hard to imagine some organization with the expertise to develop such a thing actually wanting to do so.
The only difference between 1st degree murder and manslaughter is the assessed level of future threat that the defendant presents to society should they remain free. The crime is functionally identical, setting aside things like cruelty of the methods used.
Plenty of cases where someone will likely never kill again, but it's still 1st or 2nd degree murder. Plenty of people also don't go to jail for accidental deaths and continue to cause accidents.
>You can size a nuke, but not a black whole
>can't be sized
Because without an already existing enormous mass the black hole will be unstable and vanish in a matter of nanosecods. It's physically impossible to create an actually dangerous black hole on Earth.
Well there you go, researching on how to build a black hole bomb seems safe small scale but if they made one, I assume we already got some way to get the fuck out of the way first hopefully and the scientist probably got dibs on it.
If there is another place humanity can go, black hole as a weapon isnt that bad.
You should consider that "small scale" in the cosmic context means. A black hole with the mass of Earth would be the size of a marble and also vanish within seconds. Unless we got to BLAME! levels of bullshit tech and could compress fucking stars or find some way to create a singularity that sucks in mass from another dimension, a black hole weapon is impossible.
Same reason most bombs are developed: They were originally a constructive technology that was weaponized.
Sort of like how Fortuna created the spriit circle to save East's life, and Koko decided to use it as the first weapon in history capable of entirely obliterating a soul.
I have a really bad feeling about this "multiple instances of the same soul can exist" shit. On one hand, it makes a good end with Fortuna/Fuuta/Koko/Koko all alive feasible. On the other hand, it also makes all sorts of really wonky bullshit like Rei and Koko being the same person possible.
Koko being Rei was hinted a lot already and this basically confirms it, if anything.
>Koko was originally named Rei
>living with Koko is how Fortuna got over Rei's death
>the moment Koko bails on him he falls off the wagon again
>Vann has a good life raising Rei
>Rei is the goddess of war, and Koko is always trying to kill him