The man who makes no mistakes

>>135882464
Cause he died

>>135882464

Leaving Rin an orphan was a mistake

>>135882464
Not wearing a condom was a mistake.

that suit is a mistake

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>>135882464
He is crazy. In a bad way.

>>135882464
Kirei did nothing wrong.

Is Fate/zero the game of throne of anime?

>>135882464
He made the mistake of trusting Kirei and handing him the dagger to begin with.

Being a bore for Gilgamesh is a grave mistake.

How do you think he'd feel about Shirou fucking his daughters?

>>135883851
The same way he would if Shirou didn't.
Dead as fuck.

>>135883851
He'd fucking hate it. Not because they're his daughters, butt because Shirou is a shit mage.

>>135884209
Knowing Tokiomi he'd probably give his daughters to Ganondorf, literally evil incarnate, because he's a pretty strong magic user.

>>135882464
Except being hated by Gilgamesh and trusting Kirei.
Even Kariya struggling with his Servant is better to look at.

>>135884209
Would he? Shirou has a RM, those are actually closer to true magic.
Besides, he is pretty good at projection and reinforcement.

>>135887120
But Shirou isn't a "proper" mage. Tokiomi would want to marry off his daughters to some shithead who only cares about the Root.

>>135882737
Yes

>>135886093

Being good at tracing and reinforcement is the magical equivalent of being good at walking and breathing.

Shirou's only redeeming factor is that his RM and by extension tracing compensates for his overspecialization.

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>>135882464
Why is he so perfect?

>>135887528

But he let her be adopted into a family he admits could care less about the Root, and that interview from that French con had Urobuchi revealing he knew all about the stuff Sakura would go through and bought that it would make her stronger as a magus. From a guy whose bloodline was damn near dead.

The best part? He thought that if Zouken was outed as a heretic, that a four year old girl with no magecraft training could stop him.

You don't get more naive in parenting than this guy.

>>135882464
>People will hate on Tokiomi for giving Sakura up for rape and love Kariya for being an edgy cuck but then shit on Sakura for being a slut who loves being raped
I don't understand the logic behind this.

>>135887676
>Being good at tracing and reinforcement is the magical equivalent of being good at walking and breathing.

well that's two things Shirou can do better than Tokiomi at this point, amirite?

>>135887676
Not really, though. Take Rin for example, she's widely accepted to be a pretty good magus, but she's still surprised by how good he is.
It's stated that projection is mostly used to substitute for sacrificial items in magic rites, due to the fact they only last seconds or minutes at most. Some of the shit Shirou keeps in the shed have been there for hours, if not more. It's an uncommon specialization, but Rin herself agrees that what he's doing is pretty impressive for an untrained magus.

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>>135888069

>>135888034
Sakura gets the hate for two reasons. One: Sakura gave up hope of being saved/helping herself (for some reason NOBODY remembers or cares about Zouken's ability to kill her at any given time). Two: waifufaggotry

>>135887676
meant for
>>135887120

>>135887894
>You don't get more naive in parenting than this guy.
Well you see there's this guy called Ashton Lhant.
He may have taken his youngest of two sons, who care about each other deeply and respect each other, and shipped him away to a completely different and sand filled country. Not explaining why he did so to either the son he kept OR the son he shipped away and going 'you'll understand one day'. His reasons for doing so is the two sons don't fight over a spit of land the size of your average street and when both already had a better plan to not fight over it. This plan failed when the younger brother came back to save the town from invaders only to take it over himself as part of his foster father starting a coup. The only reason this plan worked out was because of Alien Parasites taking over a Prince and draining all energy for the planet and that they are mutual friends with a robot girl made of Moon/Mars magic.
He also died before anyone could call his shit out like Tokiami

>>135883037
This. Plus giving away one of his daughter to a old man.

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>>135888892
Which one?

>>135888296
>for some reason NOBODY remembers or cares about Zouken's ability to kill her at any given time)
Well that kinda failed when she took him out and killed him

>>135888034
here's the logic behind it
rape is bad
people who cause it directly and indirectly are bad
people who try to stop it are good
people who enjoy it are bad

see? very simple

>>135888149

Sakura mentions him being impressive when it's apparent he doesn't have the talent, but it's still an ironclad thing that he is only a mediocre magus who has his RM by a freak accident and reinforcement, maybe a spell or two. For magus society that prides itself on bloodline, special talent, and usefulness, he is bottom of the barrel. But then again the Association is full of contradictions.

The thing is that it's the special over specialized people who do the big things in that universe, not just being a genius or gifted.

>>135889106

That was only because she was hooked to something she had no knowledge of previously thanks to him doing 10 years of torturous experiments that, if she hadn't had strong blood and will, would have killed her.

It doesn't change that without the freak occurrence of AM, he would have just destroyed her internal organs from the inside and eaten her brain had she disobeyed. The fact she saw Kariya get eaten alive at five years old was a factor too, not many kids are gonna try to fight back when they know the same familiars who turned a person they cared about into chunks of meat on the basement floor populate the entirety of their body current. That isn't cowardice, it's common sense.

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>>135888296
And 3, having superior clones

>>135889769
>he doesn't have the talent
I disagree. Disregarding weapons, as they come from UBW/his origin, he manages to make long lasting projection without any kind of formal training, given that he doesn't even know how to activate his natural circuits.
I agree that he (probably) has nothing in the matter of bloodlines given that we don't know his parents and inherited nothing from Kiri, but he is talented in his magecraft.
How useful it is is debatable. His abilities are good for fighting, he'd make a good rogue mage hunter.

As for overspecialization, he definitely fits. All he can do is conjure and enhance things. Possibly some kind of affinity for detecting magic given how he finds the sigil for bloodfort, but then again he can't sense that Rin or Sakura are magi.

Kirei is the best character in the franchise. Prove me wrong.

>>135888296
>Sakura gets the hate for two reasons. One: Sakura gave up hope of being saved/helping herself

It's not that she gave up hope on it, she just knows how the society she was brought up in operates, she is kind of under the thrall of a wicked magus. The most help she would get from anyone in the know is a "so?" or "there is nothing I can do" followed by torture from Zouken since he knows where she is and what is going on with her all the time. If there was any time she should have been looked at, it was before the experiments began and Zouken's familiars started fusing with her vital organs. Now it's much harder, and there aren't many that would go out on a limb to help her.

There is Rin, but Rin is unreliable on that front, all someone would have to do is trick her into thinking she couldn't be saved and her rationale would turn into putting the girl down "for her own good", which is pretty much giving up.

It only makes it more miraculous that a magic experiment like her ends up getting a bishop of the church as a father figure and mentor, working to regain some semblance of something out of years of being a lab rat.

>>135887676
>Being good at tracing is like being good at breathing.
Is breathing rare and broken as fuck? because Tracing is.
Shirou's projection (called Tracing) is not your average magus' projection, it's pretty much unique to him and it's effects violate the laws of physics and magic alike.
Normal projection can't make permanent objects out of thin air, cant create bullshit OP weapons like NPs, and can't reproduce the history of the weapon or it's owner's skills.

>>135890639

I know Shirou is special, but this is from a magus perspective, who are elitist assholes only out to further their research.

I mean, look at Sakura, her own father adopted her out because he feared that she would end up in a test tube by some kidnapper because she didn't have a crest. The world of magi is that wasteful that they would kidnap toddlers and put them in preservation yanks for spare parts rather than train them.

Point is, even with Shirou's powers, he doesn't have notable talent. He has one strong specialty centers on close combat weaponry, only because he had an artifact of great power stored inside him. He won't be the leading researcher or contribute toward research into the Root, so he useless except for stripping his circuits and studying why he has a reality marble. He is no more than a tasty bit of meat.

>>135891235
Shirou is easily at the top 5% of combat oriented mages.

He could easily become a hitman or an runner like Shiki did

>>135889252
>people who cause it directly and indirectly are bad
If you and your family are held at gunpoint and you're told to rape an educated prostitute or else you all die, including the prostitute, would raping her still be bad?
>people who try to stop it are good
What about a man who stops another from trying to rape a girl because he wants to forcefully take her virginity himself?
What about a person who embarks on a crusade to stop worldwide rape by torturing and killing every person that has raped, tried to rape or indirectly caused another person to get raped?
>people who enjoy it are bad
What about Sakura? she clearly enjoyed rape, at least her body did. Does that make her a bad person?

See? not that simple.

>>135888296
Maybe because she is shit. I am tired of explaining it to you shitters and then get ignored the very next thread as you shitters spout your opinions on why you think people dislike that cunt.

>>135882464
He is a shit father.

>>135891235
Nasu begs to disagree.
As a theoretical formal magus, he doesn't have much future but
>as a spell-user, he'll be among one of the big specialists. Ultimately, he'll receive an evaluation on the same level as "Magus Killer" Emiya Kiritsugu had in his peak
That's pretty good if you ask me.

>>135882464
Summoning Gilgamesh it doesn't mean a instant win.

>>135891714
Especially in the 4th HGW, where the servants are much more OP than the ones in F/SN.

>>135891714
It gives you the best chances as long as you suck his dick and treat him like a king (literally)

>>135891470
i want this to be me

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>>135888069
absolutely brutal

>>135891813
>Berserker
Heracles curbstomps Lancelot any day.
>Assassin
Hassan a shit.
>Rider
Iskandar probably wins
>Lancer
Cu Chulainn beats Deermud
>Caster
Probably matched

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>>135888069

Guys, I've seen a picture of saber and dark saber fighting, the movie isn't out yet right?

So from where that picture is from?

>>135891910
>Caster
>Prob matched
Actually Medea is regarded as the strongest magecraft user in typemoon. She shits over the frenchman in every aspect

>More boom
>Causality control
>time control
compared to
>tentacles
>big tentacle
>small tentacle

>>135884546
Well he gave Sakura to Matou so yeah you're probably right

>>135891235
>adopted her out
No. He did that because that's what magi do. One child receives magecraft training, the other live as normal people. Plus, one of the three founding families needed a heir.
>only because an artifact
Also wrong. That changed his origin to sword and that's the reason he can project swords with little difficulty, but the other things he creates are unrelated to swords or combat in general and are just as resilient as combat equipment.

>>135882464
technically perfect choice for Servant but failed miserably at ererything else

>>135891345
>If you and your family are held at gunpoint and you're told to rape an educated prostitute or else you all die, including the prostitute, would raping her still be bad?

Nice strawman.

>>135891714
Summoning Gil was a guaranteed failure because his goal was the root. Chances of victory were slim enough, never mind getting Gil to kill commit suicide without any snags.

>>135891235
Honestly who gives a fuck about the root. Mages need to get over themselves, fucking heretics

>>135892300
Nice ignoring everything. Why even bother giving me (you)s if you can't answer for shit?

>>135891910
You don't know shit, secondary-kun.

>Iskandar probably wins
Medusa is a better melee fighter, IH can't do shit against Bellerophon (airborne and anti-army GG), and on top of it, Iskandar has no counter for Medusa's Cybele, neither does his army. This battle is so one-sided it's not even funny.

>Cu Chulainn beats Deermud
Only in Ireland. Anywhere else Diarmuid has the edge due to his much better master support. This was stated by Nasu, btw.

>Probably matched
Medea wrecks Gilles' ass in a normal fight with no prep. With prep and at peak level, Gilles gets Ctulhu but Medea gets slave Saber, Archer and Assassin. Not to mention that Rule Breaker can pull the same shit Lancer did with Gae Drearg to finish Gilles off.

>>135891633

Yes, but Kerry was feared, not highly regarded. My point was about value here. His value as a magus (a researcher under his own merit) is low, but it doesn't take away that he has something special. If you compared a 'magus' and a 'spell user' it would go like this, a spell user practices magic for his own sake, not seeking to further his practice or pass on his work, it's a tool to be used. A magus is opposite, where developing their craft is their lifestyle and profession. Sakura would probably skirt the line between them, but Shirou is a spell user and Rin/Luvia are magi.

It's the difference between objective value and subjective value. Shirou's value in the magus community is minimal.

>>135892588
>Only in Ireland. Anywhere else Diarmuid has the edge due to his much better master support. This was stated by Nasu, btw.
>having more fire power=/= stronger
Cu has the bigger legend, better fighter, better NP, better skills.

>Lancer did with Gae Drearg to finish Gilles off.
What?

>>135891910
>all that besides berserker
Jesus thats so many wrong that youre wrong

>>135882464
It's funny how Nasu and Gen make this guy did everything wrong, lol.

>>135892170
>strongest magecraft user in typemoon
Tell that to Grand Caster/Solomon

>>135893002
but can Solomon even hope to stand a chance against Uchiha Madara?

>>135892237
>No. He did that because that's what magi do. One child receives magecraft training, the other live as normal people. Plus, one of the three founding families needed a heir.

Tokiomi wanted her to be an heiress. But it was nonsensical because she would literally have had to rebuild the Matou on her own, and Tokiomi knew Zouken had fucked up the family for generations and the foundation of tue family's magecraft is unsuited to Japan. So it was a stupid idea he took up due to a pact that was long past expired. It was him being overly conservative again because he didn't bother actively looking for a better home. So he risked ruining her body and potential for political mumbo jumbo. Luckily, she survived all those years and ended up finding another mentor down the line, but it's no thanks to her father.

And second children are not always adopted out. Kayneth's little sister knows magecraft. Also see Sola's family. Her brother got the crest, but she was still taught magecraft and then married off later. Toujo was taught magecraft while Aoko learned later, but neither example were adopted out.

>>135893002
>Magecraft
>Not magic

>>135892931

He is thematically what is warped about magi is the point of his character.

I mean, everyone wants something like a reality marble, but people who get one and word gets out will be hunted down, designated to be sealed and used like lab monkeys. Not exactly an honor.

>>135888069

Fucking savage

>>135893150
>Tokiomi
Never said he was a sane or logical man. My point was that he did that because muh traditions, something you seem to agree on.
>second children
That's the general rule though, and most magi part of the Association adhere to it. Given that the Tohsaka bloodline was one of three that founded the HGW, they're pretty much expected to follow traditions.

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Could you beat Saber in baseball?

>>135895037
Since she sucks, yes.
I'd be scared of her if she actually learned to play though.
Also what is this a Saber for ants.

>>135895037

I'll show the king of England I'm the homerun King!

>>135883037
In normal circumstance gilgamesh could protect him from this kind of situation though.

>>135892761
>Cu has the bigger legend, better fighter, better NP, better skills.
Q: Cu Chulainn and Diarmuid are both Lancers, but who will win in an honourble battle? In their first engagement with Saber, Cu Chulainn was being pressed hard, but Diarmuid was able to pressure Saber. So... Diarmuid is stronger

A: Diarmuid received more backup from his Master (magical energy supply), thus in terms of pure firepower, Diarmuid was stronger. In Japan, both of them received 0 geographical boost (from the cultural sphere), but if the stage was in Ireland --- Cu Chulainn would have an edge.

>what?
do you even watch/read fate/zero??

>>135896177
>do you even watch/read fate/zero??
Lancer didn't finish Gilles off.

>>135896177
>Diarmund pressured Saber
No he didnt. He literally got Saber into a stupid gamble and didnt get fucked because of his unique NP.

>>135896177
The only time Gae Dearg was used on Caster was was when it hit his Book, which disrupted it for a few seconds before going back to normal. Deermud didn't do shit against Cthulhu.

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>>135895123
got you covered

>>135896177
That doesn't say anything about Deermud actually being better (master aside), it just says that neither of them get a geographical advantage in Japan.

>>135892588
>>135892588
>Anywhere else Diarmuid has the edge due to his much better master support
Only in a battle of pure technique. Diarmud get completely fucked by Gae Bolg with his E rank luck. Cu's also the faster of the two, and he can 1v1 Rune so Diarmud doesn't try hit and run tactics with Gae Buidhe

>>135888069
weww ladd

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>Tohsaka Tokiomi
>not a man comprised entirely of mistakes
>still not scanned

>>135890661
REJOICE
E
J
O
I
C
E

Well he made rin soo.

If you think about it, Tokiomi's responsible for nearly everything wrong in F/SN.

He's the reason Kotomine and Gil are running around
He gave up Sakura to Zouken, leading to all of Heaven's Feel
He left Rin an orphan

>>135892130
VN fag here

That never happens

>>135882464

The cruelty of life is that you can do everything perfectly and still lose.

Tokiomi cannot be blamed for Kirei, he was vetted well.

He also was buggered on Gil; If he was going solo, he may have been able to broker an grudging partnership with Gil despite being uninteresting.

He played the HGW correctly, effectively and "honorably", so he lost horribly.

>>135893002
>Grand Order

does nasu even approve that

>>135892130
Unlimited Codes, I think?

>>135898533
Well Aoi didn't exactly help with that last one by doing the dumb thing and not letting Kariya explain

>>135887746
Kariya's face cracks me up

>>135894969
>Never said he was a sane or logical man. My point was that he did that because muh traditions, something you seem to agree on.

I just point out the discrepancy. There are honestly some who just don't accept he and Aoi were warped as parents even when Nasu says they are in dictionary entries for them.

My argument is that there are alternatives to how they went about the situation, because I see quite often that some frame it as a thing that couldn't be helped despite facts that show otherwise.

And regardless of the fact that from their perspective, they loved and did their best for their children, they fucked up majorly, and the children paid for it. As parents sometimes do.

>>135898880
You're the guy who white knights Aoi, saying she did nothing wrong.

>>135893150
>>135894969
>>135898880
Did you guys forget that Tokiomi was also concerned how the Association would try to make Sakura a lab rat because she would not be under the protection of the heiress title?

This was even talked about in the narration monologue in the book.

>>135898722
>Tokiomi cannot be blamed for Kirei, he was vetted well

Not really, Tokiomi and Rise were framed as woefully ignorant of Kirei's personality. Risei in particular was noted to have been ignorant and almost avoiding personally trying to understand his son beyond his accomplishments as man of the Church.

I mean even Kiritsugu, who only knew the man for a week could tell the guy was screwed up by the fact he made so many accomplishments and yet treated it all like it was worthless. Moreover, the listlessness he had about EVERYTHING was as plain as day.

>>135899057
You act like the alternative of being a blow up doll for 10 years to a 500 year worm is much better.

>>135898961

Nope, I am the guy that understands that Tokiomi, Kariya, and Aoi all had hands in being less than stellar adults on Rin and Sakura's lives.

The real person at fault here is Zel for letting the HGW become the fucking mess we saw in Zero and FS/N.

>>135898835
I don't think dude is sane enough to explain shit though. Believe it or not Kariya's mind is pretty fucked up by that point.

Still, Aoi was partially blame for not setting her hubby straight and instead she roll with horse shit mage stuff.

>implying Solomon isn't the cause of 100% of everything wrong in Type-Moon works

>>135899620
Solomon is that Madara Uchiha-tier bullshit dude, right?

>>135899559
>I don't think dude is sane enough to explain shit though
Well INSTANTLY assuming a person killed your husband and marking him as your mortal enemy isn't exactly helping.

>>135899057

This was because he didn't take it into account before she was born. He counted on her being mediocre enough he could raise her as a normie, which was a stupid bet.

Then he decided to wait 4 years without doing much of anything until some old vampire he described to Kirei as a filthy heretic comes knocking at his door to bail him out of being a father, in his own words.

Her being taken by the Association doesn't excuse the rest of his poor decision making.

>>135899672
All servants are Madara Uchiha Pasta tier to some degree.
Just imagine for the sake of argument that Servants get summoned by a Master who can just make them EX in all stats. That's already in the ballpark of Nappa and introduction Vegeta or higher just on pure fighting ability alone.

>>135899843
But all Servants so far had weaknesses or could be defeated if the conditions were right.
Wasn't this Solomon just pure bullshit OP with a asslong list of stupidily broken powers as if some 8 yo said "Lets make the strongest Servant ever"?

>>135898835

Tensions were running high there, if you wanted to peg Aoi for something, it would be the conversation she had with him at the park after he saved Rin. She didn't report his declaration to Tokiomi about trying to free Sakura from Zouken.

>>135899843
>Master who can just make them EX in all stats
That's not how it works. Servants with shitty masters get their abilities limited by it, but it's not like any old Assassin will ever have full EX stats just because he has a godly master. The heroes themselves still have rough base stats based on their specialties, weaknesses and lives in general.

>>135899925
>"Lets make the strongest Servant ever"
Tell that to Nasu, dude was responsible for Solomon being stupidly OP and there will be another 6 more like Solomon to come.

>>135900021
>She didn't report his declaration to Tokiomi about trying to free Sakura from Zouken
Considering we've already established he knows what Zouken is doing to their daughter I'm pretty sure that would have been pointless.

>>135900168

Probably, but maybe it might get him to understand Kariya's position later on and maybe have the common sense to ask why he was so angry.

Regardless, even if Tokiomi was incensed that she was just bring made into a lab rat anyway, he would ultimately go for the euthanasia route if Zouken used her as a hostage. I don't hold out much hope for him as a dad.

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>>135898879
Kariya's a funny guy.

>>135898341
The art style....
Is this related to that doujin where Shiroj qnd Sakura fucked all the time around the whole house while the rest was out, and Sakura got (supposedly) pregnant?
I liked that one

>>135883851

How would he feel about one of his daughters being half a lesbian?

>>135898738
It's canonically after Ataraxia in the main canon story line
So yeah

>>135900090
>Servants with shitty masters get their abilities limited by it
or in Saber's case fucking Kneecapped by it.
Seriously with Shirou none of her stats reach above B, but Rin even still untrained can make Saber A in almost everything.

>>135899620
Solomon =/= Salomón
One is the Apocrypha Caster of Black
The other is the Grand Caster originally in charge of protecting the Earth besides the other Grand Servants

>>135899620
>implying Solomon is the true villain
>implying Manaka isn't the puppeteer pulling his strings

>>135901051
Well you could argue this is more Future Shirou wanting to keep Rin safe because he cares about her.

>>135899925
Didnt Gilgamesh already do that ?

>>135901406
Yes, but Gilgamesh was in the original Fate/stay night visual I remember reading when I was still an impressionable teenager.

>>135901304
>
or the EMIYA couldn't be bothered to put up with her shit.

I'm watching Zero for the first time and it's incredible how much better it is than F/SN VN at some points.

>>135900767
>ne
Oji-san is one thing, but that shit is full weeaboo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WO4L9B4ih0

>>135888034
Tokiomi gave up on his daughter and his wife didnt do anything to stop him.

Kariya decided to go into a battle he had no chance of winning for the sole reason of looking good in front of a girl. The only reason he acted so edgy was because Kirei and Zouken dedicated themselves to making him suffer.

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>>135901796
It was really funny, though.

>>135901878
Being Kariya is suffering

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>>135901993
Being Kariya is to put smiles on the faces of those who need it the most.

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>>135901993
I wouldn't want my Wormhobo being any other way.

>>135901993
Could you imagine the Cuckriya spam if Fate Zero had aired when that word got popular?

If Eve never ate the Apple and convinced Adam to do so as well for the Pussy game none of this shit would have happened.
The real villain of Fate is Eve.

>>135904256
Solomon told Satan to be a dick and tempt Eve though

>>135905010
Pretty sure Adam and Eve predate Solomon.
Hell I think they predate Zeus, Odin, Izanagi and any other patron god except God.

>>135905227
its a meme you dip

>>135905285
So is claiming Eve is the real villain of fate.

>>135901556

Its more that Shirou admired her yet always wanted to look cool in front of her. Like Araragi wants to with Hanekawa.