>>135760946 Why was he killed? He posed no threat to Kiritsugu or anybody at all near the end, and I thought Kiritsugu only killed people if it was for the greater good. He just wanted to escape with his lover.
In the Fourth Holy Grail War, the following strategy would insure the absolute victory of Team Lancer: Kayneth must not let his Servant recognize such things as honour on the battle field or knights' pride. He must let Diarmuid realize that the Holy Grail War was merely dirty chores that needed to be done. In order to fulfill the previous item, Kayneth must avoid any contact between Diarmuid and Saber with his best effort. In combat, Kayneth must prioritize securing an exit. In a battle, missions would be considered accomplished if Diarmuid scored one hit with Gae Buidhe. Repeat this tactic, and exhaust all hostile teams. Capitalize on Team Berserker. Team Berserker was a powerful enemy against all other teams, but Lancer had an advantage due to compatibility. It would be optimal to let Berserker destroy the other teams and reach the finale. He could then be defeated at that point.
>>135760946 1) Ditch the bitch 2) Prevent Deermud from fighting Saber in his first encounter and becoming obsessed with muh honorable duel. 3) Don't seek more command spells 3) Ally with Lancelot to get rid of the other servants, supporting Kariya so he doesn't die. 4) Kill Lancelot at the very end, since Lancer is his worst match up.
According to Zero Material, he did have a shot at winning the war.
>>135764248 That's "absolute victory", pal. Not "high likelihood of success" or "everything except..." Diarmuid + Lancelot can beat Gil, apparently. Presumably when he's too busy posturing about mongrels.
>>135764444 Quads confirm. Lancelot has a decent counter for GoB and Vimana, and Diarmuid specializes in defeating strong enemies who relies on powerful NPs with his strategy. Also, GoB spam probably can't do much against Lancer's A+ agility and EotM True combo.
These two nailed it. Since Diarmuid got the short straw, being knigtly, pure and just and still killed for the hell of it, his true potential will never be show or known. He still managed to fuck all the rest up by cursing the grail. He still hurt Saber pretty good. Diarmuid had all the potential and simply got a bad master/servant match.
He isnt't interested in anyone except for Saber (but probably only in a professional manner), but bitches want him because of Irish curse love-spot thingy. His curse follows him: always accused for doing nothing and not getting a fair trial or setting or romantic interest ever.
>>135765250 >Diarmuid vs. Cu, who wins? Diarmuid if Cu isn't bold enough to NP as soon as possible. Probably Cu otherwise, but maybe not (depends on if Diarmuid can prevent Gae Bolg's activation with Gae Dearg). >Diarmuid vs. Medusa, who wins? Diarmuid is a slayer of warriors, not of monsters. There is no way he could possibly handle Pegasus. Additionally, his magical energy (D rank) is far too low to prevent Cybele from petrifying him. Overwhelming Medusa victory. >Diarmuid vs. EMIYA, who wins? Complicated. Depends on if Gae Dearg dispels projections. Probably Diarmuid if so, probably EMIYA if not. Could go either way in any case due to sheer unpredictability of both's fighting styles. >Diarmuid vs. Sasaki, who wins? If it's on Kojirou's anti-servant battleground, Kojirou either fights to a draw or wins.
>>135761526 >took away the thing that a man lives for not to mention what he uses for a living >took away the love of his life >took away his chances to have his wish granted >took away his fucking legs
yea sure lets leave this man of wealth alive and means, what could go wrong
>>135765480 >Diarmuid is shit compared to most servant in both wars. Diarmuid has the edge against Cu, according to Nasu. Cu can only beat him for sure in Ireland, because he has shitty master support.
>>135765548 >Gae Dearg dispels projections Who the fuck came with this retarded idea?
>That red spear can cut off prana. Nevertheless, it's not so powerful that it could break or cancel the source of the magecraft. Saber's armor is still fine, and Invisible Air is still functioning correctly. The spear is effective only the instant it hits the blade.
You fuckers need to read Zero. Gae Drearg can't even dispel Saber's generic prana armor of Invisible Air.
>>135766074 Projections collapse whenever the image created by the caster's mind doesn't match the item that exists in the world. Disrupting them at all, even momentarily such as by making contact with Gae Dearg, should make them crumble into magical energy. But it won't, say, destroy Unlimited Blade Works if he deploys the bounded field.
>>135766224 >Disrupting them at all, even momentarily such as by making contact with Gae Dearg, should make them crumble into magical energy Citation fucking needed. Gae Drearg's anti magic is not neatly as powerful as shit like Rule Breaker. If it can't dispel weak-ass magic like Invisible Air or Saber's armor, it sure as hell can't dispell shit that directly comes from a Reality Marble, magecraft so complicated it's close to being True Magic. We've never seen Archer having any sort of trouble sustaining a projection, that image bullshit happens to Shirou only, and when he's still learning how to use his skills.
>>135766561 >Citation fucking needed. Fate/Stay Night itself. It's how projections work. Once the illusion that exists doesn't match the illusion that is thought of, they fall to bits. Tohsaka's explanations. It's why Shirou's swords evaporate after getting scratched. >Gae Drearg's anti magic is not neatly as powerful as shit like Rule Breaker. If it can't dispel weak-ass magic like Invisible Air or Saber's armor, it sure as hell can't dispell shit that directly comes from a Reality Marble, magecraft so complicated it's close to being True Magic. It wouldn't be dispelling them directly, it would be disrupting them momentarily, then they fall apart on their own because projection is fragile like that. >We've never seen Archer having any sort of trouble sustaining a projection, that image bullshit happens to Shirou only, and when he's still learning how to use his skills. Archer loses dozens of swords in his exchange against Cuchulainn.
>>135766561 >Gae Drearg's anti magic is not neatly as powerful as shit like Rule Breaker. If it can't dispel weak-ass magic like Invisible Air or Saber's armor, it sure as hell can't dispell shit that directly comes from a Reality Marble, magecraft so complicated it's close to being True Magic. Projection is literally just shaping magical energy and pretending it's real. It's not complex at all. That's why it's utter shit for most magi. Shirou's swords are just because Shirou is really, really good at pretend swords. But it's still just magical energy, the very thing that Gae Dearg severs. You complain it can't deal with the C rank Invisible Air, yet it perfectly and instantly deals with the A++ Knight of Honor.
>>135766831 First, Tohsaka doesn't know shit about Shirou's projection. Illya proves this in HF.
Second, Shirou is not Archer. He has trouble mantaining projections because he is an amateur that didn't even know the true nature of his magic.
Third, and most important, you need to post proof that Gae Drearg affects projections that way. The mechanics of Archer's projections are vague as fuck, since he showed that he can sustain the image of projections that are almost completely destroyed beyond recognition just fine. Rho Aias is the ultimate proof of this.
>Archer loses dozens of swords in his exchange against Cuchulainn He was getting disarmed, it has nothing to do with the projection's images. The projections never gave away because he lost focus, they were being physically shattered by sheer strength or taken out of his hands.
>>135767101 >Projection is literally just shaping magical energy and pretending it's real. It's not complex at all. That's why it's utter shit for most magi. Shirou doesn't actually do projections. Projection is a shit magic that's only temporary, acts as an overlay to existing objects, and is used for rituals. Shirou's projections violate the laws of equivalent exchange and could potentially stay in the world as long as he lives, like the stuff in his shed. Shirou's only magic is UBW, it was mentioned a crapton of times everywhere. And that magic is some of the most complex shit you'll see among modern magi. And Knight of Honor doesn't get affected by GD, it's the NPs it creates, which are very low rank, not A++.
>>135767262 >First, Tohsaka doesn't know shit about Shirou's projection. Illya proves this in HF. It's still Gradation Air, just like his Strengthening is still the same magecraft. It abides by the fundamental same property of shaping magical energy into a device. >Second, Shirou is not Archer. He has trouble mantaining projections because he is an amateur that didn't even know the true nature of his magic. Practice doesn't change this quality at all. >Third, and most important, you need to post proof that Gae Drearg affects projections that way. The mechanics of Archer's projections are vague as fuck, since he showed that he can sustain the image of projections that are almost completely destroyed beyond recognition just fine. Rho Aias is the ultimate proof of this. Gae Dearg interferes with patterns of magical energy and that's all that a projection is at its barest nature. Even created by Unlimited Blade Works, they are just magical energy. >He was getting disarmed, it has nothing to do with the projection's images. The projections never gave away because he lost focus, they were being physically shattered by sheer strength or taken out of his hands. And they immediately disintegrate. There are no swords littering the ground.
But I don't care about this enough to go further. Nasu could easily write it either way, there's plenty of space to justify it, and it could be denied in any case.
>>135767576 It is not Gradation Air, which refers to projection.
Shirou's and Archer's version is tracing. Its born out of their misunderstanding of the proper magecraft, which should be creating an object that would disappear some time after as its an phantasmal existence with no history. Tracing creates the items with "history", thus makes them permanent.
The only "projection" they use is when they are using the weapons without a fully realised UBW. Even then this is not a "projection" but "materialization" where the object they've originally traced remain in UBW and only it's phantasm is called but again once called those work as if they're the traced version.
>Projection [Magecraft] >Gradation Air. >A sorcery that uses magical energy to materialize a mirror image of an object. >As Rin mentioned in the story, it's not very efficient. >That's because, if you're making a replica of something, rather than using projection it's easier and more practical just to gather the materials and build it yourself. >Normally, it is only used to project a substitute for an item that has already been lost, and for just a few minutes within one's own time axis. >At any rate, since Gradation Air is just supposed to be a short-term rental of the item's outward appearance, you can see why the version used by Shirou and Archer is completely ridiculous. It's no wonder that Rin wanted to kill him when she saw his shed. >Of course, Shirou can only project things that are related to weapons in some way – or more specifically, swords. Modern weapons are off limits. >Well, technically he can pull out shields or armor, too, if he strains himself to his utmost limits, but the effects only last for an instant and the cost is enormous.
>>135767576 >It abides by the fundamental same property of shaping magical energy into a device Then it's just the same as Saber's armor, which can't be dispelled by Gae Drearg. >Practice doesn't change this quality at all. Dude, you need to back your shit up with quotes. This is downright wrong. Archer's skills are miles ahead of Shirou's, he could project K&B in his sleep, while Shirou almost killed himself every time he attempted a projection. Archer even mocks Shirou's projection skills in UBW. >Gae Dearg interferes with patterns of magical energy and that's all that a projection is at its barest nature. Even created by Unlimited Blade Works, they are just magical energy Saber's armor is the same, and even servants are just magical energy. You don't seem to get that Gae Drearg doesn't fucking dispel magical energy, it just weakens it's effects somewhat. Who even says that Gae Drearg's magic is stronger than UBW's magic? GD is a mundane NP, while UBW is all kinds of broken. Dispelling a common servant prana armor that isn't even a NP is easier than dispelling a prana Noble Phantasm, and Diarmuid can't even do that. >And they immediately disintegrate Citation needed. The VN doesn't say so. Also, who says Archer isn't dispelling them on his own? why waste prana supporting broken sword shards?
>>135768139 >Also, who says Archer isn't dispelling them on his own? why waste prana supporting broken sword shards? It doesn't cost magical energy to maintain a projection. All the magical energy is expended in their creation, then they persist wtih what they have.
The Grail does things on a whim. Diarmuid literally wanted it to bring disaster on whoever touched it. It exploded in blood during Kirei's and Kiritsugu's fight before anyone even looked at it, and it did so while filling up with blood from the fallen servants - including Diarmuid's blood. Objections?
Projection skill quality don't change what projections are made of. Even if he doesn't cause them to collapse, doesn't this just mean projections could not be used to block or parry Gae Dearg? Even if it just disrupts them for the single moment it makes contact. That's a lethal disadvantage for EMIYA in any case.
Also, if there were shattered swords littering the ground, Cu would have commented on that and not been confused about Archer's trickery. Also, the ufotable anime which was vetted by Nasu had them evaporating.
I've had enough, and I'm bailing on this thread in any case.
>>135768546 >Even if he doesn't cause them to collapse, doesn't this just mean projections could not be used to block or parry Gae Dearg? We just don't know that. >Even if it just disrupts them for the single moment it makes contact. That's a lethal disadvantage for EMIYA in any case. I don't care, my point is that GD isn't stong enough to dispel magical constructs, let alone projections. This was proven by Zero and you failed do deliver convincing evidence that contradicts the LN.
>>135768706 I for one don't fuss over such technicalities. The interaction wouldn't need to be breaking the projections, it'd be whether Archer could defend against Gae Dearg like he can against Gae Bolg. Whether his swords vanish or are just ignored but intact doesn't really matter.
>>135768849 >Whether his swords vanish or are just ignored but intact doesn't really matter. Nothing matters when you can nuke your oponent and his master from 4km away. Diarmuid just sucks against Assassin-like servants. He would even break GD if Archer asked for a fair duel.
>>135768787 >>135768795 >>135768820 He's fucking evil and he loves it. I cheered when I first saw his beatdown of Berserker animated in UBW and his screentime is always gold. He's arrogant but he's the most god damned powerful and wealthy being on the planet. Even if that arrogance wasn't completely justified (which it is) I'd still love him because arrogant characters that don't ever take it down a notch are just maddeningly entertaining to me. I flat out reject any scenario in FSN that involves him dying because it's out of character.
>>135769005 Did you miss the part when he literally broke GB so Saber could fight on equal grounds with him? he removed the disadvantage of Saber's injury AND removed his own advantage by losing one of his NPs.
Lancer wouldn't think it twice and just stop using GD, assuming it can even destroy projections, just to be able to match his skills against the guy who went toe to toe against Heracles, Cu Chulain and King Arthur.
>>135769226 >Did you miss the part when he literally broke GB so Saber could fight on equal grounds with him? He broke it so Saber could use Excalibur on the gigantic tentacle rapist. He was planning on pressing his hand advantage as hard as he possibly could in their duel.
>It was a meticulous plan to use one of his two Noble Phantasms first, and cunningly lure his enemy into carelessness. Saber was not angry with the trick; rather, she eagerly wanted to applaud Lancer's scheme. >This enemy is perfect. >She encountered such a flawless enemy for the first battle of the Holy Grail War. As a warrior who lived by the sword, it was inevitable that her fighting spirit ascend to the skies when faced with a fabulous opponent. At the same time Diarmuid ua Duibhne, the one that stood opposing Saber, was also forcing himself to face her not only with tricks, but spending all of his wits on this ultimate battle. >Lancer would have detected Saber's vigor without words. A satisfied grin seeped up Lancer's mouth. His heart felt the exact same way as Saber's did. Lancer respected Saber for sacrificing her left arm to block the surprise attack of his Gáe Buidhe that was unleashed for the kill. It added an extra sheen to the joy Lancer associated with the worth of winning this battle. >As knights, the two Heroic Spirits even echoed each other on their souls' desire to do battle. >"Prepare yourself, Saber, I will win this time." >"Only if I do not win first, Lancer." >The two exchanged their bold provocations as both planned their next, fatal attack, slowly and cautiously approaching the other.
I'm inclined towards her resistance since his charm seems to work on every woman with none or very small knowledge of magic and/or magic resistance. But with E luck, Saber might as well be a muff diver
>>135769395 >Diarmuid's E ranked luck He and Cu should have E- rank luck, or even less. Archer has E rank luck and doesn't fuck up as bad as them, only in his fight with Rider. He even won the HGW in UBW (kinda).
>>135769565 What the fuck did you think I meant by "their duel"? I didn't say "their rematch". In any case, how would that change anything? He didn't break Gae Buidhe to level the playing field at all. He didn't want to level the playing field. Nothing ever implies as much, nor would he have broken Gae Buidhe to do so.
>>135769744 Take a look at the EX ranked luck of Francis Drake! >given an arrogant, ignorant child for a master >knocked out in the first round by the shittiest master with a cripple servant who has no idea what he's doing
>>135769640 >He didn't break Gae Buidhe to level the playing field at all Except he did. Remember how Saber tried to fight pretending she was still injured and he didn't want her to do so? I guess not. He also didn't kill Kerry or Saber when they were helpless, and had to be ordered to fight with a command spell when Berserker showed up. He is a moralfag whiteknight that loves honor, you're just arguing against the core of his character. His whole personal tragedy revolves around dishonoring his lord involuntarily because of his natural charm.
>>135769945 >Except he did. Remember how Saber tried to fight pretending she was still injured and he didn't want her to do so? Nigga that was days after Gae Buidhe was shattered. SHE was the one leveling the playing field on HIM, and he didn't want it. Did you forget literally everything? >He also didn't kill Kerry or Saber when they were helpless, and had to be ordered to fight with a command spell when Berserker showed up. Politeness. >He is a moralfag whiteknight that loves honor, you're just arguing against the core of his character. His whole personal tragedy revolves around dishonoring his lord involuntarily because of his natural charm. His character is not "break my fucking weapons for no reason to give you a fair shot". You don't have the slightest grasp on what honor means.
>>135770028 >Nigga that was days after Gae Buidhe was shattered So? Saber starting the rematch injured and not being able to use her NP was a disadvantage, he did level the playing field. Why do I bother, you obviously don't even get what honor means. You didn't even read any of their dialogue during the fight and before.
>>135770392 >So? Saber starting the rematch injured and not being able to use her NP was a disadvantage, he did level the playing field. That is not the reason he broke Gae Buidhe. It was a drawback for him that he considered worth the cost of victory. Read the fucking book. >Why do I bother, you obviously don't even get what honor means. >You didn't even read any of their dialogue during the fight and before. Please, point out any line where he said "I broke my spear so you could fight me at full power", or anything even tangentially interpretable as that.
>>135769862 She is called a top class servant for a reason, because her abilities really can accomplish miracles.
However it was noted that because her master was Shinji, she could not show any of her real ability there, and as a digression she couldn't really get into her "Challenge fate itself" mode because fighting a weak master like MC couldn't excite her in the end.
She can only show her true strength against an indomitable foe. After all El Draque is the one that beat the Invincible Armada in life, she only gets excited when its called impossible.
She likes being the underdog, not the top dog.
In the end her defeat came down to going up against the "player" at the start, since he know the player can't ever lose a game, and because her master was Shinji.
>>135770462 Shirou would spend his time trying to fix his dad. Expect long lectures followed by an emergency dropping out of the war/rescuing Illya, then seeking to dismantle the great grail before calamity strikes. Archer could not possibly cause a self-destroying paradox in such a different universe, and he cannot take his anger out on a boy he doesn't even recognize, so he'd at least try to spare a version of himself his own fate.
>>135770462 Poor compatibility in an odd sense, despite people maybe thinking they're superficially the same.
I'd say Robin Hood and Kiritsugu would work out far better.
Archer despite how he acts, is a lot softer than Kiritsugu, which would cause some strife as it goes along. Its noted even in the difference of Robin and EMIYA's fighting styles; Robin sets traps to kill people, EMIYA sets traps to disable or dissuade them.
Its said in that data books that if Diarmund had not met Saber like he did, then his deep rooted HONOR would not have awakened, and he would have fought more inline with Kayneth's expectations.
At his base self, Diarmund would not mind fighting without honor so much, but because he met Saber, he became an Honorfag during the 4th war.
In order to win the war with Diarmund, its noted in his entry he must not be allowed to meet with Saber, and he must simple understand that the grail war is a dirty deed that must be accomplished, rather than honorable fights.
>>135770530 Nobody is saying he fights without honor you dumb strawmanning shit. It's just that "honor" does not mean "cripple myself for no reason whatsoever". Saber was crippling herself because of her guilt that Diarmuid would break his weapon for the sake of victory. She was not crippling herself to give Diarmuid a fair chance, but to alleviate her own shame.
>>135770671 >"cripple myself for no reason whatsoever" Nobody is saying this, you dumb strawmanning shit. >She was not crippling herself to give Diarmuid a fair chance, but to alleviate her own shame. That's it. Read Fate/Zero and come back, secondary. We'll continue on another thread sometime after you get to know your source materials.
>tfw you're Lancer cheerfully fishing then this mothefucker comes and disturbs you're hobby >tfw you're Lancer and get your three schoolgirls but comes other Emiya and fucks up you're party because hot dogs
>>135770866 >Nobody is saying this, you dumb strawmanning shit. Except you are claiming he'd shatter his weapon to give his enemy a fair fight. That is completely out of line. >That's it. Read Fate/Zero and come back, secondary. We'll continue on another thread sometime after you get to know your source materials. How about I quote it? >Indeed, Lancer had once used the demonic lance Gáe Buidhe to seal the strength of Saber’s left hand, but in the battle against Caster last night, Lancer had destroyed the cursed yellow lance, proactively giving up the advantageous lead. But Saber’s pride would not settle for accepting Lancer’s concession, and so she intentionally did not use her left hand. This, then, was an action of true chivalry. >But—even that concession that was noble enough to inspire instantaneous respect—Lancer did not welcome this action from his heart. >If the action of casting away Gáe Buidhe had caused Saber unnecessary concern. >From the final result, it meant that Lancer’s actions had dampened the enthusiasm of the showdown between the two. It was a battle in which both parties did not have any regrets, and used all their strength to face off, that Lancer had hoped for. If Saber had held back because she could not put aside her consideration of the fairness of circumstance, Lancer was truly somewhat uneasy about the battle. >"—If you misunderstand, I will be very troubled. Lancer." >As if having guessed what Lancer was thinking, Saber shook her head with a stern but calm expression. >"If I were to use my left hand, my shame would definitely slow my sword. Facing your superb skills with the lance, this would be a fatal mistake." >"Saber..." >"So, Diarmuid, this is really the best strategy I use in order to put all my strength into bringing you down."
>>135771052 Your own out of context quoute disproves you.
>Lancer did not welcome this action from his heart. This is proof that he considered it fair that Saber fought with both hands intact.
>It was a battle in which both parties did not have any regrets, and used all their strength to face off, that Lancer had hoped for. And because of that, he wanted Saber to be able to use her left hand to show all her fighting skills.
>"If I were to use my left hand, my shame would definitely slow my sword" Hyperbole, by the way.
>>135771154 You know, if Archer and Lancer were bro's, they would be quite a pair of wingmans and fuck the whole city of Fuyuki in the 4 days of HA Until Lancer get's close to Taiga Then battle unfolds.
>>135771291 >Your own out of context quoute disproves you. That is literally the very context of their duel. >This is proof that he considered it fair that Saber fought with both hands intact. Yes. Because he accepted the cost of breaking Gae Buidhe. >And because of that, he wanted Saber to be able to use her left hand to show all her fighting skills. Yes. Because he accepted the cost of breaking Gae Buidhe. What is this supposed to "prove"? He didn't break Gae Buidhe for her to fight at full power. He just honorably accepted her to fight at full power despite breaking Gae Buidhe. He did not expect, nor want, a concession. He still broke the weapon for a completely unrelated reason. >Hyperbole, by the way. The narration IMMEDIATELY follows up with confirming that.
>Shining in her eyes was only an awe-inspiring, coolly clear will to fight. There was no carelessness, nor was there hesitation. >Perhaps to her, the extent of the injury to her left hand was only of secondary importance in battle. Perhaps the most important contributor to Saber’s ability to obtain victory was in the clear fighting spirit and passion for battle that had been honed to purity. >To sever her confusion, she would rather give up her left hand—the pride hidden in her heart, then, was her greatest weapon.
Not hyperbole, not the character bluffing. Narration says "if she wasn't doing that, she actually would cripple herself harder than doing that".
>>135766631 It actually does make it weaker you fucking retard, by a massive margin. >Fate/Zero Anime Visual Guide II: >Higashide: Incidentally, does the sharpness of Excalibur vary when covered with and without Invisible Air? >Nasu: It varies considerably. The destructive power of this golden version is overwhelmingly superior. If the power when in Invisible Air is 80-90, the golden version is about 1000. 東出：ところで、エクスカリバーって風王結界をまとっているのと、まとっていないのとでは切れ味って変わる ものなの？ 奈須：結構変わる。この黄金バージョンのほうが破壊力は圧倒的に上。風王結界時の威力を90～80だとした ら、黄金バージョンは1000ぐらいある。
>>135771465 Literally apples to oranges. You're comparing invisible air to the magical energy saturated golden Excalibur, not just Excalibur.
Fate/Complete Material III World Material
Invisible Air Rank: C Type: Anti-Unit Range: 1~2 Maximum Targets: 1 Object
A barrier that renders the blade hidden by entangling it with layers of wind, and altering the light refraction rate. It is closer to a sorcery than a Noble Phantasm. By using this barrier, Artoria can attack without the opponent recognising the sword’s reach and trajectory. Since concealing one’s Noble Phantasm also conceals one’s true identity, Invisible Air was highly effective at the early stages of the Holy Grail War. It also has other advantages such as increasing attack power and accuracy. Entangling the sword with wind and using the wind as the blade enhances the attack power, while having an “invisible weapon” provides an advantage in accuracy. Since the advantage of Invisible Air lies in “invisibility”, the accuracy increase will not occur while engaging opponents who possess Eye of the Mind or do not depend on vision. In the Fourth Holy Grail War, Artoria unleashed the condensed air and used it as a long-range weapon that mauls down groups of enemies --- “The Iron Mallet of the Wind King”.
>Entangling the sword with wind and using the wind as the blade enhances the attack power
>>135771417 Dude, your argument is just a mess. It's like you don't even know your own point. First you claimed, and I quote: >SHE was the one leveling the playing field on HIM But then you post this quote: >Lancer had destroyed the cursed yellow lance, proactively giving up the advantageous lead.
According to the second one, Lancer had the lead and he then evened out the field. Yet you said Saber was the one with the advantage and was leveling up the field. This is a clear contradiction. So I'll favor the quote from Zero and conclude that Lancer was the one giving away his advantage to have a fair fight.
Next time keep it concise and don't lose yourself in the heat of the debate, otherwise you'll just keep doing 180º turns on your own beliefs.
>>135771727 >First you claimed, and I quote: >SHE was the one leveling the playing field on HIM >But then you post this quote: >Lancer had destroyed the cursed yellow lance, proactively giving up the advantageous lead. Those are not mutually exclusive, you fuck. Lancer gave up his lead, but not for honor's sake alone. Idiot. >According to the second one, Lancer had the lead and he then evened out the field. Yet you said Saber was the one with the advantage and was leveling up the field. Lancer had the lead then gave up the lead. Not to even out the field, but to achieve another goal. Saber then had the advantage, and yes, she then levels the field. >This is a clear contradiction. More like you are a clear retard.
>>135771742 >Grand servants are the strongesr sevants of each class But on several occasions Arthur/Aturia has been referrred to as probably the strongest Saber possible. Who else could be Grand Saber? who else than Gilgamesh could be grand Archer? who else than Herakles could be grand Berserker?
>>135771950 Insults are not ad hominems, you oblivious twit. This is an ad hominem: "you are gay and therefore you are wrong". This is not an ad hominem: "you are wrong, here is why, also you are gay".
>>135771978 >>This is a clear contradiction. >More like you are a clear retard. Claiming I'm a retard doesn't disprove my claim that you're contradicting yourself. This is an ad hominem. Also, you're gay.
>>135772191 I disproved your claim earlier. As you have proven, you cannot read. >Those are not mutually exclusive, you fuck. Lancer gave up his lead, but not for honor's sake alone. Idiot. To prove this, read the circumstances of him breaking Gae Buidhe. He declares his intentions freely. You will find no passages exclaiming it was so Saber could fight him at full force. >Lancer had the lead then gave up the lead. Not to even out the field, but to achieve another goal. See aforementioned. >Saber then had the advantage, and yes, she then levels the field. Already proven that with direct quotes.
Thus we can conclude there is no contradiction, and as an aside, you are retarded.
the problem with fate is that its never about who is the most powerful, its always about who got the most luckiest, who planned the most, in a world where magic is real shit like Guns, Explosives and snipers still beat magic in most circumstances except those super god regeneration heroes which I wonder if Biological or Gass weapons would work on them .
>>135772951 Early on Nasu decided that he wanted a clash between Noble Phantasm to be a clash of concepts, rather than just a value of power and it's much more interesting that way. You can explain GoB vs UBW as UBW being faster, but you can also explain it as one who has all weapons in the world vs one who creates a world of weapons and that sounds like a more satisfying justification.
>>135773511 Its easier to understand that GoB is better inherently; after all it has all the greatest shit, it costs no mana to spam, and it doesn't just have weapons or swords, rather it has all things in its vault.
But as long as UBW surpasses it in one sense while the RM is up, it can effectively disable it entirely due to compatibility in an interesting way.
Its not the guy who has all swords vs the guy who can create all swords; rather its the guy who has all things in general vs the guy who can only create swords, but it just so happens he creates them a bit faster than the other guy can pull them out, so he can entirely invalidate the other guy's ability within the short term enough to seal a victory.
Even if you have all the shit in the world, if you can't call upon any of it, you might be helpless.
>>135773736 Jesus did participate in conflict though, he kicked jews out of churches.
Matthew 21:12 >And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
>>135773827 More accurately, he would never participate in the Holy Grail War conflict. A chalice that satisfies the greed of man, fueled by the violent murder of your opponents? He'd be disgusted at the concept. Fate/Extra CCC notes the very idea of a Holy Grail is un-christian. That is because it is actually an adoption of a pagan relic, the Cauldron of Dagda. The earliest versions of the "holy grail" was a wide and deep saucer that flows with happiness and food.
>>135774022 Alice has been summoned outside of the Mooncell though, she is an official servant, you can't just chalk it up to Mooncell anymore.
>>135773833 Lot of children throughout the ages all read a story, give it worship and belief. After a few hundred years the story comes to life you can say, and something akin to a miniature divine spirit it created.
Really you can just call it a living reality marble though. It is the dreams of children who read its story throughout the ages though. Its the book itself come to life in a sense, the story itself, not Alice the character only.
We've had stranger servants.
>>135774083 People always try to say that NR is supposed to be any story, or something. But her entries do say she's mainly just Alice in Wonderland, she is basically just the book Alice in Wonderland.
>Nursery Rhyme is not an actual hero, but the general term for a picture book that actually exists. >As it accepted the dreams of many children, this genre that is deeply loved in England was established as a single concept, turning into a Servant that is "a hero of the children". >Later, something that became the groundwork for bringing forth the celebrated writer Lewis Carroll.
>>135774842 >People always try to say that NR is supposed to be any story, or something. But her entries do say she's mainly just Alice in Wonderland, she is basically just the book Alice in Wonderland. Says she's mainly the work of Lewis Carroll. Not just Alice in Wonderland. You can't forget the Jabberwock. And the mome raths outgrabe.
>>135775069 Alice reads a passage of "Jabberwocky" in Alice in Wonderland, she is puzzled and puts it out of her mind. >>135775106 Actually she is the book and the book is the NP. "She" is a noble phantasm who is a servant. The appearance of a girl is just a mirror of her master in F/E, I don't think it even gets explained in F/GO (which is why her first stage is literally a floating book)
That'd be Gilles de Montmorency-Laval, baron of Pays de Retz, or Gilles de Rais for short. A commander of the french side of the Hundred Years War and ally of Jeanne D'Arc. Later a psychopath and child rapist.
>>135776174 A mix of the two would be good, especially in formal occasions I'd imagine she'd want to at least try to look like an adult woman to get Shirou's attention, and then loli clothes in casual settings
>>135776570 Yes, it's possible it was false accusations. It was valid in Type-Moon though. However, even so in Type-Moon, he was executed not for justice, but because the church wanted his land and riches. The crimes were merely convenience to that goal. It annoys him to no end.
That's really not how Fate works so much; there's no "main" world-line, nor is there "Well this is canon, and this is slightly less canon". I mean even in F/SN you have at least three main world-lines, and twenty or so odd world-lines that come out of each main world-line.
Extra is just as much of an alternate world line as Heaven's Feel is to Unlimited Blade Works in the end, and Apocrypha is just as much of an alternate world-line to them as mentioned. Everything factors in just the same under the Kaleidescope as "Something changed to allow this to happen".
None are more or less canon in any sense to any of the others, rather everything is alternate world-lines, where one thing caused a difference.
>>135776740 You know what I mean Stay night -> Hollow Ataraxia -> Zero are the originals
Sure 2nd True magic as much as you want, but you can never touch any of the Extra games and get everything out of the mainline trilogy. Meanwhile, the Extra games assume you are familiar to some degree with at the very least Stay Night, if not also the other two
>>135779246 She gets stronger based on money, and drinks all the time, but she does honor contracts seriously. Whether the master that summons her is good or evil, she doesn't care, she'll just change her style to meet their style, since she's flexible like Karna. She likes greed but she has poor compatibility with Gilgamesh, since Drake likes money that you blow through quickly and have fun with, while also buying supplies while you're at it, not an inexhaustible supply. She eats through money in the same way as Rin, its just here today and tomorrow its gone.
He'd probably just see her as another Taiga, and she probably would get along with Taiga.
Drake's NP quest in G/O is just her getting revenge against Blackbeard for calling her an old lady, or a Christmas Cake or something.
>>135768948 >he's the most god damned powerful and wealthy being on the planet. >he's the most god damned powerful and wealthy being on the planet. >he's the most god damned powerful being on the planet.
this seems like a good place to ask what would happen if two reality marbles were cast in the same place at the same time? would they cancel each other out, create some weird hodgepodge of the two, or would the person with the greater autism succeed in casting their reality marble?
>>135787703 I didn't mean her directly dying during every single route, just never getting a happy ending. Spending your last year in Shirou's householdharem desperately trying to win his attention isn't exactly great either.
>>135770474 >>135769862 What does an EX rank stat mean for a servant? How does it differ from A or A+? I'm talking about actual stats, not the NP ranking. As far as I know only Drake and True Assassin (F/SF) have that characteristic
>>135788307 >no principles of any kind This is the man who regards Zouken as scum and still possess a moral compass. He helps Shirou and Rin out way too much in Heaven's Feel to be described has having no principles.
>>135788680 He regards Zouken as scum because his character disgusts him, not because he deems Zouken's actions "immoral". I mean just look at what he did to the orphans (which wasn't even necessary) to keep Gilgamesh in this world. Before meeting Gil he considered himself to be deeply flawed and wanted to "rectify" his mentality but now he accepted that he only found joy in other people's suffering and there really isn't a set of moral values that you can apply to such a character trait. Or perhaps I just missed it, in which case, what would you say are his principles?
>>135788237 Because that is what it means for Noble Phantasms and Skills. It is a different case for parameters. For example, Enuma Elish is only EX for tearing apart the world, an attribute that doesn't increase its damage. Damage wise, it's only A++. But because it does a weird thing, it's EX.
>>135788763 It's actually harder to describe than I thought. The man actually never lies, even if it'd help him out. He straight out told Shirou he was a master in Heaven's Feel.
He performs his duties as a healer as you'd expect and, although he's not really the most impartial supervisor, he does actually explain the war for Shirou.
I always took Kotomine hating Zouken to be because Zouken shows no signs of remorse for doing evil things, whereas Kotomine does feel some guilt but he doesn't show it most of the time, but that could just be my interpretation.
>>135789026 >never lies Isn't that because he's a man of faith? Which is very contradictory I suppose, but being a priest and all.
>Kotomine does feel some guilt Does he really? I don't think so. He does absolutely atrocious things and enjoys it. He acknowledges the fact that he's fucked, but he also accepts that the only way for him to enjoy life is to derive pleasure from other people's suffering. He never feels remorse as much as he feels regret during situations like his father's death (and he just regretted not being able to kill him himself)
>>135789370 >Does he really? I don't think so. He does absolutely atrocious things and enjoys it. He acknowledges the fact that he's fucked, but he also accepts that the only way for him to enjoy life is to derive pleasure from other people's suffering. He did feel extreme guilt about this in Fate/Zero, practically going into a rage when he realized what a monster he is at his core. By Fate/Stay Night's time he's cooled down and just wants to know if it's alright for him to be this way in the eyes of god, showing that he's still ultimately not comfortable with it but also can't do anything about it.
>>135789370 Well, an evil person being a man of faith is really contradictory. It's the fact he's holding himself to those guidelines despite considering himself evil that shows that he has some principles.
>>135784420 No it'll be a Pit Fiend situation Grand Archer Shirou's Noble Phantasm is summoning ANOTHER GRAND ARCHER, and it's random who it is, it could another him and stack the NP or a Grand Archer Gil
>>135789778 Wasn't that before meeting Gilgamesh? After their meeting he accepts what he is. Also, when the grail starts raining down the black mud in Fuyuki by the end of F/Z, he's enjoying it more than he's ever enjoyed anything before. I've always been under the impression that he just accepted his nature and although he knew it was wrong, he chose the path of egoism.
>>135789794 They're never used to their full potential because if they were, there would be no story. True Assassin in Strange Fake is probably the most broken servant if only because of his EX-rank presence concealment.
>>135789902 >Wasn't that before meeting Gilgamesh? After their meeting he accepts what he is. No, but Gil does help him get over it. >Also, when the grail starts raining down the black mud in Fuyuki by the end of F/Z, he's enjoying it more than he's ever enjoyed anything before. And he was freaking the fuck out over it. He was enjoying it to the max, but was absolutely enraged at that same fact. >I've always been under the impression that he just accepted his nature and although he knew it was wrong, he chose the path of egoism. He never fully accepted it, which is why he's searching for the answer in Fate/Stay Night. He's conflicted if it's okay for an evil person like himself to exist.
>>135789873 >he has some principles Those principles are really only applied to himself, though. He wanted to find a meaning to his existence and now that he's realized that the suffering of others was his reason to be (more or less), he's just doing his thing. If he had principles that fell under morality/ethics, wouldn't he stop himself from committing such acts and perhaps kill himself?
>>135789794 They are never used correctly and Hassan is a shit-tier servant anyway. If an actually good heroic spirit like Heracles was summoned in that class then it would be a considerable threat. We still haven't seen what the Hassan in Strange Fake is capable of, but I'm almost certain that he will just be killed off without accomplishing anything just like every other Hassan before him.
>>135789960 >Gil does help him get over it About that, I still don't understand why Gil is Chaotic Good. His behavior and personality make him either neutral evil or chaotic neutral. >He was enjoying it to the max, but was absolutely enraged at that same fact I might've skipped over this. Since he's a man of faith, why would he not prevent himself from doing it? He's not insane, so it's not like he's physically incapable of it. >He's conflicted if it's okay for an evil person like himself to exist Again, religion says it probably isn't
>>135789993 >Hassan is a shit-tier servant F/SF Hassan seems to be on another level than the others. Also, if Kerry had had a Hassan, he'd have won. It's about how you use Assassin, since they're shit in direct combat.
>>135789962 >wouldn't he stop himself from committing such acts and perhaps kill himself? At the very least, I can answer why he didn't kill himself.
There's the scene where he reminsense on his wife, and from what I remember, he says that the only reason he didn't kill himself was because his wife committed suicide to help him, and he wanted to try and show that her death wasn't completely pointless by living. Also, besides that, suicide is a sin in religion.
>>135790113 >I might've skipped over this. Since he's a man of faith, why would he not prevent himself from doing it? He's not insane, so it's not like he's physically incapable of it. You can't just.. will yourself to not enjoy something. The sensations of pleasure will respond without conscious input. >Again, religion says it probably isn't He's conflicted. Being christian, he believes the all-knowing God made everyone with a plan, so if he was made broken, there had to be a reason for it. He can't un-break himself (he tried really hard), so he's just going forward broken. (It'd be against christian theology for a human to be made incapable of salvation)
>>135789993 Hassan is an amazing hero if he wasn't forced to brawl to the death with six heroes who are better at fighting than he is. They pretty much agree that if he was in Fate/Apocrypha's great holy grail war, then nobody could get anything done because they'd have to be on guard against Hassan at all times.
>>135768035 >>135767576 Even Fate side Material does not state Shirou uses Gradation Air. It just rephrases Rins mistakes.
UBW looks like a combination of Reinforcement, Gradation Air, Analyze, and a few more magecrafts. Rin can use Gradation Air. Shirou uses something that looks like Gradation Air, but it leaves permanent objects if they are not Marked as Copies(I.E NPs). Gradation Air is unable to leave behind real lasting physical objects without a anchor of mana.
>>135790452 "At any rate, since Gradation Air is just supposed to be a short-term rental of the item's outward appearance, you can see why the version used by Shirou and Archer is completely ridiculous. It's no wonder that Rin wanted to kill him when she saw his shed." >"the version used by Shirou" Not "the ability that is similar but a different thing entirely" Not "the application of Unlimited Blade Works that people confuse for Gradation Air" It's a different version of the same spell, so your fanon is wrong.
>>135790514 Rin only has 1 or 2 scenes where she states she is wrong. As direct passerby scenes. She has 4 or 7 scenes in the VN where she states what she thinks about Shirous Magecraft. Its obvious the fucking side material written by secondaries is going to turn out somewhat wrong. There is more shit like that if you look for it.
>>135790791 Fate/Side Material was written by Nasu himself as a sort of glossary about Fate/Stay Night. It was literally part of Fate/Stay Night's original release, as in, it came in the box. It is not the interpretation of a character, but the author's words.
>>135790888 You should learn Japanese. Intent is done differently in the language. I.E "you can see why the version used by Shirou and Archer is completely ridiculous" could be rephrased as "Version used by GARCHAR does not fit any criteria for Gradation Air". There is other cases like this trough out most of FSN.
>>135791048 Sure, if that were even the case. " わずか数分間の、外見だけのレンタルな訳であるから、士郎・アーチャーの投影がどれだけデタラメかは 言うまでもない。凜が士郎の土蔵を覗き見て殺意を覚えたのも当然。 " Basically is just "Shirou and Archer are bullshit", not "Shirou and Archer use a different spell entirely". Nasu clarifies how Shirou's magecraft works in Fate/Complete Material III too. He is using those actual spells. (The description of him using Sword-element Reinforcement) It's not hard to understand.
>>135788237 Isn't X more like "How good is it?" where the answer is just a paradoxical "yes", being always able to fulfill that task no matter how difficult it is, like the paragon of that ability. Enuma Elish is EX because no matter the form of reality it goes agaisn't, it always wins agaisn't it. Instead of having damage 1000, the damage is unresistable and does 100% of the enemy max HP without exception. It can only be countered by something of it's own magnitude, e.g. Avalon which is the ultimate avatar of safety, protection and utopia.
>>135789300 I think even Nasu said so himself. Arc fights on the opponent's powerlevel, but it's not Gil that's strong, it's his arsenal.
>>135791450 >Gil is actually a good fighter He's far below most other heroes. Artoria, Lancelot, Cuchulainn, Heracles etc would obliterate him in melee if he didn't keep pulling out new weapons to keep them off their footing.
>>135792256 He is a good guy but in a chaotic way, like if he has to sacrifice the entire world for a place with no mongrels he will do it, that is chaotic, also chaotic personality, he will go to extremes and have chaotic reactions etc.
>>135791450 >But there are several EX NPs which aren't that strong. They excel at their purpose. If you had an EX level NP of "making coffee" then that's the thing it would be perfect at, but that ability itself isn't that amazing.
>>135792445 >basically a bipolar sociopath with anger issues and delusions of grandeur He is a king of the age of the gods.
>Show me one good thing he's ever done He spared Waver's life because Waver showed him his courage in a respectful and non coward way.
>Yeah that basically confirms what I just said Back then there were less humans and one could discern between trash people and non trash people, now that the world is plagued and has a lot of humans with mixed and sick ideologies and minds is better to just wipe them off and start a new.
>>135792660 >a king of the age of the gods Still behaves like an unstable manchild. Also, he was a shitty king. >spared Waver's life Hardly a "good action". >wipe them off and start a new That's not really chaotic good, it's more chaotic neutral if anything. My point is, Gil isn't a good guy. He might not be as evil as Kirei but he clearly doesn't give a fuck about morality as long as he gets to retain his status.
>>135792832 >an unstable manchild >shitty king Your answer.
>Hardly a "good action". He is a king, for him, summoned in a war where everyone must kill each other to reach success, he spared the life of one of his enemies, while Kiritsugu didn't spare happywheels life at all even if he was out of the war permanently.
>he clearly doesn't give a fuck about morality Fate/stay night Gil lost some of that because he got in touch with the mud, and became more of a mortal, human, humans have flaws and so he gained some of those.
>>135793042 Being harmful for humanity isn't the definition of evil. He's evil because he's the biggest asshole in the series >>135793033 Kiritsugu didn't spare Kayneth for an understandable reason. Gil spared Waver out of a misplaced sense of superiority and because of some royal honor meaningless bullshit. He's no better than Arturia about that except he's a hypocrite
>>135793130 >Kiritsugu didn't spare Kayneth for an understandable reason. He didn't spare Kayneth's life to teach Saber a "lesson" and that is all, cruel shit.
>Gil spared Waver out of a misplaced sense of superiority and because of some royal honor meaningless bullshit He is a king, get the point already anon, he is a KING, he has the mentality of a KING (of the god era on top of that), he has like all the rights to wreck havoc on current humanity after seeing how shitty it has become.
>>135792660 >He is a king of the age of the gods. But it's mentioned that his younger self and current self were completely different people. >Back then there were less humans and one could discern between trash people and non trash people, now that the world is plagued and has a lot of humans with mixed and sick ideologies and minds is better to just wipe them off and start a new. If anything that's neutral and not good. >>135792914 Not really. Nearly all evil characters think what their doing is justifiable, even if that means valuing your own existence and pleasures way above anyone else's.
>>135793293 Not only. He had basically destroyed Kayneth's reason to live at that point in order to reach the grail. Letting him live would be cruel for Kayneth and dangerous for Kenny (because a guy like Kayneth would want revenge, especially since Kiritsugu couldn't harm him directly)
Yeah sure he's a king, I know that, but it doesn't make him good. He didn't even care about his subjects.
>>135793443 When are you going to understand that subjective morality isn't relevant? Even if he believes he's good, he's still a shitbag Gilles believes he's good, but he's an insane psychopath, this example alone should make it clear >>135793487 He stood against the gods because they annoyed him personally.
>>135793638 Exactly, so there is no use talking about absolute good or evil, nor from the person own standpoint. Since as you just said, most people think that they are doing the right thing, or at the very least it is justifiable.
So the question remains, who is the one holding the moral compass and deciding the alignments?
>>135793600 >if Gil does a thing most people would call evil then he is still good because he believes himself to be good >if I do a thing most people would call evil then I'm evil despite me believing I'm good as long as I'm not Gil. Are you trying to say that Gil is the one deciding everyone's alignment?
>>135794195 Yes it does. Presence concealment A+ or more is broken and someone skilled like Kiritsugu could dispatch all other masters in a day with Assassin. No need to confront servants. Even Gil would be helpless since he can't use GoB when he's just reliant on independent action.
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