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Explain to me what made Bleach turn from...
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Explain to me what made Bleach turn from a promising successor of Dragonball into the mess that it currently is.
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>>135705922
Dragon Ball was a mess too. So, mission accomplished.
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>>135705922
Kubo realised he can create fights that cover a whole volume in which nothing happens and no one cares to stop him.
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>>135705999
>Dragon Ball was a mess too
True, but at if you read the actual manga, fights at least feel like they're progressing from chapter to chapter.
Why does feel Bleach feel like less of a slog than DB?
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>>135705922
Not ending when it should have.

Much like a lot of other series. And DB itself.
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>>135705922
>a promising successor of Dragonball

It was never a successor to Dragonball. If anything, it's the successor to Saint Seiya and has much more in common with it than it does Dragonball.
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DB is even worse than Bleach.
At least Bleach has qt's, cool abilities and /fa/ as fuck uniforms
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>>135705922
Because he knows battle shonens make money
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>>135706052
The structure of DB is straighforward, traditional. MC comes and beats the villain. Nothing else. And that's enough because Toriyama was fucking good with fights.

Bleach was like that at first too. That's why SS is a cool arc, because the premise is simple: MC and his friends running against the clock to save their friend. After that, Kubo has become too pretentious. Naruto had the same problem.
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>>135706248
You seem to be confusing DBZ with the entirety of Dragonball, and you're probably from /v/.
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I never got the stupid retcon that people could fly in the living world and not the soul society then suddenly "Fuck it. Everyone can fly in soul society now."

Everything after saving Rukia is shit.
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>>135705922
Your inability to appreciate
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>>135706293
>I never got the stupid retcon that people could fly in the living world and not the soul society then suddenly "Fuck it. Everyone can fly in soul society now."

Literally never happened. Sternritter can do it because their powers manipulate spirit matter directly, whereas Shinigami can only do it indirectly. You're a fucking retard.
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>>135706425
In the Soul Society arc noone could fly. Why Ichigo needed the wing and cape from Yoruichi.
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>>135706540
>In the Soul Society arc noone could fly. Why Ichigo needed the wing and cape from Yoruichi.

No, you retard, they couldn't "fly" (it's just air-walking with reishi btw) within the walls of the Seireitei, because the barrier created by the Sekki-Sekki walls prevented it (without the use of a special tool, like the one Yoruichi provided Ichigo).

Air-walking had been a thing since Chapter 1; we see Ichigo do it while fighting his first Hollow.
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>>135706540
Using that tool requires no effort.

It's like saving your batteries for the fight instead of using them on the way.

Also it's cool, so you're wrong regardless.
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>>135706271
No I'm not. The whole series has a very simple narrative. The writing is not perfect, of course, but never tries to be more than a "hero x villain" thing. The first phase is lighter, but still is Goku beating bad guys in cool fights.
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>>135706608
Like I said, they could fly/air walk in the living world and not in soul society/sereitei but in later arcs that was disregarded and flying could happen in soul society and huece mundo.
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>>135705922
Too many irrelevant characters.
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>>135705922


>mess

this is the best arc ever in bleach

youre one of the typical uber leet otaku fags who hates anything remotely popular arent you?
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Posting best girl
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>>135706719
Seireitei is just one relatively small part of the entire Soul Society. You can fly in Soul Society but not in Seireitei/ Royal Palace, at least not using the traditional method.

>but in later arcs that was disregarded and flying could happen in soul society and huece mundo.

There was never a rule stating "no flying in Hueco Mundo", not any part of Soul Society that isn't Seireitei.

You seem to lack a basic comprehension of the topic we're discussing.
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>>135705922

The bitchslap revelations that he seeded at the start of the fucking manga are brilliant.
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>>135705922
too many characters
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>>135706762
It was. Insane Kubota twists that were actually story related shit. Now we are back to nonstopdrawn out fight that are nothing more than random fucking powers that barely early make sense.
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>>135707049
If you were actually paying attention, you'd notice there is a lot of relevant story information being woven into the most recent fights, especially in relation to the Soul King.
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>>135706248
>Kubo has become too pretentious

That's literally not the issue with Bleach. This is from coming from someone who still follows it for god knows what reason but the main issues that affect it are:

The release schedule, Bleach is fine in volume form but is a slog from week to week because Kubo enjoys his reaction images and setup panels too much.

The predictable fight patterns, Bleach is basically turn-based combat aside from a handful of fights and it's basically whoever has the most trump cards wins.

The fucking asspull powers every goddamn time. Character is about to die but they suddenly whip out their "full" power until they're about to die again then they use their secret technique and either win or lose depending on who they're facing.

General powerlevel nonsense. And the fact that almost all side characters can keep up despite peaking out in ability centuries prior to the start of the series.

Whatever the fuck Ichigo is and the biweekly reveal that he's got more junk shoved in his body than Mayuri's got up his ass.

The interesting characters rarely get the focus and when they do it's only for a chapter or even part of a chapter before it switches to something else.

And there are other glaring issues but those are the most recurring ones Bleach has. Kubo's attempt at deepening the plot is hit or miss but more often than not it's entertaining in one way or another. Best chapters were when Aizen was in his prime and doing his thing. The worst weekly ones are the fights, this always has been and always will be because of how much Kubo likes to try and set the mood.

The Bleach threads are usually fun too.
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>>135707361
There are so many contradictions and blatant misinformation here that I could barely justify a reply to it.
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>>135705922
>promising successor of Dragonball
When was it this?

Of the big 3 it was OP more than anything and it's exceeded dragon ball in all categories.
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>>135706063
>its obviously a successor to YYH
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>>135705922
Should have ended at the Arrancar arc. It was never a potential successor of Dragon Ball though.
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>>135708167
>congratulations you special snowflake you
>thanks for sharing all your wisdom
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>>135708167
faggot
>bleach is the best hurdur
>2016
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>>135705922
Editor-san released the leash that was holding back Kubo's madness.
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>>135711425
YYH has an actual successor, it's called Hunter X Hunter. In terms of how battles work, Saint Seiya is a much better comparison to Bleach.
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>>135711522
>>135711541
Here's your (You)
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>>135707361
>The fucking asspull powers every goddamn time. Character is about to die but they suddenly whip out their "full" power until they're about to die again then they use their secret technique and either win or lose depending on who they're facing.
It honestly amazes me how this literally got worse over time
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>>135709148
>and it's exceeded dragon ball in all categories.
Except having an anime
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>>135711834
>Character is about to die but they suddenly whip out their "full" power until they're about to die again then they use their secret technique and either win or lose depending on who they're facing.

How does this not apply at least in some way to every other Battle Shounen in existence? Seems to be more of a genre complaint than a specific complaint about Bleach.
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>>135711779
Hunter X Hunter isn't angsty enough in my opinion.
Did Ruroini Kenshin ever have any spiritual successors?
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>>135707361
>That's literally not the issue with Bleach.
The decompression of the narrative is one example of how Kubo became pretentious. He thinks he's a fucking poet.
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>>135705922
Kubo's inability to kill off shinigami except the old man and his repetedness.
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>>135706805
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>>135712000
Because the amount of times it happens during every single battle.
Yeah, it's already repetitive in other Shounen shows, but Bleach takes it to a whole different level.
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Saw it more of a successor of Yu Yu Hakusho than Dragon Ball since most fans always compared the two. Bleach never lived up to my hype like YYH did.
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>>135712439
You'd need to explain further or use specific examples from the manga to make your point.

I can understand if you've seen enough battle shounen to know when a trope is being overplayed, but cliches aren't always a bad thing if the execution is done well. I think Kenpachi using Kendo against Nnoitra is my favorite example of this in Bleach.
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>>135712536
>Saw it more of a successor of Yu Yu Hakusho than Dragon Ball since most fans always compared the two.

That's because most fans have never read/watched Saint Seiya.
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>>135712669
This. Kubo is the new Kurumada.
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>>135705922
not a successor to yu yu hakusho?
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>>135713279
2007 called, they want their meme back
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>>135713304
tell them to call back later. I'm busy.
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>>135713279
The sad thing is that the "Bleach cycle" now matches Naruto and One Piece more accurately than it does Bleach.
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>>135713560
I wouldnt know Naruto. dont follow it but think they in some kind of filler hell.

But how does OP fit into that?
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>>135713638
Not really trying to get off topic here, but I didn't think I'd have to explain how One Piece is an endless cycle of 1)travel to place 2)meet nakama 3)fight bad guys 4)go to next place, repeat ad nauseum.
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>>135712084
Seriously? Did you drop HxH before CA arc, with the character deaths and suicide attempt and breakdown of friendship and all that angst?
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>>135712633

Well, lets see here, last month we had the nigger bird, he used some kind of godlike power we never seen before, even kyouraku bankai was not enough to kill him.

And what is kubo solution to this battle? Asspuling some bullshit with a character that was never relevant in more than 600 chapters.

People were rushing to make theories about how "deep" the plot was when kubo pulled the whole "zangetsu is juha back" shenanigan, but you cant defend nanao and her sword who can kill gods.

Nanao getting a sword that just happens to be effective against this enemy no one has ever seen before is bad enough, the fact that the nigger bird kept making attacks despite knowing that the sword could reflect his power is even more retarded.
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hopefully we see Aizen soon.
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>>135706271
The fuck are you talkin about, DB was the same
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>>135714086
That's one example. One example alone does not prove a point.
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>>135713773
its not uncommon for a series, a shonen especially to involve; Venturing to new area, introducing new minor/side characters for a new arc, and fighting a bad guy.

you just explained the most basis structure format for progression.

Like saying all three LotR were the same cause it involved Walking to new regions, fighting orcs, meeting new parties, go on to the next region.
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>>135715386
Except by the Xth time you repeat the formula, you're going to start losing readers. Hence the steady decline in volume sales.
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>>135715386
That was a very simplified description, One Piece is even more formulaic than that. Go to new island, meet oppressed towns people and befriend them, Luffy gets stuck somewhere, Zoro fights the 2IC, Sanji fights the 3IC, Luffy arrives to fight the final boss, final boss gets beat but doesn't die, they get a new nakama and then on to the next island.

Obviously not every single arc follows this pattern but too many major arcs do, it's predictable to the point that it's boring. The series is saved by a good overarching plot but on a smaller scale it's too repetitive.
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>>135716821
it's not really about a good plot per se, a guy trying to be Pirate King isn't all that interesting in itself
what makes One Piece great is world building
the history, social/political structure, even fucking geography of its world is incredibly interesting
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>>135714086
Actually you can. The sword is what made the Soul King lost his limbs in the first place. The Ise clan is most likely one of the five noble families. The ancestors of the five noble families together with Ichibee and their family weapons, which all are actually connected to the Soul King somehow, to disperse his powers into all directions, which gave birth to Pernida etc, so he could be weak enough to be imprisoned in crystal prison and act as lynchpin. Also the Nanao's surname Ise is actually named after a real life place and line of pristess which are connected to the regelia of Japan and the Yata mirror.
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>>135717311
The history of Bleach and Soul Society is extremely interesting, with the creation and story of the Soul King, how the First Blood War began and what happened there. Even the world of living is actually very different from the real world.
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>>135717311
I agree, I think Oda does world building very well in One Piece. But the arc set-up is even more repetitive than Bleach.

>>135717548
Unfortunately a lot of people miss these details, because they don't actually read Bleach and make assumptions about it based on other people's opinions...
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>>135717311
One Piece has enough strengths that I understand the appeal but for me, it's faded a lot over time. I just want something different and unexpected to happen because I love the world and characters, I can only stay entertained by the same shit for so long.
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>>135705922
Dragon Ball has a shit ton of flaws, but it's always been fun since day one and you can't deny that. Bleach is just too slow paced, the history gets way to complex way too early and the characters are not that engaging.
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i knew this thread would turn to shit the minute OP mentioned dragon ball. all of you werent even born when dragon ball aired. fucking hipsters
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I actually like Bleach more now than I used to. I think this arc can actually be the best of Bleach, especially if it turns out the Shinigami are the real enemies.
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>>135705922
Because who needs backgrounds
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>>135705922
Kubo realized that people are willing to buy this so instead of ending the manga where he originally intended he kept going?
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>>135718009
how exactly faded? the story it's basically (even tho is slow as shit) always moving and there are various mysteries to be solved
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What will Aizen do when he finds out that Ichigo killed the SK? Will he stand up?
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>>135718379
Well I just get really fucking bored during the middle section of big arcs, because it's just match up fights of no importance to the plot. Why should I care what happens when I know the strawhats will win? What's the point of even reading the fights between side characters unless I'm into the story specifically for the fights (and I'm not)? They have no lasting emotional or narrative impact, they're just there to take up space.

I like the character interactions and the comedy so usually I enjoy the beginning and end of the arc when things are building up/winding down.
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>>135717785
Yep it's really repetitive, but only when the arc begins, once the story develops it gets really interesting in every single arc. The only arc that really bored me was the Fishman Island, it only got interesting when they started talking about Poseidon.
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One piece hasan't really gotten any worse, besides the pacing. It just most probably remember the Whitebear war and Impel down the best and are using that as measuring stick. The thing is though, that both are not the norm, but Oda's best and also the cimax of the first half. It's doubtfull, that Oda can do something better or even equally good until Raftel or the Vegapunk. One Piece is still decent though, but honestly in 2015 Bleach was better. 2014 was One Piece better though, except for the Ichibee and Giselle fights. 2013 was again Bleach better and I think 2012 they were equal though.
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>>135719149
Damn, there are so many typos.
One Piece hasn't really gotten any worse actually. It's just that most probably the Whitebeard war and Impel down the best and are using that as measuring stick.he thing is though, that both are not the norm, but Oda's best and also the cimax of the first half. It's doubtful, that Oda can do something better or even equally good until the eventuell Raftel or the Vegapunk arc. One Piece is still decent though, but honestly in 2015 Bleach was better. 2014 was One Piece better though, except for the Ichibee and Giselle fights. 2013 was again Bleach better and I think in 2012 they were equal.
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Chapter this week or the next?
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>successor of Dragonball

that isn't One Piece
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The only part of Bleach I genuinely enjoyed was the very first one, before the Soul Society arc.
Never understood the appeal of it after that.
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>>135719149
One piece hasn't gotten worse because it was shit to start with.
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>>135705922
Shitty Japanese taste that voted Bleach as "uninteresting" every time it wasn't samurai.
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>>135717548
>The history of Bleach and Soul Society is extremely interesting,

Yeah man, people sure did give a shit about Nanao and her family.
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>>135717548
What? This arc only made the entire setting of Bleach less interesting and more apparent that Kubo didn't plan shit.
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>>135722655
If anything, this arc proved Kubo planned a lot of shit. You probably need to stop speedreading.
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>>135706052
DB is like simple and straightforward sex in the missionary position.

Bleach is like going drinking with Bill Cosby.
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>>135721042
That bait is too damn cheap son, come back later
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>>135722577
>>>/v/
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>>135706805
You have good taste mi familia.
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>>135711903
Dragon Ball has had six. The japs have no taste.
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>>135717548
It would help if Kubo actually expanded on these things instead of "Sternritter of the week"
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>>135717311
OP seems deep lore-wise, and I want to get into it, but everything else just seems so shit. I'm only still with Bleach because I was there at the beginning and I want to see it through.
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>>135719836
The 14th.
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>>135723254
The build is gradual. Take the Elites for example, 2/4 being actual pieces of the Soul King was something that would have made no sense if we weren't given the proper build up with Ukitake and the missing limbs.
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>>135717548
eh, i don't know, it's explained in a too episodic and chaotic way for my liking
in One Piece, instead, its a vital part of the plot, and every single arc has had its significance for the explaining of the world
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>>135723360
Ideally you should try to read many different types of manga, as well as other shounens. One piece is well liked but there are many high quality titles out there, unfortunately this isn't a rec thread
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>>135723360
You might find it grows on you, or it might not be your style. I think One Piece is one of the rare manga that gets better and better as it goes on.

The lore is decent, but what really sells me is the characters. There's gotta be thousands at this point and almost all of them are well designed and interesting enough to hold your attention for as long as they're around.
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>>135705922
promising successor of Dragonball
What the literal fuck.
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>>135705922
Lol wut? the planet busting stuff was more present in OP than Bleach. at some point Bleach was the most realistic shounen out there in therms of power level and shit like that.
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>>135705922
Saving Rukia arc is one of the best arcs of any of the big 3. If it had ended right after then that would've been fine.
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>>135724070
People say the same shit about the zabuza arc. I don't really get it though, it's not like the manga really got worse or less interesting at that point. Unless you're talking about the anime, in which case you have no business trying to discuss anything.
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>>135724350
Usually I see people say the Chunin Exam is when Naruto peaked. I would go further and say the Rescue Gaara arc was the last peak before it dove straight into the depths of hell with the the Sasuke arc that followed.
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charas deciding if they should share their name or not
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>>135725803
only three naruto arcs worth watching are; Chuunin Exams, Sasuke Retrieval, and Gaara Rescue.

Honorable mentions go to Hidan and Pain arcs
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>>135705922
>a promising successor of Dragonball

who the fuck actually thought this?

It never crossed my mind, I might have compared early Bleach to a part of Yu Yu Hakusho, but that's it
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