>>135711009 SAZ is probably the best when it comes to Misaki. There's a few other good works with her such as Digital Lover. Unfortunately we probably won't get more of her until Railgun S3 or something similar.
>>135713679 I'll take the bait but just this time anon >Manipulative Only with people whom she feels could potentially threaten her, which stems from the fact that she has difficulties trusting people (understandable since she can see in everyone's minds and memories) >violates free will She violates the free will of people who either hurt her/want to hurt her, are planning something that could hurt others, or when she's certain that it won't have any consequences on them if they're innocent. She stated and proved with her actions that whenever she uses her power on someone, she'll take responsibility for that person's well-being. >mind-rapes I don't think this word means what you think it means. If it does, give me an example >fucked up She's doing pretty well for a level 5, not to mention her power is probably the most difficult to deal with psychologically for the user. She's arguably the sanest level 5 encountered so far barring Aihana (yes Mikoto has issues)
Too bad it's not always people who she considers a threat. For example, Misaka isn't a threat but she fucks with her for amusement. And she minds controls strangers, friends, foes, and school mates alike for her own schemes (Daihaseisai what she did with Misaka friends).
Taking responsibility means nothing when they haven't consent in the first place, which is vast majority of the time she uses her powers on people. People whom she controls don't remember what they did for or her anything, so there are missing memories because she tampers with them. Not being able to be in control and aware of what you've done in your life because someone else uses your body and mind (usually) without consent is fucked up.
>sanest The hell she is. Having her power and what she has done makes her not eligible for most sane. Gunha is the most same, followed by Misaka.
>>135714353 >Gunha is the most sane Opinion discarded. Gunha is crazy as fuck, in a fun way but still batshit. Misaka is completely neurotic. Misaki is paranoid most of the time, justifiably. She's the sanest.
>Misaka isn't a threat but she fucks with her for amusement Yeah because she knows it won't have any effect anyway because of the electric barrier. Are you so much of a moralfag that you consider that kind of playing around as evil and "immoral"? >minds controls strangers, friends, foes, and school mates alike Give me one example of a substantial, non-trivial use of her power which wasn't justified by the situation. I'll be waiting.
>what she did with Misaka friends It was outright stated that doing that actually prevented them from being targeted and getting killed, you imbecile
>Taking responsibility means nothing Yes it does. Taking responsibility for your actions means that you tend to avoid immorality
>they haven't consent We still don't know if the members of her clique (and that's a lot of people) are consenting, but it's highly likely that they are, given that her power is known and that they stick around her even when not under her influence.
Again, give me examples of her using her power in an unjustified and damaging way against innocent people. You can't
>>135714353 >Gunha is the most same, followed by Misaka. All the level 5s are crazy for different reasons and they all have enough power that if they get angry or lose control for any reason can kill without a second thought.
>>135714602 >Gunha is crazy as fuck Wrong. Gunha is driven by hot-blooded male passion. Eccentric and a bit dumb, but far from the state of mad, insane, or deranged. >Misaka is completely neurotic No she isn't. She had a couple of mental breakdown at most and for good reasons. That doesn't make her completely neurotic.
>Yeah because she knows it won't have any effect anyway because of the electric barrier. Not talking about using it directly on Misaka, but messing with her by using other people. >Are you so much of a moralfag that you consider that kind of playing around as evil and "immoral"? Using people's body and mind without consent isn't playing around. >Give me one example of a substantial, non-trivial use of her power which wasn't justified by the situation I love how you have to carefully word saying substantial and non-trivial. As if using her powers whenever she wants for fun or for gain isn't already fucked up. The first instance in the library brings to mind when she control everyone in the library just to pressure Misaka. Or for combative purposes, the students and heroes she used during the Halation arc, even trying to fuck Misaka over at one point. The silly and comical nature doesn't change the fact it was still dangerous.
>It was outright stated that doing that actually prevented them from being targeted and getting killed Excuses. They wouldn't be in the mess if it weren't for Misaki.
>Taking responsibility for your actions means that you tend to avoid immorality Doesn't help the fact no consent means violating free will.
>but it's highly likely that they are It's arguable for her inner clique, but you can't say the same to random people she takes over.
>unjustified and damaging way against innocent people. You can't Learn what violating people's mind and free will means, Misakifag.
>>135715651 Literally your whole argument is based on the premise that she controls people with her powers even though that's how it's supposed to work. You're sounding like a tumblrina that yells "no consent!". Your gripe is that she manipulates them, even though she never actually does anything bad to the people she controls. She even makes sure that the people she controls are safe. The Railgun manga and NT11 shows that. You can't use Agitate Halation as an example because all of the Level 5s were using their powers against the students and heroes, why does it make her any more evil than them?
>Excuses. They wouldn't be in the mess if it weren't for Misaki. She was the one trying to save them in the first place. She was the one stopping Gensei and MEMBER from going after the Sisters and Misaka behind the scenes before Misaka even knew what was going on.
>>135716438 >even though that's how it's supposed to work Doesn't make it okay. Misaki is a manipulative bitch and that is made worse because she is the type who schemes and messes with people. She's not the innocent type who happens to have a power that violates people by nature and doesn't wish to use it for personal gain.
You can make excuses and whiteknight her by saying she doesn't bring harm physical harm to those she controls, but hat doesn't change the fact she controls people against their will. If the people she controlled was able to remember everything when under her control, then it would be completely fuck up and you know it. Mental scars would be the least consequence that would occur. It hardly makes it better that she erases the missing memory gap. That just proves she has to or else she would bring too much harm to the people she controls.
>You can't use Agitate Halation as an example because all of the Level 5s were using their powers against the students and heroes, why does it make her any more evil than them? This isn't about other Level 5s. What Misaki does is fucked up because it violates body and mind for the people she controls. Having your body taken over to do shit you don't want is one of the worst things that could happen.
>She was the one trying to save them in the first place. Misaki is still the cause to got them into the mess in the first place. More over, Misaki is wasn't even certain that they would be killed. In the end, everyhing she does is to ensure success of her plans. It's a coincidence she took thought to prevent possible deaths because she doesn't want her plans to go awry.
>>135717171 >manipulative bitch >schemes You seem to be confusing intelligence and malevolence She doesn't have inherently bad intentions and simply wishes to preserve herself and the people she cares about like everyone else. To say that is wrong is hypocrisy. Unlike most other female characters in the series, she actually makes coherent decisions and plans out her actions. That doesn't make her a bad person
>doesn't bring physical harm Nor does she bring them mental harm until proven otherwise. She hasn't been shown to outright delete big portions of memory from innocent people when said people weren't in danger. Most of her "interventions" are quick and inoffensive (eg. when she was in the library with Misaka) >she has to or else she would bring too much harm to the people she controls Nice headcanon. >This isn't about other Level 5s Yes it is, partly, stop avoiding relevant arguments, you're conveniently leaving out a lot of other characters whose abilities put Misaki's actions into perspective. >is fucked up because it violates body and mind Tumblr is right this way. This is your only argument and you keep repeating it, when it doesn't actually have any substance. Next you're going to compare Mental Out to physical rape to "prove" it's immoral? >Misaki is still the cause She's not the only catalyst for the incident, again you're scapegoating. Even then, it doesn't matter. How does that change the fact that she used her powers only to save their lives? >wasn't even certain that they would be killed Not true. It was almost guaranteed to happen if she hadn't intervened. >everything she does is to ensure the success of her plans Which is bad in what way? Are you saying that good people always act irrationally and never plan out their actions carefully? Also, there are counterexamples to that, such as Touma.
>it's a coincidence Headcanon >because she doesn't want her plans to go awry Who wants their projects to go wrong? Aleister is an exception
>>135717171 So I'm right, literally your whole argument is "They didn't give consent!". Fine, call her manipulative, still doesn't change the fact she doesn't do anything of harm to them. Why would they care about what she did with them if they don't even remember it. That whole "mental scar" is just bullshit you have in your headcanon.
Can you really even blame her for always reading people's minds? Academy City is an awful place and the whole Dolly situation only amplified her paranoia. Literally the only person she trusts unconditionally is Touma.
>Misaki is still the cause to got them into the mess in the first place. More over, Misaki is wasn't even certain that they would be killed. In the end, everyhing she does is to ensure success of her plans. It's a coincidence she took thought to prevent possible deaths because she doesn't want her plans to go awry. They got caught in the mess themselves, do tell me how Misaki was the cause. MEMBER and Gensei were trying to incapacitate Misaka and the Sisters in the first place for their plans to get the Network and Misaka for Level 6 shift. Misaki took it upon herself to take in and save 10032 and she worked from behind the scenes just so Misaka wouldn't get caught up in it.
>>135718007 I don't think he'll pull a hivemind/mind-sharing power out of his ass, because such things already fall under the realm of mental powers and Misaki has the monopoly on that. It would just be redundant in a bad way.
The second part of Aihana's name (Etsu) means something like "pleasure" or "gratification" (I think). I'm guessing his power will have something to do with that as well.
Since his identity is a big part of his character, I think his whole ability will be based on the concept of identity and individuality, like St. Germain but in a less abstract way. If the other anon is right and it has something to do with bacteria/viruses, then maybe Aihana's identity itself is some kind of disease he can spread, allowing him to "exist" in several places at a time (like transmigration mixed with limited omnipresence). That sounds pretty sweet to me but perhaps it's too far-fetched.
I just really hope Kamachi won't give eye-based powers to Aogami.
>>135718192 >>135718202 Sure, but if it's related to his power, it'll turn into a shitty cliche. It has to be some sort of "I'm getting serious now" signal, but not an ability or whatever I really want him to open his eyes as he confronts Kamisato and demolishes him for rejecting his harem.
>>135717639 More excuses and missing the point. She's fine fucking people over and use their body/mind for her gain. Her reasons aren't relevant nor is this the means justifies the end situation. If she did things to achieve that by herself without using others, then that would be commendable. But no, she violates others. It doesn't matter if that's her powers since that doesn't make it okay.
>Nor does she bring them mental harm until proven otherwise. You didn't address the fact she she controls people against their will. >Nice headcanon. It's called common sense. Why does she erase memories instead of letting the people she have controlled keep them? Obviously because she doesn't want them to be mentally scarred. >Yes it is, partly, stop avoiding relevant arguments, you're conveniently leaving out a lot of other characters whose abilities put Misaki's actions into perspective. This was never been about other Levels 5. Stop directing away from the topic so you can make Misaki look less fucked up. >Tumblr is right this way. Shouting Tumblr that and Tumblr this won't give you a magical counter-argument.
>it doesn't actually have any substance As expected of a Misakifag apologist who sees no problem using people's body even if it means making them do things they don't agree to.
>She's not the only catalyst for the incident, She's the main reason.
>How does that change the fact that she used her powers only to save their lives? Not done out of the kindness of her heart. She did it to make sure her plans were on track. And still, no consent from the people she commands for her gain is fucked up.
>almost guaranteed Reaching.
>Which is bad in what way? It's not about planning things out or not. It's about her powers and what they represent and how she uses them for the aforementioned reasons said above.
>Headcanon It's not when it's true. She didn't think they were a priority. >Who wants their projects to go wrong? That's not the point. Stop the red herring.
>>135718629 I'm not even a Misakifag but god damn you're the most delusional anon I've seen in the last few months. You're literally making things up and avoiding talking about what the other dude actually said.
>>135718629 >She's fine fucking people over Again the same fucking argument that doesn't mean shit. Yeah, she places her own safety above that of others, stop acting as if she's actually doing harm unnecessarily. >use their body/mind for her gain You're just paraphrasing and repeating what you said above over and over. This point has been addressed at least five times already, stop your meaningless blabber. >It doesn't matter if that's her powers Yes it does because it's her powers which make her see into other peoples' minds. This inevitably pushes her to be more paranoid of her surroundings; you would be as well if you could see what happened in peoples' heads. >she controls people against their will I did address that fact but you seem a bit slow; she does that to preserve herself and doesn't do it if she doesn't have to, barring exceptions which are all completely inoffensive and mostly comical. >It's called common sense No, it's called being delusional. >Obviously because Are you Kamachi or are you just pulling shit out of your ass? You're quite clearly making arbitrary and baseless claims here >This was never about Level 5s See above, her power makes it inherently related to the L5s >directing away I'm just providing you with arguments which actually have a basis in reality. Sorry about that >magical counter-argument I don't need one when I have actual facts which prove you wrong. >She's the main reason Another anon addressed that above, what you're saying is simply not true. Read the series, it's more interesting than the Wiki. >Not done out of the kindness of her heart Sorry Jesus. >make sure her plans were on track As it would be expected from a reasonable person, but that's not true anyway. >no consent is fucked up Again with that argument, see above. She did it to save them and herself, period. God you're dense. >It's about her powers Yes it is. You're contradicting yourself. >how she uses them To save herself and others? >She didn't think Stop the fanfic
>>135718457 Not that anon either but only hell anon are you sounding like a Tumblrina. Literally all you've been spewing is that "They didn't give consent!" like a true Tumblrfag. Then you go and make up these claims about how her power has been harmful to people with made-up assumptions.
Even if she does violate the free will of others, why get so worked up about it when all of the people she has taken control over have never gotten harmed from it and don't even care about it(even if their memories did get altered). If anything, her power is less offensive than the other Level 5s because she can solve conflicts without having to inflict any harm on others.
>>135719691 Yeah, it sucks how we're down to analyzing his name to try to figure out stuff. He's not part of the Kamijou faction though, and didn't help Touma when all the Level fives were ordered to kill him, so I don't think he'll do anything this volume unfortunately
>>135719882 I suppose but he doesn't really have a reason to appear right now. Maybe if he works with Aleister like some anons think, he'll be ordered to actually do something after Noukan got obliterated and Yuiitsu became a liability
>>135719242 >Yeah, she places her own safety above that of others, stop acting as if she's actually doing harm unnecessarily. What an apologist. Self-defense isn't what drives Misaki and not doing excessive harm doesn't justify mind controlling people whenever it suits her benefit. >This point has been addressed at least five times already No it hasn't. I'm forced to repeat it because you refuse to except that what she does is bad. No matter how you sugarcoat, it is fucked up. >This inevitably pushes her to be more paranoid of her surroundings Doesn't give her reasons to use that power for her own benefit by trampling over people's ability to decide what they want to do or not. >she does that to preserve herself and doesn't do it if she doesn't have to, barring exceptions which are all completely inoffensive and mostly comical. Still sugarcoating by putting it as "to preserve herself" and over looking when she does it for kicks and giggles. Who wants to become a puppet toy with for amusement purpose? Fucked up. >No, it's called being delusional. >You're quite clearly making arbitrary and baseless claims here Make an argument then as to why she does erase memories of those she controls so they won't remember being used? You can't. It's literally common sense. >her power makes it inherently related to the L5s Irrelevant to the topic at hand. >Sorry about that You should be. >I don't need one when I have actual facts which prove you wrong. Citing facts but you haven't been able to argue why it isn't fucked up and instead keep making excuses. >what you're saying is simply not true. Read the series, it's more interesting than the Wiki. Cute argument. Looks like you have nothing. inb4 Misaka too which doesn't change the fact Misaki is the main cause.
>>135720135 >Citing facts but you haven't been able to argue why it isn't fucked up and instead keep making excuses. Said the dude that literally repeats the same thing over and over again without listening to what the other guy is saying.
>Sorry Jesus. More sarcasm that doesn't refute. >As it would be expected from a reasonable person, but that's not true anyway. A manipulative schemer making sure her plans are in order doesn't make her a good person when she fucks with people's free will. Yes, it is true. That's the sort of person she is. Even when it comes to trying to save the person who is most dear to her, that means putting her plan above all else. >see above. See all of the above. >Yes it is. You're contradicting yourself. >To save herself and others? After all this you still fail to get the point that she is devious and manipulative bitch who uses tramples over free will by controlling people, disregarding consent and choice? You are helpless. >Stop the fanfic Stop denying the truth.
>>135719346 Play it your way. What the fuck is a Tumblrina? I don't lurk that place like some people here, you know. Sorry. What? M-Moralfaggory? Please, /a/ have criticized characters who does fuck up stuff before.
>Even if she does violate the free will of others, why get so worked up about it when all of the people she has taken control over have never gotten harmed from it and don't even care about it(even if their memories did get altered). If anything, her power is less offensive than the other Level 5s because she can solve conflicts without having to inflict any harm on others. Because people should have a choice in whether they want to do something. It's their own decision, whether it is good or bad. Do you think all those people who gets their body hijacked by Misaki would approve and be okay with it? Completely doubtful. There's reason why she has to alter their memories so they don't remember what they did.
I am a little bit worried about those who think things like "free will" are trivial. Certainly, people deal with varying degrees of coercion everyday from both personified and systemic sources alike e.g. a boss at work and the need to work to have a living, and accept these to varying degrees. Furthermore, there are obviously situations in which a person can be deprived of degrees of bodily autonomy without their consent, physically or otherwise e.g. being injured or being in jail.
However, we tend to think of these as generally bad things for ourselves, and seek to minimize them as much as possible. It stands to reason that a person or thing that would inflict either of these things upon us unnecessarily (generally from one's own viewpoint, sometimes from other and more universal frames of reference e.g. "family", "a good cause", " society", etc.) would be bad for us. Someone who could do so absolutely, coerce without need of consent, and absolute deprivation of bodily autonomy, seems to be a big deal.
Now, everything in degrees. Misaki's ability is just that, an ability. How it's exercised tends to be the problem, though obviously one could conceive of powers with effects many would deem usually immoral. So one has to take things case by case, keeping in mind the above harms of coercion and loss of bodily autonomy.
For example, the library situation has been described as trivial, and on just the criteria of time and action it doesn't seem like a big deal (absent other effects e.g. what they were interrupted from doing, if there are associated mental harms). It does seem unnecessary. Nevertheless, it is described by some as comical, and therefore excusable--which is a separate but not invalid argument. However, I wonder how many would extend that courtesy towards things like Misaka being comically violent.
The above was offered for example There are other, more potentially serious situations, that I think we ought pause to consider before excusing outright.
>>135720135 >Self-defense isn't what drives Misaki Did you actually read the series? She doesn't trust people and uses her power to ensure her own safety because of the Dolly incident. If you didn't understand that I don't know what else I can do for you >doesn't justify Yes it does because of the aforementioned reasons that I'll enumerate one more time; 1. it doesn't harm them physically assuming they're innocent 2. it doesn't harm them mentally or psychologically assuming they're innocent 3. she doesn't abuse of her power or use it in a destructive way >whenever it suits her benefit You mean when she's required to do it in order to make sure her acquaintances and herself won't get hurt? It all boils down to this no matter how you put it. >No it hasn't Then learn to read because it really has and you've been repeating yourself the whole time. >you refuse to accept You mean I'm actually being rational instead of putting a vague and deeply flawed moral system above objectivity? >what she does is bad >it is fucked up I'm starting to think you're trolling here, there's no way you can just repeat the same fucking thing forever. >Doesn't give her reasons Yes, it does. Since tumblr is your home I'll use a tumblr analogy: if you were a 10/10 blonde middle-schooler and could perceive the intentions of every male in your vicinity, would you be inclined to prevent any incidents by directing their attention elsewhere by force? Yes you would you fucking hypocrite. >You can't So that they won't remember her and her actions won't leave traces for example? Use your brain for fuck's sake >Irrelevant You said it yourself that her power was relevant. Make a decision, dude. >You should be What, sorry for providing you with reasonable arguments? Sure is tumblr in here >you haven't been able to argue Go on, ask me something that isn't a loaded question. >Looks like you have nothing Well I did read the series for one
>>135715651 >Gunha is driven by hot-blooded male passion. Dude, his power is literally convincing himself that he can just punch his way through anything. Delusion and disbelief of objective reality literally fuels his abilities. Gunha is batshit insane because if he wasn't, he wouldn't punch a level 6's Misaka's lightning attack with his bare fist. He would dodge it like a rational person.
>>135720135 Honestly, it is getting pretty tiring of hearing you repeat your claims without actually providing solid proof. You're only believing what you want to believe and just spouting out "No free will!" as your only argument against her power.
>>135720431 >>view in element You're even more paranoid than the girl you're hating on, you're fucking sad man
>that doesn't refute How am I supposed to refute a statement which is pretty much on the same level as "doing bad things is bad"? Get over yourself >manipulative schemer Buzzwords for intelligent person? ok >fucks with other people's free will Within the boundaries of their personal safety unless these people mean harm to her, in which case it's perfectly justify to fuck with them >that means putting her plan above all else You can't do shit without a plan and she didn't put "her plan" (which was basically making sure Gensei didn't kill everyone, seems pretty legit to me) above Touma, what are you reading? >devious and manipulating bitch [...] Buzzwords again, and I just explained to you that there was a pretty strict way she used her abilities.
>>135720601 I'm that anon >>135720620 and I fundamentally agree with what you're saying, but I just want to point out that I don't consider "free will" to be trivial at all; a person's sovereignty over their own consciousness is extremely important. However, as you said, everything is in degrees, and the way Misaki uses her ability doesn't indicate at any point in time malevolent or flat-out evil intentions. On the contrary, it's almost always used in order to get her or others out of potentially harmful situations. The "almost" is important, as you said, because there are individual cases where the use of Mental Out could be said to be somewhat unnecessary or downright illegitimate. The library situation isn't justified because it's comical (although one could argue that anime being anime, comical scenes are somewhat more withdrawn from reality and have much less impact than normal scenes). However, the scene is justified because it hasn't lead to any kind of harm that we know of and that's important >loss of bodily autonomy >memory loss These two things are the main (perhaps only) moral issues that Misaki's ability raises. Therefore, if the use of her ability only affects these two things in a very light, almost insubstantial way, should it be considered immoral?
>>135721108 I think people would generally considered the absolute loss of bodily autonomy to be a pretty bad thing, the severity of which is moderated only by the relatively short time spans it takes place over or what goods occur because of it. The library situation doesn't seem "justified", it's just not the worst thing in the world. However, it is troubling that Misaki would use such a power for her own amusement.
>>135720620 >She doesn't trust people and uses her power to ensure her own safety Convenient excuse. But facts speaks for themselves. She always plans ahead, and that isn't always to ensure her safety, but to make sure she is steps ahead to obtain advantage. To be at the top so she doesn't have to worry. >Yes it does Nope. See >>135720431 >It all boils down to this no matter how you put it. Only if you pay attention to when she thinks she's in danger. That's obviously not the case when she does so to troll or for her own pleasure. still doesn't change the fact she's forcing people to assist her her goal's sake. >Then learn to read because it really has and you've been repeating yourself the whole time. That's the best you can do? You repeat just as much and I have to refute with the same response that;s appropriate. >vague and deeply flawed moral system above objectivity? There's nothing vague and flawed about valuing free will. The best you can say is well she doesn't hurt them physically and mentally (since she alters their miniseries), but that STILL does not change the fact she controls people by denying free will. Sugarcoat it all you want, but it's not going to make it okay. >no way you can just repeat the same fucking thing forever. Likewise. >Yes, it does. Since tumblr is your home I'll use a tumblr analogy: if you were a 10/10 blonde middle-schooler and could perceive the intentions of every male in your vicinity, would you be inclined to prevent any incidents by directing their attention elsewhere by force? Who's the troll here? Come back when you can be an adult here. ower was relevant. Other Level 5s are irrelevant. Reading comprehension. >Sure is tumblr in here Sure is another way to show mad and have no real counterargument here. >ask me something that isn't a loaded question. See the main point in the argument. >I did read the series for one So have I. Difference is you are an apologist.
>>135722178 It is a pretty bad thing, just not very important in terms of impact given the short time frame during which it occurred. I do agree that it was somewhat uncalled for given that Misaki just did it in order to establish dominance over Misaka; she didn't do it simply for amusement, at least I don't think so (she always acts amused). Not to extrapolate with no basis, but it seemed like a warning more than a simple "prank".
>>135722275 >So that they won't remember her and her actions won't leave traces for example? And why wouldn't she want them to remember her and what they have done? Use your BRAIN. Protip: it obviously isn't to just keep her identity a secret. People who want revenge and payback would want be after her. No shit. Why? Because she made them into her puppets. It's natural to feel upset and angry at someone to does whatever they want with your body and feeling powerless to do anything to stop it. >You said it yourself that her power was relevant.* Other Level 5s are irrelevant. Reading comprehension.
Missing section and fix.
>>135720672 Delusional and chuuni, maybe. But that isn't signs of being crazy like mental derangement. Definitely not batshit insane. Mugino is an example of batshit insane after she killed Frenda and spiraled downwards into a mess.
>>135720795 Classic. Don't agree and don't want to argue and only make side comments. Let's call it bait. It's not like I don't know what's happening. Misakifags trying to back each other up is typical for this thread.
>>135720801 >paranoid Whatever help you sleep at night.
>How am I supposed to refute a statement which is pretty much on the same level as "doing bad things is bad"? Why don't you try to explain how violating free will isn't inherently a bad thing? You can't because you know it is true. You can only make it less bad and make it okay by justifying Misaki's actions. That's all have done so far.
>>135722425 >Buzzwords for intelligent person? Accurate description doesn't make it a buzzword because you dislike it. >Within the boundaries of their personal safety unless these people mean harm to her, in which case it's perfectly justify to fuck with them Free will itself is the boundary. You don't fuck with that. Misaki using it for self-defense could be argued for, but that is an exception and not the rule. >Touma I was talking about Dolly, genius. >Buzzwords again This again. Strict? That's a new way to sugarcoat what she does.
>>135722275 >She always plans ahead Yeah. Is that a bad thing now? >isn't always to ensure her safety >but to make sure she is steps ahead to obtain advantage And why does she want to obtain an advantage? Keep in mind that most of her actions concerning AC's dark side or whatever stem from her lack of trust. As I said, it all comes down to security, be it immediate or preventive. >so she doesn't have to worry Yeah, again, is that a bad thing? She's not fucking Stalin, we've never seen her actually hurt someone just because they "could possibly someday" pose a threat to her.
>Nope Do you really want to play that game of "yes I'm right, no you're not"? I've actually justified myself in >>135721108 and >>135722296. Also you can fuck right off, linking me posts I've already replied to is useless and further proves your lack of discernment >to troll Give me an example. The library? I've addressed that in the post linked above.
By the way, of course you didn't bother replying to those two posts up to now because being forced to produce an argument that isn't nonsensical babbling is alien to you. Funny how selective you are - now I'm predicting that you're going to half-ass another empty moralfag reply but whatever
>her own pleasure Pure, utter bullshit right here, she never did that just for her own pleasure. Your fanfic crap is getting really annoying >valuing free will I value free will but I disagree with you, see the post I linked about free will. >does not change the fact that Yeah and? If a tree falls in a forest and nobody's there to hear or see it ever, did it really fall? That's the kind of question your reply implies >controls people When necessary. I just want you to explain WHY this is wrong. >Come back when you can be an adult I think I'm behaving in a more reasonable way than you are, anon It's also funny how you conveniently avoided answering to my analogy.
>>135722296 As I recall, Misaki was the one provoking Mikoto. Her actions therefore seem unnecessary and irresponsible at least, and tells us something about her character if she would so casually inflict her ability on her classmates for a fight she picked.
>>135722275 >Other Level 5s are irrelevant Yeah? You did say it was about her powers, and putting her powers into perspective is important, but whatever. >See the main point Show it to me, there's no point. Your "point" is just you repeating that Mental Out is wrong and immoral, cry me a river bullshit >have no real counterargument I have provided you with a few, which you always avoid or simply do not respond to. >you are an apologist Yeah I like Misaki >>135722425 >Use your BRAIN The fucking irony, gtfo >it obviously isn't to just keep her identity a secret First of all, my statement was an extrapolation, but now you're actually inventing things on top of that (mostly baseless) statement, that I just provided in order to show you that there might be a reason for her erasing memories. >because she made them into her puppets Or because she got them involved in business that doesn't really concern them? Again it's just a baseless theory, but feel free to elaborate with your headcanon
>Whatever helps you sleep at night If your only way to "refute" an argument is to call someone a samefag, then so be it.
>how violating free will isn't inherently a bad thing I won't even get into the "does free will exist" argument because it'd be uncalled for, but I explained how it was somewhat justified when I answered the other anon. >You can't I can, and I did. >>135722477 >Accurate description You mean an insult and a synonym for "good planner"? Because that's what it is >You don't fuck with that Says who, you? Are you the authority on morality and ethics? >that is an exception and not the rule Fucking delusional. It is what she mostly uses it for, as long as you consider reasonable preventive action as defense (which they are). >I was talking about Dolly That just disproves your argument even more, though.
I'll go to sleep now, thanks for the laugh. If the thread is still alive tomorrow I'll continue replying, if not I'll just do it in the archive
>>135722933 >Misaki was the one provoking Mikoto You're right. youtube.com/watch?v=Aw4F0saf2wo This is the scene. As you can see, both are in the wrong, with Misaki starting shit but being mostly playful and Misaka responding to that aggressively, but I agree that Misaki's use of her power was kind of unnecessary. >tells us something about her character I don't think so. As seen in that scene, she's always teasing people (Misaka especially and much more than anyone else), but does that make her inherently mischievous? >casually inflict her ability on her classmates I suppose so. One could argue that it was an empty threat and that she wouldn't have forced so many students to fight Misaka if they weren't part of her clique. To me, it really is just a way to tell Misaka to "know her place" (because of that whole clique wars/territory thing in Tokiwadai), and to show her that despite being immune to Mental Out, Misaki was still a threat.
Whether free will exists or not is probably not a useful question. Obviously we don't have the abstract ideal of free will in a deterministic universe (all actions are caused by previous actions, down to the metaphysical level, so none of our actions are truly willed), but they also don't exist in an indeterminate universe (if we cannot tie cause and effect, no matter what we will, it has no bearing on our actual actions).
We obviously have "free will" in the sense that we can make choices, however, and I think it is useless to say otherwise. That is of course contingent, as that free will can be coerced or otherwise stripped away by various means.
>>135723324 Misaki was the one to pull her powers first. If you're going to give Misaki such wide breadth for self-defense, Mikoto raising her voice hardly puts her in the wrong. And Misaki using her powers for such a petty reason? Rather distasteful if you ask me.
>>135722674 >Yeah. Is that a bad thing now? You love nitpicking, don't you? Read the whole thing. >As I said, it all comes down to security, be it immediate or preventive. Not true when Misaki makes war by going on the offensive. It's not always because she has to defend herself. You see controlling people, be it to defend herself or for personal amusement as small and let it slide, but that still counts because she does it for entertainment or for personal reasons (like with Misaka). > is that a bad thing? It is no matter if she physically harms them or not. Just because you seem to be free of morals doesn't make it a good thing. >I've actually justified myself in >>135721108 and >>135722296 So you now are think that free will isn't trivial? That's nice. But yet, you still are going to say Misaki ripping free will away is still okay but well at least she doesn't try to harm those she controls. Misaki places them people she control in dangerous situations or do things in which people have a right to refuse? Who is she to be able to do that? Fucked up. >Give me an example. The library? I've addressed that in the post linked above. Why not Halation that I gave already? You dismissed, but I already told you why you couldn't. Purposely getting in Misaka way and putting the people she controlled into as much danger, if not more.
>didn't bother replying to those two posts up to now Sorry for not having as strong autism as you. The above argument addresses it already. Your argument isn't different for that anon than it is with me. You still are sugarcoating Misaki's actions by justifying it with a one-sided look at her intentions.
>Pure, utter bullshit right here, she never did that just for her own pleasure. Fucking with Misaka is her main source of pleasure. If Misaka didn't have a natural barrier, she would have fucked Misaka over doing God knows what. >I value free will but I disagree with you, see the post I linked about free will. if you value it at all, then you would be completely fine with what Misaki does.
>If a tree falls in a forest and nobody's there to hear or see it ever, did it really fall? That's the kind of question your reply implies Awful comparison. Misaki knows it so information of the events that has taken place exists. Either way, you are still ignoring the fact Misaki plunders free will and consent. >When necessary. I just want you to explain WHY this is wrong. I already did many times, and again (read all above) in this reply. But you sugarcoat and try to justify it. >I think I'm behaving in a more reasonable way than you are, anon If you think shouting tumblr, moralfag, and apologizing for an inherently bad thing makes you reasonable. >conveniently avoided answering to my analogy. I don't see one. Don't start going delusional now.
>>135721108 >These two things are the main (perhaps only) moral issues that Misaki's ability raises. There's also her potential to straight up change a person. Boiling it down to bodily autonomy doesn't actually cover what's really going on here.
For example, let's say a telekinetic esper forces me to shoot my pet cat. Well I'll feel pretty bad about that, but at the end, it's not really me who pulled the trigger, it's the asshole who had my body moving around like a puppet on strings. Mental manipulation is arguably "worse" because at the end of the day the person who shot my cat really was me.
Though honestly, at the end of the day I don't particularly care because I don't think anybody in Academy City has any autonomy anyway.
>>135725768 >Why not Halation that I gave already? You dismissed, but I already told you why you couldn't. Purposely getting in Misaka way and putting the people she controlled into as much danger, if not more. This is a nitpick (and I'm not the person who you were talking to) but everyone participating in Agitate Halation was in a dangerous situation to begin with, and it's pretty easy to argue that by that point their free will had already been taken away.
>>135723076 >Yeah? You did say it was about her powers, and putting her powers into perspective is important, but whatever. It is. Her powers that removes a person's ability to control their own body while enslaving their minds to her command. And she uses that kind of power for various reasons, none of which makes it okay to void free will. If you had accepted that she isn't a good-willed person and what she does is considered morally wrong, then we wouldn't have had this argument in the first place. >Show it to me Start from: >>135713143 >>135714353 and the replies that tries to make it acceptable. When you get down to it, the only thing you need to argue is if you believe ignoring free will and controlling people like puppets on strings is a bad or not and don't try to justify ii. >I have provided you with a few, which you always avoid or simply do not respond to. You didn't in that response with tumblr crap. Nice try though. >Yeah I like Misaki Weak argument. That doesn't mean you must be an apologist. Not fans act in defense like this. >Use your BRAIN >The fucking irony, gtfo Do you have a point or what? You're not addressing any points I made in that post here. Also >gtfo >I just provided in order to show you that there might be a reason for her erasing memories. >Or because she got them involved in business that doesn't really concern them? No shit they wouldn't have business since it doesn't concern them. They shouldn't have business in the first place. You are seriously in denial if you think there won't be those who wouldn't get mad and try to get back at Misaki if they had kept their memories.
>If your only way to "refute" an argument is to call someone a samefag, then so be it. Unfortunately for you there is no argument or refute to begin with. Side comments as a different person is only just that. One is a fool to fall for samefag and obvious trap on /a/, yet at the same time its' foolish to call out samefag if the possibility is almost unmistakeable because it's easy to deny it. Funny how that is.
> I explained how it was somewhat justified when I answered the other anon. You did then. Reasonable as you try to make it out to be, you still have to answer what I stated above how we wouldn't ave this argument in the first place if you had tackled the main point. >Are you the authority on morality and ethics? No, but it's common sense and having decency of a human being. >Fucking delusional. It is what she mostly uses it for, as long as you consider reasonable preventive action as defense (which they are). Nope. One could count the number of times she used it seriously for that. The rest of the time she's a egotistic Queen B who has a begrudging rivalry with the Railgun. Her misuse are more numerous. >That just disproves your argument even more, though. Not really. That would fall under exception and even if you find it admirable, her means still isn't morally right or okay since she still rapes free will.
>>135725970 One could argue that free will was more or less gone for those heroes who got "pushed" into being a hero for Fremea, but then I could also say Misaki applied another set of will into those heroes, so it's still the same thing. It was a danger zone, but Misaki could be argued to be them in more danger trying to screw Misaka over, which Misaka had to respond with. Also having heroes fight each other for god knows how long and to what end is undoubtedly not going to be safe or more safe.
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