>>120738147 Yeah, this. I dunno if he had put the gem away in the VN before the summoning, but the gem was still close enough that it would be the closest thing to act as a catalyst. But there had to be something in his shed that would count as a catalyst for Archer. All that aside, I'm pretty sure that without Avalon he wouldn't have been chosen for the war or summoned anyone, and so he would have just died. If we're being technical, if Shirou didn't have Avalon he would have died 10 years before Fate/Stay Night.
>>120738354 >I don't think you can summon archer again considering hes already summoned Why not? In the third war the Edelfeldt cunts, who look suspiciously like Rin and Sakura, summoned the same Saber, twice.
>>120738504 Wasn't there some bullshit tied to that? I have the impression that normally the holy grail just gives what class is missing. It wouldn't make much sense for Rin to be hoping for a saber class instead of archer in the intro othervise.
Archer is a shit Servant in general who happens to have a really good super-ability. The issue is that Unlimited Blade Works, cool as it is, doesn't hold up versus an Excaliblast or Gae Bolg to the face.
>>120738651 Okay, assuming that Archer wouldn't immediately try to get rid of Shirou (for example by not preventing Lancer's killing blow like Saber did or maybe even trying to kill Shirou himself) the fight would probably go pretty much the same way the Archer vs. Lancer fight went like 10-20 minutes earlier that day (and Saber vs. Lancer that happened in original), that is Lancer getting ready to use his NP, this time actually using it because he didn't get distracted. I don't think Archer would have enough luck to survive that thing like Seiba did.
>>120738874 Well lets not be too harsh on caster, she'd probably at least wait until she realises Shirou is a giant white knight thats probably going to be more of a liability to keep around than a boon.
>>120738920 I'm not forgetting anything, it's just that Shirou's version of Archer being inferior would still result in Lancer killing Shirou for a second time that night, so I don't really think it needs to be mentioned. Unless you meant that Shirou's Archer wouldn't even last long enough for Lancer to use his NP, in which case you are probably right.
>>120738636 I'd imagine that Archer would attempt to kill Shirou immediately after getting over the improbability of his situation only for Shirou to panic and yell "DON'T KILL ME" and accidentally activate a command seal.
Cue Archer trying for the rest of the war to kill Shirou despite being possessed not to let him die.
>>120738765 The explanation is that they summoned two sides of the same servant. For simplicity sake Nasu made it Saber and Saber alter. It wasnt actually the King Arturia Saber but it was the best way to explain what they did. And Im pretty sure they only could do it because of their family trait
Who's to say that the grail would pick him as a master if he didn't have a catalyst? Maybe Kotomine would have been selected instead, and then he wouldn't have had to steal Lancer from Bazett (though he'd probably still do it because fuck it, he'd have 3 servants).
>>120741675 The Grail picks a shitton of people and gives them the Marks of the Chosen. First seven magi with marks of the chosen to summon their Servants are Masters, and the marks become Command Seals. Grail gives no fucks about catalysts, it just decides if you're "worthy" based on your nature as a magus, though its selection criteria are all sorts of weird.
>>120741129 Servants aren't Heroic Spirits, by the way. The Servant's just a half-rate copy the Grail makes, so there's no reason why you couldn't have two of one Servant summoned at the same time. It's not like it's the actual Heroic Spirit that shows up. It's just that the odds of that actually happening are low. We'll probably never have our Grail War of Six Hercs.
>>120738137 Like people said, he'd summon EMIYA. And probably get decapitated half a second later.
>>120738651 >EMIYA beating a serious Cu >EMIYA beating a serious Cu on the first fight >EMIYA beating a serious Cu on the first fight with Shirou as EMIYA's Master
>>120742473 >so there's no reason why you couldn't have two of one Servant summoned at the same time.
I think the issue is more two of the same class, rather than the same hero to different classes, but then again with the other games going beyond the initial 7 classes (not to mention the 3rd doing it as well by having avenger), that's all up in the air.
Basically, only the three Knight classes are "fixed" for the Fuyuki system, and it's impossible to summon a duplicate if the duplicate is of the same class. So yeah, if they only qualify for one class, you can't have two of them in the same war. That said:
Means the Heroic Spirits are picked before the classes, and since only the Knight classes are locked the other four could viably change. There's also this bit from Fate route:
>There is a change in one or two of the classes every Holy Grail War, but we have a basic lineup this time.
Alternatively, you can just do a non-Fuyuki war like the Moon Cell's, which works on a different system (a better one that actually can do stuff).
But yeah, two of the same class is impossible. You could maybe say that there could be a second "original" class that replaces one of the non-Knight classes, that EMIYA happens to qualify for, depending on how far you want to stretch things.
>>120742976 She's in the Throne outside of time, but the one that's summoned for Grail Wars is her straight from the hill.
She's on the hill, she gets sent to innumerable opportunities to reach the grail from across time, and "after" that she's posited in the Throne as a legitimate Heroic Spirit. All the same, the "her" actualized in the Grail War is different from the "her" that gets stored in the Throne after her death.
>>120743208 It's able to replicate and actualize Akashic records. You can refer to the chat that Hakunon has with Kotomine near the end of EXTRA for that, I'd post quotes but it'd probably fill the character limit, and I've got to go do shit.
It's actually capable of affecting the world and realizing a perfect future for you, unlike the Fuyuki Grail which is just a simple sacrificial ritual that's been leveled up a lot. Fuyuki's is way more limited because it's just a standard artificial miracle.
Also Moon Cell can replicate more stuff, can use Eastern HSs, and other obscene things.
Anyway I've got to go do shit, so I'll leave with this. It sums up why the Moon Cell is based pretty well.
>Holy Grail >This had once been a term pointing out to the "wish granting machine that could grant any wish", but in Extra it's referring to the "right to use the Moon Cell." >If you browse through the vast records of Earth simulations stored in the Moon Cell, you are sure to find the Earth with the future you desire. >All you, you who have earned the right to use the Moon Cell, have to do is tell it this: >"Recreate my ideal future." >The Moon Cell should quickly move things forward so that the Earth will take the shape of that future. >For the Moon knows how, it knows all that is to be done to make it so.
>You might say "I want all the girlies in the world to be mah little sister" for example, and then in about ten years, it would be assumed that society on Earth would be reorganized in that fashion. >Or the Earth as a whole might be managed so that an apparatus that can make that dream "seem real " would be created. >There is nothing that humans can 't realize as long as it lies within the scope of human imagination. >Because whatever kind of illusion it is, however much of a pipe dream it is, there is a way to experience it.
Yes, this makes Gil's Collector skill broken. CCC wanked him. Well, sorta, it more just "clarified the wank". Nasu's Gilboner is huge.
>>120743343 >You might say "I want all the girlies in the world to be mah little sister" for example, and then in about ten years, it would be assumed that society on Earth would be reorganized in that fashion.
>>120738839 >The issue is that Unlimited Blade Works, cool as it is, doesn't hold up versus an Excaliblast or Gae Bolg to the face.
Archer's danger is not UBW; even according to Nasu, if that's all he has then he loses in direct battle pretty quickly against almost any servant.
However Archer can beat almost any servant due to his planning, ability to maximize what little he has, practical application, and personality. He can see twenty steps ahead, pull out just the right weapon, and snipe freely.
Don't ever just rush in and go "I cast Blade Works" like the Saber type fighters, Archer always has to play it cool and plot ahead if he wants to stand a chance. Being Batman is what makes him one of the more dangerous servants in some situations.
>>120743533 This, the red man never gets an easy victory not even against scrub servants but in exchange there isn't anyone he categorically can't beat given half an opportunity to pull the right trick out of his sleeve.
>>120743208 Mooncell has recorded everything in Earth, and the Galaxy. I mean everything since the beginning of time on Earth or otherwise.
The Throne has recorded a handful of things, a few heroes, but the Mooncell has literally recorded everything and has an all around higher capacity. Throne has to put people under a contract to summon them, but Mooncell just records them regardless. That's why you can see shit like divine spirits and the origin of all divine spirits in CCC. Then when they beyond even that, shit gets even more crazy.
Mooncell is something innately beyond Gaia's domain; while the Throne, is very inside of the domain and limited by some things. Mooncell is all around better in a not even close sort of way.
Comparing it to the Fuyuki grail is comparing Arcuied to Shirou, and then going "Yeah but, is Arcuied actually better? Does Shirou have a chance?"
Saber beat rider in the first route, rider dies like a bitch in the second route, and beats saber in the third route. And don't say she needed shiros help for third route, nothing wrong with a master assisting a servant in battle.
It's a matter of circumstance. Archer was hardly recovered and took five lives off berserker first route. Second route he sticks it to caster as well as blocking, admittedly inferior gaebulge, and no scoping Gilgamesh after going days from fading away from existance. Underestimating any of these servants is stupid.
>>120743746 Mooncell also stands outside of time in the same way as Throne, so it's recorded from the beginning to the end. Only the Far Side and Core of the Cell work under Archived time though, while the Near Side works under Perceived Time.
Even divine spirits of the highest level tend to slip outside of time. It's just one of those things high tier beings can just do.
>>120744835 Only if the wielder is Ulster-born. And that part doesn't make sense to begin with considering that Cu made that deal with Fergus and was the first to retreat so that Fergus would flee from him on a later date.
>>120742976 She has a special attribute where she would go outside of the Throne after death, since all of England believed she would be back. Thus she is outside of the Throne's jurisdiction as something that is never truly dead. The only way the Throne could steal her away and put her under its jurisdiction, was by forcing a contract upon her.
Thus before she died on the hill, it approached her and asked if she had some wish, in exchange for eternal servitude.
>Q: In the Saber route, Saber terminated her contract with the World by breaking the Grail by her own will, but in the end, wouldn't a hero of the caliber of King Arthur end up being removed from the cycle of transmigration as a Heroic Spirit after death? >A: King Arthur's goin' to Avalon. >Among the English, King Arthur's still very much around. After all, she's "the Once and Future King".
>[original Japanese says "king who will be back" but she that's awkward and she ain't the Terminator]
There are a few other people with the trait "Once and Future King", but really not many.
Francis Drake Elizabeth, Jesus has a similar thing going on, etc
>>120745097 Well even than the geis was this >"It matters not to me, O fosterling," replied Fergus; "for had I a sword in this, it never would cut thee nor be plied on thee. But, by the honour and training I bestowed upon thee and the Ulstermen and Conchobar bestowed, give way before me this day in the presence of the men of Erin!" "Truly I am loath to do that," answered Cuchulain, "to flee before any one man on the Cattle-spoil of Cualnge." "Nay then it is not a thing to be taken amiss by thee," said Fergus; "for I in my turn will retreat before thee when thou wilt be covered with wounds and dripping with gore and pierced with holes in the battle of the Táin. And when I alone shall turn in flight before thee, so will all the men of Erin also flee before thee in like manner."
>So zealous was Cuchulain to do whatever made for Ulster's weal that he had his chariot brought to him, and he mounted his chariot and he went in confusion and flight from Fergus in the presence of the men of Erin.
>>120745544 She didn't even want to fight him and was avoiding trying to crush them, by her own words that would be unfair. Leo kind of forced her hand with the Sword of Camelot codecast that goes back to the days of ye olde England.
Sword of Camelot is a special code where two knights must settle something without being able to leave the area until the dual is over, the only thing that can break the arena is the wielder of a Holy Sword if he objects to the duel. Even BB could not escape that until the duel was decided.
It's the same as an ant trying to fight an elephant though; they tried to pick her off thinking she would be weak if alone, but in reality she was just an all around monster. BB plays all the rules fair technically, which is why she wouldn't try to fight someone on her own unless attacked. It would just be too much of an advantage.
>>120745991 >Sword Camelot >A special type of codecast known as a "Finality". >A secret spell that a renowned magus family passes down in its lineage. >Sword Camelot is the secret codecast of the Harways. >It's a castle used so that two knights who value honor can determine who is the better of the two without the interference of interlopers. >The wall of flame encircling their surroundings cannot be destroyed unless it is by the welder of a holy sword who is against the duel. >Oh and that magic missile that a certain magic user used to destroy this reeeeally priceless relic ought to eventually fall in the category of Finalities.
That's about what we know of it
It doesn't sound like they're talking about BB in the final line for some reason, so it might have come up in a different spot.
>>120746200 The time Aoko used all the prana in the leylines of the best Spiritual Land in Japan, plus the near-infinite prana generated by an Age of Gods Ploy's separate reality, plus her own absurd efficiency to create a giant magic beam that nearly killed her and destroyed said Age of Gods Ploy.
>>120746451 Aoko channeling the leyline completly pisses on what we know about magecraft. Magi are supposed to be hard-limited by their ammount of circuits. Which is why Rin and Sakura weren't allmighty during their last battle but "only" had an output of 1000 "units"
Unlimited rotation circuits, son. Her efficiency's the reason she got Blue in the first place, she's literally the most efficient magus. She's able to take in prana from the leylines, shoot it out when she hits capacity, and then repeat the process over and over all the while amplifying it so the final spell product is a torrent of unprocessed magical energy.
That said, it only works because she's Second Owner of those leylines. And even then, she pushed her circuits which are supposed to be "limitless" for things like that to their limit, shit nearly killed her from channeling that much. She also had to make a shitton of magic circles and a huge aria just to access the Foundation, even though she's second owner.
Aoko's pretty much specced to do one thing only, and that's fire fast and giant beamus. Her circuits, her style, the circumstances, everything culminates at that point.
I'm guessing you haven't read Mahoyo, in which case don't say stuff about it being wrong without knowing what the hell you're talking about.
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