How has it been 20 years without another anime as philosophical as evangelion?
what does this mean for the anime medium?
tatami galaxy isnt philosophical
it's pretty much just an f scott fitzgerald book
madoka is pseudointellectual whereas evangelion is actually intellectual
It just repeats what said dead guys said nearly a hundred years ago. It brings absolutely new to the table. It might be called for philosophical in comparison to other anime, but it is not a philosophical anime.
What the hell, man. Some merch doesn't make a show an advertisement on the same level as the latest shounen battle adaptation. Advertisement is officially a buzzword now.
Eva is an intellectual anime. You need to have an IQ above double digits to 'get it', not much of an accomplishment but intellectual by the standards of most other anime.
It's not a philosophical anime. There are presciently zero philosophical anime. This should be obvious if you ever read a philosophical book even badly. The medium simply doesn't handle it well. Philosophy is very hard to explain, even in non-fiction books its a task to get the point across clearly.
Have you seen Ergo Proxy?
If this anime was a person, it would shit philosophy from his ass.
I hate you eva fags so much. I can only hope that one day you all get some kind of anus cancer. That way, the rest of the world will be spared the homosexual torrent that falls out of your mouths and anuses.
>How has it been 20 years without another anime as philosophical as evangelion?
I'm not talking about the ideas themselves being furthered. An expression of old ideas in a new and different context, that's what majority of stories have been for a very long time when you get pass the very specifics at the surface of the content.
Compare Mind Game to Tatami Galaxy, if you've seen them, similar and dissimilar.
>20 years without another anime as philosophical as evangelion?
The Wapanese animu industry realized that it can't sell "turning the audience into their psychiatrist whilst the creators and directors are on the couch."
Madoka succeeded because of the Urabutcher and SHAFT. Nobody else but maybe Unicorn Gundam.
How surprising considering that there are probably like 1000 times more movies than anime and 1 million times more books.
>No Haibane Renmei, no NieA_7, no Figure 17, no Princess Tutu
People exaggerate the "philosophical" and "psychological" parts of Eva too much. The best parts are always just the action scenes
>What the fuck is the difference between cinema and film?
If you want deep shit, the gospel according to /a/ seems to think this is the next great white hope.
There's many anime out there, what's the big deal if some of them try to appeal to a demographic different from yourself? It's not like every show is trying to be like Eva or anything, Give it a break.
I am designing a tabletop game in the spirit of NGE (unrelated to AdEva). I'm looking for some feedback in terms of how to proceed. Here are a few questions:
1. Do you think each character represented a specific social/human flaw? If so, which one(s)?
2. What caused evangelion and pilot to synch better, love, hate, or something else?
3. Generally speaking, did social interaction effect battle performance? Can you site specific examples if possible?
4. If you have to categorize the three main pilots (Shinji, Rei, Asuka), who "grew" the most during the course of the show? Was it a positive or negative growth?
5. What aspect of Evangelion did you enjoy the most?
You don't need to answer everything (disregard if you already seen this). Feedback is highly encouraged though! Thanks.
I love Evangelion, but please. Lain, Kaiba, Stand Alone Complex, Texhnolyze, Haibane Renmei, Shoujo Kakumei Utena. Also, Eva might be psychological but it's not philosophical.
>avoidant personality disorder and judeo-christean symbolisms: The anime
hehe moefags don't know about my superior cortex
1. They represented different ways people use to escape from reality. They can be assigned to specific psychological disorders if that's what you mean.
2. Stability. You could have something like "sanity" in Cthulhu which would make it easier to synch with an Eva.
2. Well, this depends on the type of interaction. Healthy interactions helped, sure.
4. Rei had the most spread-out, consistent growth. Shinji grew the most in the end but it was pretty fast, basically during instrumentality, same for Asuka probably.
5. The atmosphere, you've got surreal looking aliens, kabalistic illuminati, bio-mecha and all the talking-inside-the-mind stuff. It's weirdness got me hooked from the start. That and the well-developed characters, which is the main reason the series was so much better than the rebuilds.
Why everyone loves Don Quijote so much?
Is it possible that I don't appreciate it because as a Spanish student I was forced to read the book in school but I wanted to do something else instead of reading?
H.Pitty is something for Elementary to Middle School students. Beyond that it loses its appeal. It's a good starter fiction series but that's all it is. It's like the Naruto of Fiction.
science fiction and fantasy are not litertarure
>implying you wanted to read a dense as fuck book instead of doing something else that your childish mind considered funnier
>inb4 I wanted to read books :^)
I'll never understand the idea behind lying on some anonymous imageboard
Not necessarily. The "future" may account for the majority of science fiction settings but it doen't have to be its qualifying feature. Wasn't a new kind of metal being developed in Atlas Shrugged that would affect society's industries?
there's the buzzword that idiots use for things they don't understand
Excellent. First complete response I've received. Much appreciated.
Well, Rearden invents "Rearden metal," which is just a new alloy that's "stronger." I don't really think the book emphasizes anywhere near enough technology to be considered science fiction.
Each to his own I guess. I'd regard it as a socio-scientific. But you know, the book isn't a pure science fiction novel so I wouldn't be too ready to defend it as belonging to any one genre. It's a decent read and important enough (=/= toptier) and it happens to include science elements, which is why it's hard to ignore when compiling such a list.
/lit/ here. We were asked to rank our 5 favorite books in order. First place received 5 points, second place received 4, and so forth. There are some obvious jokes there, but it constitutes a good deal of what /lit/ discusses.
Well usually dystopias have technology in them to make it a dystopia. But like this guy said >>119518115 it's not any one particular genre. Also, Project X and Galt's motor are definitely sci-fi elements.
It has no philosophical deapth. It was bullshit that he crammed in because it sounded cool and he didnt have any budget left to pay animators. No this doesnt make it a _bad_ anime but understand that there is nothing there to analyze.
Please get over it allready.
The original anime ended after an inner dialogue about Shinji's selfhatred and xenophobia. The last 2 episodes had no action. How can you say that the psychological part is valued too much by people even though it ends after Shinji finding his inner peace, without telling us what happened to mankind afterwards? The inner struggle, a psychological conflict, clearly was the main plot of the series.
Not sure how often you browse /tg/, but Adeptus Evangelion, a roleplaying homebrew system for Eva, is fairly popular there. AdEva is a lot more detail oriented with plenty of tables, charts, and player customization. I think it takes it a little too far, with a lesser focus given to storytelling. I want to create something that is more focused on storytelling, player interaction, and character development. Said factors would directly influence evangelion-angel combat.
I have most of the framework worked out, but several particular points I'm going back and forth over. I know the direction I want to go with it, but deciding on how to get there is the real challenge.
>There are presciently zero philosophical anime.
Where will you be releasing your materials? I like rpgs that don't overcomplicate mechanics and focus more on story-telling myself. If you have more questions like the ones you posted, ask away. I'm a bit of an eva-fag actually.
I'll make a topic on /tg/, probably late January if everything goes well. After that, probably make a page on 1d4chan.org or something. I'll also run an alpha test about the same time, probably with an online pick-up group.
I know that is a lot of probably, but that's all I have right now. That and an unfinished draft.
In terms of questions, character advancement is one thing I want to explore in a specific manner. One persistent interest is to determine whether or not synchronization ratio will increase/decrease with social interaction, how, and if it will influence anything beyond piloting evas. So opinions on that would be welcome.
Thing is there isn't any direct causality here. Shinji getting friends at school and being accepted definitely helped him become more stable which in term made him a better pilot. But because he got friends he also experienced rejection in the end. When Touji got hurt, he and the rest of his friends in class didn't want anything to do with Shinji. This in turn had a negative effect on him.
Remember though, that mental instability is practically a requirement to be a pilot. Seele wanted kids like that because they knew such kids would in the end bring about the third impact and bring about instrumentality. A stable kid from a healthy family not only wouldn't want to reject his instrumentality but probably wouldn't ever pilot a mecha, because he wouldn't feel the need to prove himself to someone in such a dangerous manner: father (Shinji), protector (Rei), others in general (Asuka). They were all doing it because of certain complexes.
I loved Evangelion back when I watched only like 5 anime, but now I think it's kind of crippled by its dual nature, the big twisty super robot epic and the introspective primal howl of the tortured artist, smashed together into one 26-episode whole. You can't really watch the first half without being reminded of the stuff that came later, and the second half is confined by the mecha setting and can't go all out with the artiness. Later on I saw Lain and Texhnolyze, which had the feel of the second half, and also Nadesico, which had the feel of the first half, and they were all better than Eva. Actually I'm rewatching Eva right now, and I kind of wish I was watching Nadesico instead.
Good points all around. Mental instability is sort of tied into character archetype. It's either your greatest attribute, or your lowest attribute. For example, great courage could mean greater arrogance and such. I haven't really decided on what effect it will have in the game yet.
As for SR, I was also considering that your character could build in between scenes, or angel attacks, or what have you, representing their general improvement in piloting an eva. But since SR is also tied into mental state, I have to think of some way to have it decrease. And all of this can't be too frequent to keep the book keeping on the low.
Evangelion is a 7 or 8 out of 10 anime, what makes the whole trip worth it is EoE where you witness the rise and fall of the true heroes.
Wh- Why can't I do all of those things?
Can't we all agree that both are shit compared to Utena?
Only if we further agree that Utena is shit compared to Penguindrum.
>Watched Eva recently
>Just want to discuss the cool robots, animation, and ayyliens
>Never discussed on /m/ because it's a Gainax show not named Gunbuster, /a/ only talks about it for the girls and the my anime is better than yours meme
I swear to fucking christ.
>not shit from the second half
Penguindrum was pretty good, but Ikuni's best work is still Utena. Never have I seen such a great work of recontextualization in my life. The way that the motivations and actions of it`s main characters are completly put under new light at the last two episodes no less if quite amazing.
Yeah, of course, I was just saying that Eva has two sides to it, a lighter side and a darker side, both of which I'd rather take separately. Actually this is just totally my own opinion, I see what Eva is trying to do, it just doesn't work for me.
Eva is pretty dark from the get-go
>Shinji gets into the supa fightan robot
>arm broken, impaled through the head
>goes berserker, snaps the monster's arms, then savagely bashes the helpless creature's heart open with its own rib(?)
But I get where you mean. Fair enough, anon.
The internet is 3rd impact, this is the year it'll finally kill us all.
1. Definately, although the representations of such flaws isn't as static as the representation of such said flaws would normally bring about; basically I'm saying that even though each of the three pilots have a certain main flaw attributed to them, they all share in the fact that they each have enough intelligence to actually hate themselves and feed themselves reasoning for self abasement to continue; this is what keeps it from being something like a bunch of moaning (Shinji whines when he has reason, and honestly I've seen more complaints about NGE than I have something like Accel World or Renton from Eureka 7 who both in the first eps complained more than Shinji did in at least 5, which I find to be somewhat strange. That being said, I would say dominately Shinji's specific flaw is a basic lack of confidence and drive; a compass if you will, to give him drive to find a way to love himself, to find reason in the idea. Asuka's the most obvious in the fact that she exibits gratification and happiness only through others, which more superficially causes jealousy, and more deeply causes problems with important attention to the self as oppossed to superficial attention to the self. Rei's is hardest for me to say, as the story around her isn't as clear, or at least it didn't seem that way to me; it seems to be an amalgalm of the two; she takes from Asuka in that she lacks a large amount of ego and in some ways amounts to walking self sacrifice through hatred, and the hatred and lack of selfish direction is reminicent of Shinji. Their issues are remarkably similar when boiled down.
3. Of course it did, examples of this are easy to remember, the very first ep shows something of an ex of this in the fact that upon seeing Rei injured, Shinji decides to pilot despite being completely ignorant of the inner workings of Eva; everyone remembers ep9 and the fact that coordination allowed victory, and without social interaction
the pilots wouldn't have any reason to fight.
4. Depends on what you mean by during the show. If you mean by during the solid plot, i.e. eps 1-24, then I would have to say Shinji, as his psyche was the one explored the most, although all the characters grew towards each other in their own weird way. During the last two eps I'd have to say Shinji as well; they are almost completely devoted to the pilot's journey's to find love for themselves, and a bias towards Shinji is again shown in this endeavor. (which I personally don't mind.)
5. Intelligence with which it was written. There was no compromise which is why it still garners such a polarized opinion today with people; some recognize it for what it is, and some see it as pretentious. The way Ano decided to go ahead and write the last two eps is something I have to say I like the most; it's somewhat difficult to find anything else like it, and if you understand it, well then it's easy to see the beauty, and thought in which it was carried out.
Why thank you, very detailed. You have been very helpful.
Hope this story fuels your enthusiasm.
Hum... I tried to write a book for real once. While the story itself is a challenge the struggle was what I were trying to convey and find the words to convey it. Words that would let the reader find it's own meanings to.
I want to add a work in this thread: Kakukaku Shikajika.
Reading it now and finding beautiful (it's autobiographical).
I might have read that before. As amusing as the story is, the whole thing about being useless without good SR is something I want to avoid. If anything, AdEva has a lot of Rebuild-like super-robot shenanigans. I'd like to stay closer to the television show.
But hey, if someone wants to use another eva to bludgeon the enemy, why not? Hopefully it won't be because they're otherwise useless in combat.
Both really. Everyone knows by now that the Christian "symbolism" doesn't actually mean anything, but that doesn't change the fact that it's all over the place. Trying to create depth by trotting out a conga line of symbolic props like Utena was always a retarded idea anyways.
>Trying to create depth by trotting out a conga line of symbolic props
But that's not what happened. The Christianity in Eva has nothing to do with Christianity as we see it, but as Nerv sees it.
Symbolism not meaning anything is part of the problem, but not the whole problem. What I'm saying is that there's more to a show than whether or not it's deep; above anything else it needs to be a good and well-told story. If deep was the only requirement Eva could be transformed into a set of powerpoint slides or we'd all just read a philosophy text instead. I don't question Eva and Utena's depth, but I'm very critical of both shows because I think they are poorly told and executed. And since I believe the most important thing a story has above a philosophy paper is the ability to empathize and connect to the viewer, I don't care how meaningful a set of symbolic props are supposed to be if they just get tossed out there carelessly the way these shows do it.
Ok, while I dont think Eva is particularly philosophical. Its characters are still very dense and complex on a psychological level.
The issue with calling almost any work "philosophical" is that it requires the right pretense. When Shinji is questioning his existence, it is because he's thinking of the big picture in a metaphysical (big picture) sense, he's thinking about as it relates to him and how others value him.
While its not anime this is something I would consider a great example. In Blade Runner when Deckard kills replicants he feels remorse, and he's left with a philosophical quandry over the ethics of killing things that seem so human. So any internal philosophizing or conflict is over a pretense that relates to ethics as a whole, "Is it right to kill something that thinks and feels like a human, even though it isn't?". (This is including that Deckard is also aware of the social perspective on replicants)
Shinji is focused on HIS big picture
Deckard is focused on THE big picture
Shinji isn't being philosophical, he's psychologically analyzing himself.
Also Misatofags unite.
I believe that the cross-shaped explosions don't mean anything, which is the first thing that plebs think of when it comes to Eva's symbolism, but I also think that Eva still has a ton of meaningful symbolism and imagery.
>crosses mean nothing
I agree with this, although when I first saw the show way back in the 90's I made the mistake of thinking that they meant something as well. You answered well.
>pages and pages talking about religious nonsense
It was awful, though I imagined Alyosha as a cute shota for some reason
Anna Karenina was better, delicious NTR
Not that anon, but it just feels like the wrong word to use to describe an anime. There are plenty of other words one could use, meaningful, thoughtful, etc. but philosophical sounds too high-minded for what we're talking about.
>Is it right to kill something that thinks and feels like a human, even though it isn't?
This is going to sound edgy but can someone explain what the huge deal with killing humans is anyways? I guess I get it if a character thinks its "morally wrong" to take a life, but what makes it so extra bad if its a person? Is it because its the same species or because they can think more deeply?
Most people have a natural aversion to killing other people because humans have significantly more intelligence (and thus more choice) than any other species. Therefore, killing someone else robs that person of their right to life and their freedom of choice. I personally would argue that this extends, to some extent, to other intelligent mammals, but it obviously doesn't apply to stuff like insects and plants.
Yeah, thinking about this kind of bothers me. If we ever encounter another species more intelligent than us, does that mean it is fair for them to treat us the way we treat livestock and other animals?
I had a debate with my best friend about this and I still don't really get. The general argument he provided was that morality is a human concept and therefore should benefit humans over other species. I dunno I pointed out how arbitrary it seemed but that was the argument.
In the context of Blade Runner, Deckard was concerned over the societal perspective on killing replicants because they were so human-like. Doesn't it seem contradictory to live in a society that is ok with killing something that is so much like them, something so alike that any distinction through terms seems pedantic or unwarranted in affecting the way those distinctions affect the society's ethics.
So, generally its "so bad" because of the society's perspective and personal perspective. And thats what Blade Runner deals with.
It mostly depends on how generous the alien species is. It's possible that they would simply grant us some degree of autonomy, but we'd ultimately be under their rule and most likely as second-class citizens.
It's also possible that we would be treated as pets. And honestly, people generally treat their pets pretty well. It's illegal to torture your dog (in civilized countries anyway) and stuff like that. So they do have some rights. I highly doubt humans have any sort of value as livestock (so many other animals breed much faster than us and grow quicker), so that's probably a needless worry.
Almost any moral stance is going to end up having its faults and internal quandries under the right circumstances. But yes, moral relativism is kinda of a heavy undertone throughout the story.
You should totally go see it though, incredibly well written.
I think the prospect of finding intelligent extraterrestrial life is extremely improbable, if you think about how specifically life evolved on Earth. There's no reason for other life to be anywhere near familiar organisms, in fact I think it'd be most likely for it to be inconceivably foreign. It'd probably be made of the same materials, or at least carbon-based, but the appearance of anything more than a microbe would probably be vastly different from anything on Earth. For example, if all you knew was animals, could you possibly imagine something as different but still perfectly functioning as a plant? And intelligence is such a specific, but vague thing, I think it's expecting an unrealistic coincidence for extraterrestrial life to have a humanlike mind. Either way, I hope I live to see the discovery of living organisms on other planets, that'd be truly spectacular.
>Also humans probably would be too dangerous/problematic to have as pets
Depends on their technology and own smarts.
>we are also no cute enough.
That's a matter of perspective in the end. For whatever it's worth, we're a lot less hairy than most species.
The scary thing is that it's perfectly possible for there to be some super-advanced alien species out there. I don't remember the exact timescale of the universe too well, but humans developed pretty late. There could be a species out there that started off with a habitable planet only a billion or two years after the big bang.
>I think it'd be most likely for it to be inconceivably foreign
That reminds me of "superintelligent shade of the colour blue"
Also for most of the earth history humans weren't around, for all we know aliens might have visited the dinosaurs
Fuck you, thinking about this stuff makes me really wish I were omniscient.
>tfw you'll never know everything about and in the universe(s) or be able to see everything from start to finish
As long as we all can agree that they're all shit compared to The Rose of Versailles.
Silly anon, IQ is not a clean cut indication of intelligence. Everyone is retarded in their own way, and everyone is intelligent in their own way, well the former is more common.
The exploding crosses left over by the angels don't mean much, at most it's a reference to the destruction of the ego.
However in other cases in represents the ego/self coming into contact with others. And then there's Misato's cross which is something different entirely.
Assuming if they have a similar human mentality.
Though I would think a species capable of intergalactic travel would be so advanced that it probably wouldn't need us as a food source or see us as any competition due to the near-infinite amount of resources they can gather from space.
>Implying Wuthering heights as one of the earliest depictions of social and mental deconstructions is shit tier
What 13 year old wrote this shit after their first English class
>I am designing a tabletop game in the spirit of NGE
Sounds interesting as hell.
1. I don't think they were that simplistic. They each definitely represented a different personality disorder, though most of them had similar motivations at their cores.
2. Most emotions work really. Really Asuka was the only time we saw a pilot get worse at piloting, and it was because she lost a lot of her will because she was completely outdone.
3. Mental condition was the primary factor in battle, if you missed that, you missed the entire anime.
4. Shinji grew the most, then Asuka, then Rei. Shinji ends up taking initiative and actively deciding he wants to exist. for him, this is pretty huge. Asuka was actually willing to express herself and show some of her weakness. She might've broken down toward the end, but she needed to break down eventually. Rei was basically set back to square one when she was killed, before that she would've shown the most growth by far. She basically had to learn what it means to be human from square one within the course of a few months.
5. The characters are what make the show. A cast that is easy to love, hate and relate to with a bucketload of emotional issues. Honorable mention for the setting though, it's post-apocalytic but not grimdark fallout-tier; modern society still exists to some extent.