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Why are people so picky when it comes to...
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Why are people so picky when it comes to deep anime? Everyone points out Ergo Proxy for the overuse of the word raison d'etre, so why not concentrate on the characters, the atmosphere, the great side-episodes (quiz show, disney ep). Same with Eva, the crosses seem to ruin everything for people. So what about the plot, characters, atmosphere? I can somewhat understand that many people don't like shows like Lain or Texhnolyze, because they are somewhat slow and one might get bored with them (I loved both). But lots of those shows despite having thought-provoking themes have great action or intrigue. Yet because of one element they label it as pretentious and it ruins the whole experience for them.
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>>119231896
Some people can't enjoy both deep and non-deep anime, anon. It's unfortunate, but true.
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>>119231949
I think that everyone that enjoys deep anime can enjoy non-deep anime. The other way around is the problem for some reason.
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It's easier to criticise things for their flaws than to appreciate them for their merits, this applies to far more than just anime.
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>Ergo Proxy
>Deep
hah
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>>119232432
True, but I don't see people being like this on /lit/ or even /tv/, at least it's far less common.
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>>119231896
Ergo Proxy was a waste of a good setting and I didn't like most of the cast. It trying to be super deep at the end and failing was only part of the reason I disliked it.
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>>119232619
What do you mean by "trying to be super deep"? That's called atmosphere, you know?
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What makes something deep?
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>>119232766
In anime? Usually just a unique setting and themes.
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>Same with Eva, the crosses seem to ruin everything for people.

I've yet to meet a single person that didn't like the crosses in Eva let alone had an issue with them.
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>>119232822
That makes them unique, by your own definition. But not deep.
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>>119232732
Atmosphere is one thing, but the entire last episode is another. The general feeling of the show was fine before then, even though it wasted its initial gritty cyberpunk aesthetic.
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>>119232847
People point out that it had pretentious religious symbolism and when you ask them what they meant they practically always point out the crosses.
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>>119232766
Complex narrative and good execution?
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>>119232890
I don't use this term. I'm talking about the anime fanbase.
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>>119232766
When you have to actually pay attention into dialogue.
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Deep and DEEP are two different things. For example, I'd consider Planetes much deeper than NGE, NGE gets far too lost in imagery to actually make its point with any clarity, thus the constant speculation that leads to it often being considered deep as fuck.
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>>119232766
Substantiated symbolism that conveys the themes of the show, or having some sort of major allegory in the plot that gives the work greater meaning.
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>>119231896
I wanted to like Ergo Proxy, I really did, it had everything going for it in the beginning but it just shat all over it with its forced romance and shonen adventure.
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>>119231896
Even if you ignore the religious and psychological bullshit, Eva is still an extremely entertaining action series, with really intense battles with the Angels.
I think that's why I love it.
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>>119232299
>The other way around is the problem for some reason.

It's because those people are stupid anon.
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You need to understand that the more intelligent a film is the harder it is to explain. You can discuss many western films with ease because they're so much simpler and 2 dimensional than much of what Japan makes.

End of Evangelion is Hideaki Anno's multifaceted social commentary and deconstruction of the mecha genre. Only the highly educated can realize the multiple layers of complexity, and actually be able to understand and appreciate such a highly intelligent masterpiece. Much unlike western media:

Vertigo is simpler than most slice of life anime. If this is you sceptic's idea of an intelligent film I laugh at you with pity.

Rosebud XDD is nothing compared to any of anno's stuff.

Kubric made ending of 2001 a space odyssey incoherent and it just didn't make sense without reading the book. Everything other was style over substance. Like anything from Kubrick.

I will give the west some credit though: Bresson, Tarkovsky, Godard, and Bergman have come close. But still, none of their works have managed to achieve the level of depth and perfection found in End of Evangelion.

Things on the scale of evangelion require a class to be explained, not some random bloke on the internet with limited time. If you fail to see this I don't know how to make it any simpler anymore. The japanese are truly amazing,man. I mean look at their amazing history and culture.They have the best literature in the history of the world. So why are people surprised that they made the best movie ever?
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>>119233112
Where did you copy this from?
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>>119233037
What are more examples of deep and DEEP anime?
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Directors are just clumsy.

When Anno puts crosses and christianism elements in Evas because "it looks cool" that's incompetance to me, however that's fine because crosses are trivial compared to what the show actually offers.

About the "Raison d'être" spamming in Ergo proxy, the director wants you to understand the idea behind the show, but doesn't really know how.
Add the fact that the show goes all deep very suddenly, they were running out of time to talk about what they wanted.

Don't even get me started with Oshii who starts impromptu Descartes discussions randomly because he can.
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>>119233112
I know this is pasta but I don't get how people say you have to read the book to understand that the monolith of 2001 is what makes humans evolve.
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>>119233184
>that picture
>no Takahata
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>>119233237
Don't make me feel bad for posting a random pic.
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>>119233184
>When Anno puts crosses and christianism elements in Evas because "it looks cool" that's incompetance to me, however that's fine because crosses are trivial compared to what the show actually offers.
Anno never really said that, it was some production assistant. Plus, Anno said there's no meaning in general, which is obviously not true. People shouldn't trust too much in what he says. In interviews he's almost as bad of a troll as Ikuhara.
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>>119233161
>DEEP
Kara no Kyoukai
Ergo Proxy
GitS '95
(to a lesser extent)
Psycho Pass
Texholyze
Kino no Tabi
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>>119233184
I don't get the idea behind this pic actually. Some of these are really good. Tokyo Godfathers wasn't Kon's best but it was still fun and had a great cast.
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>>119233336
No, '95 genuinely has depth to it. Psycho Pass, while enjoyable, thought it was a lot more profound than it was.
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>>119233336
Kara no Kyoukai I definitely agree as well with Psycho Pass. Kino no Tabi, Ergo Proxy and Texhnolyze may have had elements. But why GitS? The second film sure, but the first one definitely doesn't classify.
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>>119231896
>Everyone points out Ergo Proxy for the overuse of the word raison d'etre, so why not concentrate on the characters, the atmosphere, the great side-episodes (quiz show, disney ep).

I have no memory of that phrase grating on me, but the characters didn't connect, the plot didn't seem to have much of an idea about anything, and despite a deep love for surrealistic mindfucks the side episodes here did nothign for me.

>Same with Eva, the crosses seem to ruin everything for people.
Who gives a shit about crosses? What I really love about Eva is the feeling of immense power and might. The Eva units are barely, or not at all, controlled God-Monsters, and Yui is one scary bitch.

>Lain or Texhnolyze
I liked those.

>Yet because of one element they label it as pretentious and it ruins the whole experience for them.
Or you know, they go for the easiest trolling angle. And then they get in a screaming match with >>119233112

>>119233184
>Don't even get me started with Oshii who starts impromptu Descartes discussions randomly because he can.
Be kind to the man, it's just his way of self-medicating.
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>>119233407
Because I felt like including bait in my post.
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>>119233336
>KnK
>deep

Heh
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>>119233378
>No, '95 genuinely has depth to it
As much as piece of paper.
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>… his gifts as a director are enormous. I just can’t take him very seriously as a thinker — and that’s where we seem to differ, because he does. His message is what he cares about these days, and, like most movie messages, it could be written on the head of a pin.
>>
Because with other stuff you know there's a low standard, if you wanna step up and actually make us think at least try.
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>>119233319
>Anno said there's no meaning in general, which is obviously not true.
About Eva as a whole I completely agree, but for the christianism reference I'm not so sure.
Well, I could see a conection between crosses and salvation for Shinji but honestly, christianism is so ideologicaly wide you could connect anything to it.
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>>119233599
These are great
http://flavorwire.com/200745/the-30-harshest-filmmaker-on-filmmaker-insults-in-history
>4. Ingmar Bergman on Jean-Luc Godard:
>“I’ve never gotten anything out of his movies. They have felt constructed, faux intellectual, and completely dead. Cinematographically uninteresting and infinitely boring. Godard is a fucking bore. He’s made his films for the critics. One of the movies, Masculin, Féminin, was shot here in Sweden. It was mind-numbingly boring.”
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>>119233710
Christianism? Anyways, the crosses are supposed to represent sacrifice, I thought that's rather obvious. Especially Misato's cross. Her father gives her the cross the moment he saves her and dies himself and she does the same to Shinji. With the angels they sacrifice both parts of the city and their own sanity to fight them.
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Cause most people into anime are hormonal teens that pass off anything they don't understand as pretentious, deepfaggotry etc.

Most fans draw the line of understanding at shit on the same intellectual level as the walking dead. Not saying that what they enjoy is necessarily wrong, they can watch whatever they want, but most fans watch anime for entertainment. They don't want to think, they like when everything is spelled out for them.
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>>119231896
"Deep" is just another buzzword used by people who want their favorite shows to be considered more interesting than they actually are.

No need to take it seriously.
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>>119233905
I feel kind of bad that you might actually think that way (if you aren't baiting)

You don't think any media can be remotely deep or thought provoking?

Are you a zombie or possibly had a frontal lobotomy as a child?
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>>119233989
>thought provoking
Yes. But even a simple adventure movie can be true provoking to some people.
>deep
This is a meaningless word. Deep in what way? Emotional depth? Complicated structure? Hard to understand symbolism?
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>>119233905

this. There's deep anime which tries hard to be deep and then there's animes that make you think. Learn the difference.
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>>119233989
Nah, I'm actually more against the (over)use of the word "deep" itself because it's too ambiguous to describe a good/great piece.

>thought-provoking
That's actually a better word to use.
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>>119232766
The opinion of an audience that likes to think of itself as smart.
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>>119234062
"deep" is the opposite of "superficial", theoretically, it just means that what's going on isn't shown or told directly.

Which is why Ghost in the Shell, for instance, isn't very deep at all, since it directly spells out almost every idea it tries to convey.
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>>119234099
>That's a better word to use
You mean like how saying you dislike something is probably 95% more accurate than just screaming it's shit at the top of your lungs? Not gunna happen here
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Deep like how deep I'm gonna b in ur mum m8

You basically answered yourself, deep is a generalization, there are a bunch of different kinds of deep

I'm tired and on a phone don't get testy with me boy

>>119234066
Mem arro animes kekkerino
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>>119234140
>it just means that what's going on isn't shown or told directly
that's just one aspect of depth. it can also mean thematic depth, which there's no doubt gits has, even if it sledgehammers you with it.

besides, gits: sac doesn't really spell out the ideas behind the narrative until motoko and the laughing man start quoting philosophers and writers at each other in like the last episode. the '95 movie, i grant you, is a lot worse.

honestly i think nge is way worse than gits: sac in its lack of subtlety. you have literal externalizations of psychology to convey ideas about psychoanalysis. sometimes i wonder why anno didn't just write a non-fictional memoir.

on that note, i don't like monogatari.
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>>119234223
Thought-provoking at least tells me that you found the show's themes/atmosphere/setting to be interesting.

What does deep tell me? Fucking nothing.
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>>119233336
>>119233378
>>119233407
Psycho Pass might have been pretentious, but I think people get too hung up on the characters referencing literature/philosophy. Makishima was very theatrical and pretentious by nature, Saiga was a professor of psychology who lived as a hermit, and Kougami was a passionate student of Saiga.

The references never really felt forced to me. Especially compared to Ergo Proxy which I also enjoyed, albeit not nearly as much.
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>>119231896
Anime will never be deep. When it tries to deep, it becomes pretentious, just like EVA.
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>>119231896
I disliked Ergo Proxy because it was grimdark that I could literally just watch it that night because during the day it was impossible to make out what was happening on the screen.

This was back when I had a CRT monitor. I don't feel any need to revisit it.
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>>119234435
>people still think Eva was "deep"
>still find it hard to understand and "Le mindfuck XD"
>using the word pretentious to justify not bein able to understand babbies first philosophy concepts in Eva

Literally under 18 years of age
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>>119234496
Fuck me and fuck the delete delay.
>it was so grimdark
>I could literally only watch it at night
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>>119234354
so what do you like?
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I'm that guy that just posts "raison d'etre" in every Ergo Proxy thread I see.
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>>119234384
>What does deep tell me? Fucking nothing.
the ideal "deep" anime has a developed character-driven narrative that explores complex and relevant ideas through its story e.g. gits: sac and postmodern simulation, hyperreality, etc., nge and psychoanalysis.

the word is more descriptive and less subjective than thought-provoking.

>>119234435
>pretentious
i hate this buzzword. it doesn't describe anything about a work; it just ascribes this insecure dishonesty to the writer, like they must be *trying* to make something seem more complex than it is. it doesn't mean anything unless you can prove that intent. even something like aku no hana, which was the totally style over substance, isn't worth calling pretentious because i don't think it ever pretends that it's telling a more complex or multifaceted story (it's basically black rock shooter with more sexual shame and without the magical girl genre conventions).
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>>119234716
I used pretentious simply because its convenient. When an anime tries to be deep and explain philosophical values (like EVA and Christianity) I'm always thinking that it could be explained so much simpler and doesn't need to be so complicated. So it comes off as the writer trying too hard.
So basically, I can't into art.
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>>119234867
>EVA and Christianity
>I can't into art
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>>119234867
EVA uses christian symbolism as a naming theme, nothing more, nothing less.

Or do you bitch about every single piece of literature that got anything named "Poseidon" in it because MUH ALLUSIONS?
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>>119233037
EVA is being called deep because of the psychological themes, not because of hurr christian imagery.
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>>119231896
Ergo Proxy is pretentious as hell, famously being one of the rare examples of a show that can be legitimately described that way. It tries incredibly hard to come across as complex and intelligent, but there's minimal substance behind all the philosopher name-dropping.

Most of Eva's permeating Christian symbolism means nothing (Anno admitted it almost as soon as the show aired), but the show still carries a bevy of nuanced concepts. The Christian symbolism is more an issue with people who read too much into it, although it does serve as a good structural element for the series.

Lain's not flashy and full of giant sexbots fighting with gatling lasers, but not an action series so who fucking cares. It just needs to convey its ideas well and it does.

>>119234354
Yeah SAC brings the hammer to the party, it just tends to not start swinging it until after everything's happened and you've had a chance to figure out most of it yourself.
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>>119235096
>psychological themes
But those were simple as hell. I'm not really into EVA, so I just went by what I glanced at in the threads. I haven't watched anything past the original series/EoE.
>>
I just want an anime that makes me feel things.
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>>119235114
>Most of Eva's permeating Christian symbolism means nothing
But Anno never actually said that, he only said he used the word Evangelion because it sounded cool. The religious elements in the show do serve a purpose.

Plus, Anno just like Ikuhara said that there's now meaning to his show in general. I'm pretty sure you shouldn't treat what they say in interviews seriously.
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>>119235199
>>119235199
>but those were simple as hell
not when you´re part of the target audience i.e. a depressed NEET in his early twenties

EVA was basically Anno processing his depression after he got out of the looney bin
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>>119234716
>the ideal "deep" anime has a developed character-driven narrative that explores complex and relevant ideas through its story
Which is exactly the problem when you realize that the same description can be applied to a generic Gundam show even though the "war is hell" and political manoeuvring themes have been done to death. Hell, I could even say Psycho Pass 2 was "deep".
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>>119235553
>generic Gundam show
>generic
should also have written that a deep show should not hold to genre conventions or should at least subvert them. gundam isn't deep because it has been done to death. all the themes and characters are generic.

psycho pass is just a poor man's gits:sac. it's generic, especially when it comes to the cast. the characters are heavily exaggerated and archetypal. a deep show should have believable characters.
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>>119235114
>Most of Eva's permeating Christian symbolism means nothing (Anno admitted it almost as soon as the show aired), but the show still carries a bevy of nuanced concepts. The Christian symbolism is more an issue with people who read too much into it, although it does serve as a good structural element for the series.

My (possibly incorrect) view on the Christian symbolism is that it's just the nomenclature Seele decided to use. Weird super powerful aliens? Angels. The thing that begat them? Lets call him Adam. This thing we made from Adam? Eve, obviously. The thing that gave birth to us? Uhh... Lilith? I guess that makes us Lilim? Whatever. Oh, we'll need a cool codeword for our agenda, too. How about Dead Sea Scrolls?
>>
>>119231896
She has real pretty eyes despite them being artificial. I could look at this picture all day.
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>>119233755
>That Tim Burton Kevin Smith thing
That's great, althought Tim comes out as a dick.
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>>119235749
Since I actually consider stuff like Tatami Galaxy or Perfect Blue to be thought-provoking despite not necessarily being "deep" by your definition, let's agree to disagree then I guess.

Have a good one anon.
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>>119236077
Great taste, although I still have 3 episodes of TTG to finish.
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>>119236004
I think her eyes are gross, they're bulging in a weird way and there's too much white
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>>119231896
Because beyond the fact that it was constantly parroting passages from a philosophy 101 textbook Ergo Proxy was entirely unremarkable. The characters were flat, the art was inconsistent, and without a compelling plot to back it up the atmosphere just made it boring. The ED was good, though.
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>>119236077
fair enough. i think perfect blue is the closest anime has come to hitchcock and one of the best movies ever made in any medium. by my definition, i think it's "deep" because it concerns a psychological believable character in a story about identity and her relationship with the symbolic representations of her self that control her. it's also an obvious comment on the idol industry.
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>>119233336
>KnK
>No Lain
>No Eva
Shit list.
>>
>>119235553
A couple of the Gundam series do get pretty deep, but usually they're too caught up on trying to be cool or masturbatorily reproducing elements of earlier Gundam series. And the original that half the franchise is a shit copy of is 60% BUY ALL OUR PLAYSETS AND TOYS
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>>119233336
Kino's Journey was generally thought-provoking without shoving philoso-babble down your throat.
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>>119236347
>genuinely
Fixed.
>>
Let's talk about Ghost Hound.
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>>119236282
Satoshi Kon's movies have always been fucking god-tier.

Shame that we'll never get to watch Dreaming Machine. ;_;
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>>119236422
>Let's talk about Ghost Hound
You mean "let's fuck up everything at the last few episodes" the anime?

still mad
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>>119234722
You can't make something great without being pretentious
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>>119236429
>Dreaming Machine
I'm pretty sure it will not be a great movie
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>>119236631
That's pretty pretentious.
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>this kills the deep
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>>119237372
>tfw my uncle is dying from this
>tfw he will be dead in the next 2 months.
Never take life for granted thats for sure.
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>>119235114
>>119235466
Like this Anon said he only used the word Evangelion. Anno has been quoted saying many things about the series, who knows what the true statements are. But what is true is that people tend to blame God when they're at there lowest points in their life, just like Anno was during the creation of Evangelion. Ever wondered why its the fight against the "Angels"? Coincidence? I don't think so.
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>>119237500
>Two months

That's a damn long time for pancancer.

He might actually wish for death long before those months are over.
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>>119231896
>Ergo Proxy
Watching this for the first time now.
Im at episode 7-8 right now. Why do people keep trashing it on /a/?
Maybe I havent gotten to the bad part yet, but so far the atmosphere is good and the world and mystery are interesting. Its not god tier or anything but its good.

Im also a little biased because cyberpunk-esque stuff are some of my favorite settings
>>
The more thoughtful something is, the more it demands critique. Light entertainment isn't really worth tearing apart because it's just fluff, but if a show is trying to make a serious point, then debate is a natural part of taking the show seriously.

In the same vein, as the art in a cartoon becomes more detailed, flaws become more apparent.
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>>119236004
Motoko is beautiful.
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>>119236269
>philosophy 101
You guys are always saying "philosophy 101" or "psychology 101" but the thing is, most people didn't take these classes. Most anime viewers certainly didn't. So it's not that obvious or recognizable to them. I think it's important to keep that in mind. Never underestimate the audience but don't overestimate them either.
>>
>ctrl + f Limit Cycle
>0 results

If you want an anime so pretentious that you need a excavator to find how deep it is underneath it's ass, look no further than this piece of shit. All this years, have I never find anything more pretentious in it's presentation, narrative and feel than this abomination. It makes both Psycho-Pass and Ergo Proxy seem straightforward as fuck and only 18 minutes.
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>>119231896
Because newfags don't know how to be picky and this way you can point them out
If only mods did their work
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>>119241554
>Limit Cycle
Oh, it's that Genius Party short.
Holy shit, that thing was ridiculous.
>>
>>119240658
It draws so much hate because it's tries extremely hard to appear smarter than it is and fails spectacularly.
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>>119231896
The issue with Ergo Proxy is that it felt like the emphasis was on the DEEP elements, and so when it failed to deliver on that front, it really hurt the show. It just thought it was much deeper than it was, like Psycho-Pass, except Psycho Pass had 2ch saving the world and other shenanigans.
>>
>>119241828
So far everything seems pretty straight forward.
Do you mean intelligent as in philosophically, or in that its plot is complex/contrived?
Seems like just your standard "dystopian world with robots" so far, other than the proxy.
>>
>>119242566
>2ch saving the world
I had forgotten that.
Still, I actually enjoyed Psycho Pass.
It didnt quite follow through but it was interesting and had some good characters and ideas.
Not amazing but at least a good solid show. 7/10 or thereabouts Id say.
>>
>>119242566
>It just thought it was much deeper than it was, like Psycho-Pass
I don't believe that Psycho Pass tries to be particularly deep, or that it thinks it's deeper than it is.
>>
Reminder that deep and thought-provoking/thoughtful are two entirely different yet tangentially related things.

Deep refers to difficulty of interpretation. Thought-provoking/thoughtful is more or less what it says on the tin: there's subject matter that is worthy of serious consideration. Something that is deep is not necessarily thought-provoking/thoughtful. Although I'll get crucified for this, I'd argue that Lain is an example of that. Something like a Yuasa show is thought-provoking but not deep, since no effort is made to obfuscate the thematic elements and half the time the viewer just gets told the point in dialog at the end.
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