Why are people so picky when it comes to deep anime? Everyone points out Ergo Proxy for the overuse of the word raison d'etre, so why not concentrate on the characters, the atmosphere, the great side-episodes (quiz show, disney ep). Same with Eva, the crosses seem to ruin everything for people. So what about the plot, characters, atmosphere? I can somewhat understand that many people don't like shows like Lain or Texhnolyze, because they are somewhat slow and one might get bored with them (I loved both). But lots of those shows despite having thought-provoking themes have great action or intrigue. Yet because of one element they label it as pretentious and it ruins the whole experience for them.
Atmosphere is one thing, but the entire last episode is another. The general feeling of the show was fine before then, even though it wasted its initial gritty cyberpunk aesthetic.
Deep and DEEP are two different things. For example, I'd consider Planetes much deeper than NGE, NGE gets far too lost in imagery to actually make its point with any clarity, thus the constant speculation that leads to it often being considered deep as fuck.
I wanted to like Ergo Proxy, I really did, it had everything going for it in the beginning but it just shat all over it with its forced romance and shonen adventure.
Even if you ignore the religious and psychological bullshit, Eva is still an extremely entertaining action series, with really intense battles with the Angels.
I think that's why I love it.
You need to understand that the more intelligent a film is the harder it is to explain. You can discuss many western films with ease because they're so much simpler and 2 dimensional than much of what Japan makes.
End of Evangelion is Hideaki Anno's multifaceted social commentary and deconstruction of the mecha genre. Only the highly educated can realize the multiple layers of complexity, and actually be able to understand and appreciate such a highly intelligent masterpiece. Much unlike western media:
Vertigo is simpler than most slice of life anime. If this is you sceptic's idea of an intelligent film I laugh at you with pity.
Rosebud XDD is nothing compared to any of anno's stuff.
Kubric made ending of 2001 a space odyssey incoherent and it just didn't make sense without reading the book. Everything other was style over substance. Like anything from Kubrick.
I will give the west some credit though: Bresson, Tarkovsky, Godard, and Bergman have come close. But still, none of their works have managed to achieve the level of depth and perfection found in End of Evangelion.
Things on the scale of evangelion require a class to be explained, not some random bloke on the internet with limited time. If you fail to see this I don't know how to make it any simpler anymore. The japanese are truly amazing,man. I mean look at their amazing history and culture.They have the best literature in the history of the world. So why are people surprised that they made the best movie ever?
Directors are just clumsy.
When Anno puts crosses and christianism elements in Evas because "it looks cool" that's incompetance to me, however that's fine because crosses are trivial compared to what the show actually offers.
About the "Raison d'être" spamming in Ergo proxy, the director wants you to understand the idea behind the show, but doesn't really know how.
Add the fact that the show goes all deep very suddenly, they were running out of time to talk about what they wanted.
Don't even get me started with Oshii who starts impromptu Descartes discussions randomly because he can.
>When Anno puts crosses and christianism elements in Evas because "it looks cool" that's incompetance to me, however that's fine because crosses are trivial compared to what the show actually offers.
Anno never really said that, it was some production assistant. Plus, Anno said there's no meaning in general, which is obviously not true. People shouldn't trust too much in what he says. In interviews he's almost as bad of a troll as Ikuhara.
Kara no Kyoukai I definitely agree as well with Psycho Pass. Kino no Tabi, Ergo Proxy and Texhnolyze may have had elements. But why GitS? The second film sure, but the first one definitely doesn't classify.
>Everyone points out Ergo Proxy for the overuse of the word raison d'etre, so why not concentrate on the characters, the atmosphere, the great side-episodes (quiz show, disney ep).
I have no memory of that phrase grating on me, but the characters didn't connect, the plot didn't seem to have much of an idea about anything, and despite a deep love for surrealistic mindfucks the side episodes here did nothign for me.
>Same with Eva, the crosses seem to ruin everything for people.
Who gives a shit about crosses? What I really love about Eva is the feeling of immense power and might. The Eva units are barely, or not at all, controlled God-Monsters, and Yui is one scary bitch.
>Lain or Texhnolyze
I liked those.
>Yet because of one element they label it as pretentious and it ruins the whole experience for them.
Or you know, they go for the easiest trolling angle. And then they get in a screaming match with >>119233112
>Don't even get me started with Oshii who starts impromptu Descartes discussions randomly because he can.
Be kind to the man, it's just his way of self-medicating.
>… his gifts as a director are enormous. I just can’t take him very seriously as a thinker — and that’s where we seem to differ, because he does. His message is what he cares about these days, and, like most movie messages, it could be written on the head of a pin.
>Anno said there's no meaning in general, which is obviously not true.
About Eva as a whole I completely agree, but for the christianism reference I'm not so sure.
Well, I could see a conection between crosses and salvation for Shinji but honestly, christianism is so ideologicaly wide you could connect anything to it.
These are great
>4. Ingmar Bergman on Jean-Luc Godard:
>“I’ve never gotten anything out of his movies. They have felt constructed, faux intellectual, and completely dead. Cinematographically uninteresting and infinitely boring. Godard is a fucking bore. He’s made his films for the critics. One of the movies, Masculin, Féminin, was shot here in Sweden. It was mind-numbingly boring.”
Christianism? Anyways, the crosses are supposed to represent sacrifice, I thought that's rather obvious. Especially Misato's cross. Her father gives her the cross the moment he saves her and dies himself and she does the same to Shinji. With the angels they sacrifice both parts of the city and their own sanity to fight them.
Cause most people into anime are hormonal teens that pass off anything they don't understand as pretentious, deepfaggotry etc.
Most fans draw the line of understanding at shit on the same intellectual level as the walking dead. Not saying that what they enjoy is necessarily wrong, they can watch whatever they want, but most fans watch anime for entertainment. They don't want to think, they like when everything is spelled out for them.
I feel kind of bad that you might actually think that way (if you aren't baiting)
You don't think any media can be remotely deep or thought provoking?
Are you a zombie or possibly had a frontal lobotomy as a child?
Yes. But even a simple adventure movie can be true provoking to some people.
This is a meaningless word. Deep in what way? Emotional depth? Complicated structure? Hard to understand symbolism?
Nah, I'm actually more against the (over)use of the word "deep" itself because it's too ambiguous to describe a good/great piece.
That's actually a better word to use.
"deep" is the opposite of "superficial", theoretically, it just means that what's going on isn't shown or told directly.
Which is why Ghost in the Shell, for instance, isn't very deep at all, since it directly spells out almost every idea it tries to convey.
>That's a better word to use
You mean like how saying you dislike something is probably 95% more accurate than just screaming it's shit at the top of your lungs? Not gunna happen here
Deep like how deep I'm gonna b in ur mum m8
You basically answered yourself, deep is a generalization, there are a bunch of different kinds of deep
I'm tired and on a phone don't get testy with me boy
Mem arro animes kekkerino
>it just means that what's going on isn't shown or told directly
that's just one aspect of depth. it can also mean thematic depth, which there's no doubt gits has, even if it sledgehammers you with it.
besides, gits: sac doesn't really spell out the ideas behind the narrative until motoko and the laughing man start quoting philosophers and writers at each other in like the last episode. the '95 movie, i grant you, is a lot worse.
honestly i think nge is way worse than gits: sac in its lack of subtlety. you have literal externalizations of psychology to convey ideas about psychoanalysis. sometimes i wonder why anno didn't just write a non-fictional memoir.
on that note, i don't like monogatari.
Psycho Pass might have been pretentious, but I think people get too hung up on the characters referencing literature/philosophy. Makishima was very theatrical and pretentious by nature, Saiga was a professor of psychology who lived as a hermit, and Kougami was a passionate student of Saiga.
The references never really felt forced to me. Especially compared to Ergo Proxy
which I also enjoyed, albeit not nearly as much.
I disliked Ergo Proxy because it was grimdark that I could literally just watch it that night because during the day it was impossible to make out what was happening on the screen.
This was back when I had a CRT monitor. I don't feel any need to revisit it.
>people still think Eva was "deep"
>still find it hard to understand and "Le mindfuck XD"
>using the word pretentious to justify not bein able to understand babbies first philosophy concepts in Eva
Literally under 18 years of age
>What does deep tell me? Fucking nothing.
the ideal "deep" anime has a developed character-driven narrative that explores complex and relevant ideas through its story e.g. gits: sac and postmodern simulation, hyperreality, etc., nge and psychoanalysis.
the word is more descriptive and less subjective than thought-provoking.
i hate this buzzword. it doesn't describe anything about a work; it just ascribes this insecure dishonesty to the writer, like they must be *trying* to make something seem more complex than it is. it doesn't mean anything unless you can prove that intent. even something like aku no hana, which was the totally style over substance, isn't worth calling pretentious because i don't think it ever pretends that it's telling a more complex or multifaceted story (it's basically black rock shooter with more sexual shame and without the magical girl genre conventions).
I used pretentious simply because its convenient. When an anime tries to be deep and explain philosophical values (like EVA and Christianity) I'm always thinking that it could be explained so much simpler and doesn't need to be so complicated. So it comes off as the writer trying too hard.
So basically, I can't into art.
EVA uses christian symbolism as a naming theme, nothing more, nothing less.
Or do you bitch about every single piece of literature that got anything named "Poseidon" in it because MUH ALLUSIONS?
Ergo Proxy is pretentious as hell, famously being one of the rare examples of a show that can be legitimately described that way. It tries incredibly hard to come across as complex and intelligent, but there's minimal substance behind all the philosopher name-dropping.
Most of Eva's permeating Christian symbolism means nothing (Anno admitted it almost as soon as the show aired), but the show still carries a bevy of nuanced concepts. The Christian symbolism is more an issue with people who read too much into it, although it does serve as a good structural element for the series.
Lain's not flashy and full of giant sexbots fighting with gatling lasers, but not an action series so who fucking cares. It just needs to convey its ideas well and it does.
Yeah SAC brings the hammer to the party, it just tends to not start swinging it until after everything's happened and you've had a chance to figure out most of it yourself.
But those were simple as hell. I'm not really into EVA, so I just went by what I glanced at in the threads. I haven't watched anything past the original series/EoE.
>Most of Eva's permeating Christian symbolism means nothing
But Anno never actually said that, he only said he used the word Evangelion because it sounded cool. The religious elements in the show do serve a purpose.
Plus, Anno just like Ikuhara said that there's now meaning to his show in general. I'm pretty sure you shouldn't treat what they say in interviews seriously.
>but those were simple as hell
not when you´re part of the target audience i.e. a depressed NEET in his early twenties
EVA was basically Anno processing his depression after he got out of the looney bin
>the ideal "deep" anime has a developed character-driven narrative that explores complex and relevant ideas through its story
Which is exactly the problem when you realize that the same description can be applied to a generic Gundam show even though the "war is hell" and political manoeuvring themes have been done to death. Hell, I could even say Psycho Pass 2 was "deep".
>generic Gundam show
should also have written that a deep show should not hold to genre conventions or should at least subvert them. gundam isn't deep because it has been done to death. all the themes and characters are generic.
psycho pass is just a poor man's gits:sac. it's generic, especially when it comes to the cast. the characters are heavily exaggerated and archetypal. a deep show should have believable characters.
>Most of Eva's permeating Christian symbolism means nothing (Anno admitted it almost as soon as the show aired), but the show still carries a bevy of nuanced concepts. The Christian symbolism is more an issue with people who read too much into it, although it does serve as a good structural element for the series.
My (possibly incorrect) view on the Christian symbolism is that it's just the nomenclature Seele decided to use. Weird super powerful aliens? Angels. The thing that begat them? Lets call him Adam. This thing we made from Adam? Eve, obviously. The thing that gave birth to us? Uhh... Lilith? I guess that makes us Lilim? Whatever. Oh, we'll need a cool codeword for our agenda, too. How about Dead Sea Scrolls?
Since I actually consider stuff like Tatami Galaxy or Perfect Blue to be thought-provoking despite not necessarily being "deep" by your definition, let's agree to disagree then I guess.
Have a good one anon.
Because beyond the fact that it was constantly parroting passages from a philosophy 101 textbook Ergo Proxy was entirely unremarkable. The characters were flat, the art was inconsistent, and without a compelling plot to back it up the atmosphere just made it boring. The ED was good, though.
fair enough. i think perfect blue is the closest anime has come to hitchcock and one of the best movies ever made in any medium. by my definition, i think it's "deep" because it concerns a psychological believable character in a story about identity and her relationship with the symbolic representations of her self that control her. it's also an obvious comment on the idol industry.
A couple of the Gundam series do get pretty deep, but usually they're too caught up on trying to be cool or masturbatorily reproducing elements of earlier Gundam series. And the original that half the franchise is a shit copy of is 60% BUY ALL OUR PLAYSETS AND TOYS
>Let's talk about Ghost Hound
You mean "let's fuck up everything at the last few episodes" the anime?
>tfw my uncle is dying from this
>tfw he will be dead in the next 2 months.
Never take life for granted thats for sure.
Like this Anon said he only used the word Evangelion. Anno has been quoted saying many things about the series, who knows what the true statements are. But what is true is that people tend to blame God when they're at there lowest points in their life, just like Anno was during the creation of Evangelion. Ever wondered why its the fight against the "Angels"? Coincidence? I don't think so.
Watching this for the first time now.
Im at episode 7-8 right now. Why do people keep trashing it on /a/?
Maybe I havent gotten to the bad part yet, but so far the atmosphere is good and the world and mystery are interesting. Its not god tier or anything but its good.
Im also a little biased because cyberpunk-esque stuff are some of my favorite settings
The more thoughtful something is, the more it demands critique. Light entertainment isn't really worth tearing apart because it's just fluff, but if a show is trying to make a serious point, then debate is a natural part of taking the show seriously.
In the same vein, as the art in a cartoon becomes more detailed, flaws become more apparent.
You guys are always saying "philosophy 101" or "psychology 101" but the thing is, most people didn't take these classes. Most anime viewers certainly didn't. So it's not that obvious or recognizable to them. I think it's important to keep that in mind. Never underestimate the audience but don't overestimate them either.
>ctrl + f Limit Cycle
If you want an anime so pretentious that you need a excavator to find how deep it is underneath it's ass, look no further than this piece of shit. All this years, have I never find anything more pretentious in it's presentation, narrative and feel than this abomination. It makes both Psycho-Pass and Ergo Proxy seem straightforward as fuck and only 18 minutes.
The issue with Ergo Proxy is that it felt like the emphasis was on the DEEP elements, and so when it failed to deliver on that front, it really hurt the show. It just thought it was much deeper than it was, like Psycho-Pass, except Psycho Pass had 2ch saving the world and other shenanigans.
So far everything seems pretty straight forward.
Do you mean intelligent as in philosophically, or in that its plot is complex/contrived?
Seems like just your standard "dystopian world with robots" so far, other than the proxy.
>2ch saving the world
I had forgotten that.
Still, I actually enjoyed Psycho Pass.
It didnt quite follow through but it was interesting and had some good characters and ideas.
Not amazing but at least a good solid show. 7/10 or thereabouts Id say.
Reminder that deep and thought-provoking/thoughtful are two entirely different yet tangentially related things.
Deep refers to difficulty of interpretation. Thought-provoking/thoughtful is more or less what it says on the tin: there's subject matter that is worthy of serious consideration. Something that is deep is not necessarily thought-provoking/thoughtful. Although I'll get crucified for this, I'd argue that Lain is an example of that. Something like a Yuasa show is thought-provoking but not deep, since no effort is made to obfuscate the thematic elements and half the time the viewer just gets told the point in dialog at the end.