In past three months I have read Itoshi no Karin, Koe no Katachi and watched Garden of words and all had such shit ends that left me enraged.
And I know in Shigatsu wa kimi no uso, Kaori will die.
So why can't Japanese even comprehend good romances even in fiction?
>Not reading the best romance manga
>Not reading one-shots
While cute girls are indeed cute and therefore have merit in themselves, that doesn't really answer my question. I have no fucking clue about Japanese culture beyond /a/ related media and Kurosawa movies, but I would imagine that romantic storytelling in serious Japanese literature is quite different than in anime and manga. Or maybe it's all the same, what do I know. Anyways, point is that I assume that people who have the ability, experience and desire to tell serious and genuinely good romance stories are more likely to write novels than manga or VNs or something else like that.
I don't consider it a good romance until they've comfortably shared a bath that wasn't the result of wacky hijinks or a misunderstanding.
And it also has actually realistic romances.
Japan knows what romance is. They just choose not to give it to us for a variety of reasons:
-they're too shy
-they want to milk the will they/won't they
-they wrote a love triangle and don't want to piss off one girl's fanbase
-they want to pretend they're deep and original by having an ambiguous bittersweet ending
You guys are missing the point. We want romance targeted towards boys and men, because we want to see cute girls. I don't mind having bishounen characters walking around shirtless, but I want to see them go after a moe school girl or Christmas Cake with large breasts.
No not a recommendation thread, I might not have read as much as many old fags but:
>Kimi ga Naita Hi
>Even Nodame cantabile
Dusk Maiden is the pinnacle of romance ecchi. It's required reading for anyone complaining about romance manga.
Fuck off back to your Nicholas Sparks novels.
When we say "romance", we mean we want to see a cute boy and a cute girl have a cute relationship that involves dating, hugging, hand holding, kissing, cuddling, and marriage. A little bit of drama is fine, but too much kills the manga.
That's because it's also written by sexually frustrated 30 year olds.
Which isn't a bad thing, they actually have experience with sex and romance unlike the vast majority of the retards that right shounen and harem "romance."
How are happy romances cliche when Japan has been giving us nothing but rage manga and ambiguous shit for decades?
At this point, happy, non-ambiguous manga are the original thing to do, because no one writes those anymore.
>When we say "romance", we mean we want to see a cute boy and a cute girl have a cute relationship that involves dating, hugging, hand holding, kissing, cuddling, and marriage.
Love Roma did this and it was boring repetitive shit.
Does romance is all about ending for you?
And not even you but a lot of people, it's like they all think nothing is good unless
>couple fucked multiply times
>repeating many times how much they love each other
Who cares about everything else, they didn't fuck, shit romance wah wah.
Stealth rec thread?
Horimiya is pretty good, except for the cliche best friend romance.
Oh fuck off. Life is messy, but rage shit like KNIM and other Seo Koji shit isn't realistic either. You just want drama and tragedy so you can feel like you're mature.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to read cute and idealized things in fiction. Most people see fiction as a means to escape the harsh realities of life.
>Does romance is all about ending for you?
Not OP, but, yes. Any romance manga with an ambiguous ending is a waste of your time. Any romance manga with a bad ending is time you'll never get back.
If you were engaged to someone and then they cheated on your and dumped you, you wouldn't say,
>Well, it's better to have loved and lost . . .
>And not even you but a lot of people, it's like they all think nothing is good unless
>>couple fucked multiply times
>>repeating many times how much they love each other
You're defending ambiguous shit, because that's what you've been fed all your life. If Japan had mostly romance manga where the couple's relationship was clear and they had lots of physical displays of affection, you wouldn't even consider defending ambiguous shit series.
Is is that bad to ask for good ending. The build the whole story toward it and give absolute shit endings.
See Nodame Cantabile or see what's going to happen in Shigatsu wa kimi no uso, excessive drama with a sad end.
I am now too frustrated with Jap romances.
Does anyone have the chart for this that shows how the chapters are connected?
I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make, it's not about whether the romance is full of drama or if it's idealized, it's about having actual progression, relationships that go somewhere and characters that act like humans.
A random office lady getting the high powered business executive to fall in love with her is the exact same scenario as the average high school girl getting the tall handsome badboy to fall in love with her.
You know, I really hated Nodame Cantabile after the first season or so. It felt so modern. Like, these are career oriented modern people who put their jobs before their romance.
>these are career oriented modern people who put their jobs before their romance.
That's normal. Getting money and paying the bills is generally more important than finding a date.
>Good romances don't happen in romance manga.
True, recently Naruto of all manga had better end than many romance manga.
even Rave and Inuyasha had better ends.
True anon, but isn't that why we read fiction to get a bit away from real life.
I disagree, not everyone wants a family or romance.
But everyone needs a roof over their heads and some kind of income.
You can easily have both, but being responsible and paying the bills should take higher priority, if only slightly higher.
>True, recently Naruto of all manga had better end than many romance manga.
Fuck off Narutofag
I recommend you to read Hirunaka no Ryuusei. It's pretty good though the ending is a bit rushed.
I disagree. A job is a job. If you lose a job, you can get another one. But a wife and children cannot be replaced.
Anyone who would put their career above their marriage doesn't deserve to be married.
Say whatever you want, but the latest Naruto movie does romance better than most romance manga out there. It gives the audience
-rescuing damsel in distress
Well, yes. If a non-romance story has a romance subplot, it's reasonable to except that that subplot has a satisfying pay off.
But this thread isn't even about that. We're talking about ROMANCE MANGA that don't even have satisfying conclusions for the romance. Series like
>Itoshi no Kana
>Mysterious Girlfriend X
are all romance, but have these ambiguous endings that make you want to kill someone.
>ambiguous endings that make you want to kill someone
Start with yourself.
>Well, yes. If a non-romance story has a romance subplot, it's reasonable to except that that subplot has a satisfying pay off.
Not necessarily. A romance subplot being there just to show that there is more to characters' lives than whatever the manga is about, without necessarily going anywhere, is okay. Romance ending badly is also not bad storytelling. Things like that have their place.
>Romance ending badly is also not bad storytelling. Things like that have their place.
Sure, occasionally. Maybe 15 out of 100 romance subplots should end that way.
The problem is it's more like 90 out of 100 romance subplots in anime and shounen/seinen manga that either have a bad ending or an ambiguous ending. It's actually rare to see two characters unambiguously become a couple and share a kiss.
No one is saying bad romances/tragedies don't happen in real life or should not be portrayed as such.
Watashitachi no Shiawase na Jikan is one of the best romantic manga even though it had a tragic end, but tragic end there was logical.
Beelzebub had a shit end romantically but that was expected from it, it wasn't a romantic manga.
Unnecessarily making shit ends that too in a romantic manga is BS
>You like romance?
>You must be a frustrated virgin.
>You like action?
>You must live a boring life.
>You like fiction?
>You must be miserable all the time.
I bet you think The Big Bang Theory is an accurate representation or real life, don't you?
>Beelzebub had a shit end romantically but that was expected from it, it wasn't a romantic manga.
I sort of agree with you, but it's dishonest and manipulative of battle shounen authors to tease romance, if they're not planning on doing anything with it.
It's just a cheap tactic to draw in female readers.
I would have hated reading Emma as it was serialized. Imagine waiting month to month during that huge arc where her and Mr. Jones are separated. It goes on for at least a year.
>Mysterious Girlfriend X
Fuck this series. What a fucking disappointment. I had so much promise in the beginning. It went to shit when it started embracing the "fetish of the week" bullshit. Even when it tried back away from that for a few arcs, the damage was already done. None of the larger arcs had any of the charm and atmosphere that the earlier chapters had. It just became routine and boring.
Then the creator had the gall to not even have them fucking kiss?! What. The. Fuck. So disappointing. Fuck you Ueshiba Riichi. Fuck you you lazy ass motherfuc-
japs can write good romance, just read angel desetsu. Best love story ever told.
God damn it, i love this manga so freaking much and that it does not have a proper anime hurts me.
>Unnecessarily making shit ends that too in a romantic manga is BS
Sure, that is also true. Though honestly what I find most annoying in a lot of romance manga isn't the ending, even if it is shit, but making romantic progression slow and drawn out as fuck. Even having the main couple get together at the end rather than near the beginning is starting to annoy me. Happy ending or sad ending, I generally prefer watching a couple deal with stuff together over watching two people stumble towards some kind of romantic conclusion.
>they wrote a love triangle and don't want to piss off one girl's fanbase
Number one reason why the nips don't make romance.
Some way or another, they always dig themselves into this hole.
It's called the carrot on a stick. Romance authors dangle the things you want to see in front of you to keep you reading. If you're lucky, they'll get together after 100 chapters. But look forward to waiting another 100 chapters just to see hand holding.
That's why Maybe is a hero of ours.
>I generally prefer watching a couple deal with stuff together over watching two people stumble towards some kind of romantic conclusion
True, anon that's the whole point of a "Romance manga", you can easily discount it in other genres but this should be of prominence in a romance manga.
But we usually get a long drawn sluggish story with either no conclusion or too much drama, that's why I hated winter Sonata, too much drama.
I wonder how much of that is genuinely beneficial for keeping people reading and how much is just some kind of mistaken belief, like "if so many mangaka are doing it it there must be a good reason for it". Is there genuinely little market for manga about a couple doing things as a couple?
>Is there genuinely little market for manga about a couple doing things as a couple?
If there wasn't, people wouldn't keep tuning in each week for the possibility of it happening.
Chuunibyou baited a kiss for more than an entire season, and suckers kept watching, hoping it would happen.
When it devolves into him slapping the shit out of his girlfriend and what that does to their relationship you're going to be awfully put out.
Unless it discards vast swaths of the web manga.
That's a good point. I'm just somewhat baffled about the prevalence of will-they-or-won't-they - type of romance compared to romance where the main couple gets together relatively early. There is stuff like Bonnouji, Kare Kano, Yandere Kanojo, Ore monogatari and so on, but drawing out the part where the main couple isn't yet a couple seems to be more common to an annoying degree. I have some difficulty seeing the appeal of that, especially in longer series.
Fuck all of you people who think that a good romance story requires gratuitous pandering with physical actions.
It's like all the idiots that ignored the entire point of Chuu2 just because they wanted to see a little kiss, cause clearly that's more important than actual development as a new, unsure and hesitant couple learning they should take things at their own pace.
A good romance manga is all about the ending
i like saikano for that, a decent ending
Kissing is the most basic and innocent thing a couple can do. It's not uncommon to kiss on the first date. There's absolutely no reason not to have a kiss.
You say you want to see development, but then you reject the idea that physical displays of affection are important. I'm sorry, but emotional love and physical love go hand in hand. You can't have a relationship without showing your love physically.
You know what's not an inherent part of love? Drama. Love doesn't need drama. Love doesn't need love triangles and betrayal. Sure, those things exist, but they aren't an inherent part of love. Physical displays of affection, however, are.
Obviously it depends on the writer, but there's a school of thought that there is no such thing as a happy ending thus all endings should be at the very least neutral if not outright tragedies.
People of this school of thought tend to gravitate towards romance, as tragedy is much easier to pull off with a close romance involved.
>almost exclusively forced melodrama and unrealistic relationships for the sake of fantasy/wish fulfillment
Next you'll tell me haremshit is good romance, too.
>kissing is the most basic innocent things a couple can do
>more so even than holding hands, hugging, or hand-shaking
But, no, seriously--kissing *can* be innocent or basic, or it can be the most intimate form of physical contact.
>its not uncommon to kiss on the first date
It's also not uncommon to not kiss on the first date.
>you cant have a relationship without showing your love physically
While this is true, you don't need to see someone's physical intimacy to understand that they love each other. You just want smut.
>you know whats not an inherent part of love? Drama. Love doesn't need drama
You know what's not an inherent part of logic? Blanket statements and over-simplification. Plenty of good relationships have their fair-share of drama, especially in the beginning. Stop being such a fucking faggot. If you need "physical intimacy" spoonfed to you, read the more daring seinen manga. If that isn't enough for you, just read vanilla porn.
Or, better yet, if you're so ass-blasted about how much you can't stand romance manga that you bull-headedly refuse to listen to any opinion that disagrees with yours, don't read the shit and don't make threads about it. /a/ is for *discussing* anime and manga, and screaming your opinions at people and refusing to listen to anyone who disagrees with you isn't a discussion.
>Anyone can do something like that.
And yet they don't.
>That's not "good" romance.
What is good romance then?
And don't give me this "KAREKANO SO GOOD WE GET TO SEE THEIR RELATIONSHIP DEVELOPING NATURALLY OVER TIME" garbage. Is rape a natural part of relationship development?
>You just want smut.
No, I want development. Do you know what one of the worst romances in anime and manga is? Okabe and Kurisu. They're both so painfully and unnaturally shy and tsundere, that it's like pulling teeth for them to even act pleasant around each other, even after they're dating.
Sure they kissed. Twice. Actually, three times. Who the fuck cares? Their relationship never develops. He confesses to her, then a year later, they're not even a real couple. He kisses her, then a year later, they're still at the same place. Then the sequel was announced and it was revealed that they've been dating for years, but haven't progressed. They're still in the awkward tsundere stage where they can't open up and be vulnerable around each other.
What kind of relationship is that?
More importantly, who wants to see that?
So no, I don't want to see smut or kisses for the sake of seeing smut and kisses. I want to see true love and a close, developing relationship. But the thing is that that necessarily involves kissing and other displays of affection.
>Plenty of good relationships have their fair-share of drama, especially in the beginning.
Not really. In general, if a couple is having that much trouble while still in the honeymoon phase, they're going to have more trouble down the line.
That said, no one is saying that there shouldn't be any drama. It's just that excessive drama, especially the contrived type, is used to pad out romance manga, in place of actual development.
>If you need "physical intimacy" spoonfed to you, read the more daring seinen manga.
Oh shut the fuck up. All of us here are romance aficionados who have read more than you. You couldn't tell us anything we haven't read if you wanted to.
This isn't an idle complaint. Japan really does suck at writing romance and 99 manga out of 100 are going to be disappointing.
Our Happy Time (and other Sahara Mizu shit)
Girl Friends (the yuri manga, not the one with slutty schoolgirls)
Midori no Hibi
Well, not all of them are mainly about romance, but I checked my list real quick and highlight those.
Holy crap, you must be high as fuck right now for your nonsense comment to make sense to you.
Japan is shit at writing romance because they never get anyone together, and if they do, they never show them developing a real relationship. It's either nothing, off screen romance, or a bunch of breaks up and drama.
They can, just don't read romance genre. The best romances are in shows that aren't classified as romance because the relationships feel natural instead of forced, they can write romance if they aren't trying.
Try reading Slice of Life.
There's a lot of good romance manga out there
it's just most of it are melodramatic shoujo manga and half the non-shoujo manga contains NTR
the other half of non-shoujo romance are usually good though
Why are you even singling out Japan in the first place shit romance stories are no more popular there than in the west. The only difference is that Japan focuses on the budding relationship and drama surrounding it and the west focuses on the drama within an established relationship.
I also honestly prefer Japan's "take it really fucking slow and steady to get anywhere" over the West's "we met, we fucked and we got married after talking four times".
They first have to focus on writing good female characters. Differing cultural standards only excuse bad writing to an extent.
Also, you are looking for good romance in the absolutely WRONG place. Going along with I typed above, manga and anime are primarily escapist fantasies for otakus, so yeah, you're just gonna get stories that show their warped view of romance.
OP if you're still here, check Bokura Ga Ita, Lovely Complex, Kare Kano.
I love romance myself but imo it's so hard to pull off well, those I mentioned are ones I remember fondly in anime.
Probably PlantES too, but that one is not purely romantic (though it's great)
>When it devolves into him slapping this shit out of his girlfriend
She was literally begging for it, anon.
>The only difference is that Japan focuses on the budding relationship and drama surrounding it and the west focuses on the drama within an established relationship.
That's the difference between Japanese and western romance?
If that's the case I much prefer Japanese romance.
I always refered to the former as romance for men and the latter as romance for women.
For a man love is all about the chase, "how do i become a man worthy of her?", "how do I prove my love to her?", "how do i protect her from animals who only want sex?" and once they're together it's a happy end of a male love story. Aaaand that's where the female love story is just beginning, "my prince charaming has finally found me", "wait, he's not really charming but an asshole", "wait, he's even more charming than I thought in the beginning" - happy end.
It would have been helpful if you'd stated a good western romance as a reference.... e.g. I liked "The Beauty and the Beast" can't think of any other good western romance stories right now.