Kanata > Type Mercury (ORT) = Ado Edem > Type Jupiter > Type Saturn > Type Moon (Crimson Moon) > Arcueid (Full power) > Type Pluto = The Six Sisters > Type Venus > Balor > Primordial Demons > True Demons > Primate Murder > Original Roa > Angra Mainyu > Zelretch (young) > Lancelot (F-15) > Gilgamesh (Vimana) > Counter Guardian Archer > Gilgamesh (Tohsaka) > Gilgamesh (Kotomine) = Arcueid (30%) > Dark Sakura > Dark Saber > Lancelot = Saber > 5th Berserker > Dark Berserker > 17th Roa (Elesia) > 4th Rider > Merem Solomon > 5th Lancer (optimal) > 4th Lancer = 5th Rider (Sakura/optimal) = 4th Caster (optimal) > 5th Lancer (Kotomine) = 5th Caster = 4th Caster (Ryuunosuke) > 5th Rider (Shinji) > Nrvnqsr = Clairvoyant Fujino = Kurogiri > Archer > Kouma > 5th Assassin = 4th Assassin > Aoko = Barthomeloi = Arcueid (6%) = Kojirou = Ciel = "Ryougi Shiki" = Soren Araya (within the Ogawa Building) > Gun God (Black Barrel) > Touko = El-Melloi = Night of Wallachia > Sion Tatari = Melty Blood Satsuki = R. Shiki = Akiha = Asagami Fujino = 18th Roa > Tohno SHIKI = Alba = Heaven's Feel Shirou = Kiri > Nanaya Shiki = Reinforced Kuzuki = Sion = UBW Shirou = Waver = Bazett > Avenger = Rin = Kotomine = Zouken = Luvia > Kiritsugu = Irisviel > Maiya = Leysritt = Tsukihime Satsuki = Lio = Avalon Shirou = Sakura = Ilya = Kariya = Len > Kirie = Caren = Meruka > Azaka > The Dead = Possessed Corpse = Misayo = Dragon Tooth Warrior = Fuji-nee > Gun God (unequipped) > Fake Shiki > Ryuunosuke > Tomoe > Keita San > Shinji = Hisui = Kohaku
Why kill it if you can fuck it?
Shiki can kill Anon's heterosexuality.
Wow this list truly is horrible.
Some of the worst ones:
>Gilles > Medea
>Nanaya Kiri = HF Shirou > Nanaya Shiki
>Avenger above anyone
Also, Ryuunosuke is a serial killer, why's he weaker than Fake Shiki?
Plus, making a distinction for GG with BB and without seems silly, he's not the only one who can use it (in the Nasuverse, not in Notes).
Copy paste from previous thread
TYPEs = True Demons > Bodhisattvas > Mother Goddess > Divine Spirits > Downgraded Divine Spirits (Elementals) >= Divine Beasts > Elementals (Normal, like fairies) = Phantasmal Beasts > Heroic Spirits > Servants = Dead Apostle Ancestors >= Monstrous Beasts = Void Shiki/Ciel class > Dead Apostles ?= Primordial Demons
Heroic Spirits > DAA doesn't feel right, the differences between each HA and each DAA can be vast.
For example, many HS killed Phantasmal Beasts.
Primordial Demons (whatever they are) > DA
Just to set the record straight, I'm not the guy who made that list >>118880367 but the guy who made it seemed he knew what he was talking about so I kept it.
That guy addressed it.
>True Demons are the "equal to TYPEs" monsters that get namedropped in CCC. They're compared to Lovecraftian gods. Basically they're from a higher plane of existence, casually destroy planets (which for the Nasuverse is fucking strong), and are immune to everything.
And regarding Primordial Demons. He wrote:
>We know nothing about them save for that they're shit and probably Gaia-made trash.
And he's wrong about Primordial Demons.
They definitely are weaker than most big things in the Nasuverse, but not weaker than DA.
>In Nasu's work (Kara no Kyoukai, Tsukihime, Fate, DDD) Who's the top three strongest characters?
>Arcueid, "Ryougi Shiki", and primordial demons.(Not counting Servants)
>Heroic Spirits > DAA doesn't feel right, the differences between each HA and each DAA can be vast.
You seem to be used to thinking less of Heroic Spirits at this point, but until you reach like the top five DAA, servants are said to have a slightly higher average. While DAA are more "All into one thing" types. Top fiveish are beyond normal measure though, but servants on average.
>Q: Who'd win if the Servants and the 27 Ancestors fought each other? Also, who'd win in a fight between Bazett, a renowned powerhouse of the Association, and Ciel, top class in even the Association?
>A: Depends on compatibility, but basically Servants will have the slightly higher advantage. With Saber, Lancer, and Archer classes, we ought to be able to relax and see decent fights. In particular, Saber has THAT sort of Noble Phantasms so against guys like the 27 Ancestors that overwhelm by material quantity and alienness, she'd be REALLY tough.
....Well, there are also some of those tough Ancestors that can withstand a direct hit from Excalibur-class attacks, but against those guys that just (emphasis on just; other stats don't match up) have wickedly high HP, Lancer-aniki'd be pretty tough.
>Q: Who would be stronger if Servants fought the 27 Ancestors? Servant's also have superhuman battle ability, but the 27 Ancestors are also superhuman monsters.... I got the impression that ORT, Primate Murder, Altrouge Brunestud, and so on were obviously stronger than Servants.
>A: All I can is they're both powerful.... They're both beings that live in mystery, so the only thing that can be said is that it all depends on the situation the moment it comes done to ""having the means of killing the other guy somehow". Among those, Earth rules won't even apply to ORT in the first place and Primate Murder has the super advantage against primates so they're in a league of their own, I suppose. Speaking of which, for one Primate Murder, seven Guardians would be the appropriate amount.
That's a representative from each work, and only counting officially released works, unlike NOTES. This interview is also way before shit like CCC in general.
We also know that servants would change the rankings in that power contest, or else he'd have no reason to say "Excluding servants". The most likely one to be bumped off is the last place one "Primordial Demons", but we know Ryougi is also bumped off.
As servants are now confirmed to be above demons, yet True Demons are above servants as we've seen, it created a picture.
The guy who wrote that is full of shit, you'd do well not to take at face value anything you read in the internet.
>"equal to TYPEs"
Nothing suggests this.
>They're compared to Lovecraftian gods
This is true.
>Basically they're from a higher plane of existence
Nothing saying higher, merely a different plane.
>casually destroy planets
This was never stated.
>and are immune to everything
Neither is this.
>Primordial Demons. He wrote:
>We know nothing about them save for that they're shit and probably Gaia-made trash.
Yeah, this proves he is full of shit.
But you're taking the strongest HS and the weakest DAA into account there.
Sure, Gil, Herakles, the Sabers, Medea, etc. are more powerful than most DAA (Excluding the most powerful ones).
But Assassins are weaker, and I doubt the Average HS is all that stronger than Assassin.
Andersen can't kill anything. Robin Hood, Nursery Rhyme, Frankenstein's Monster. These Servants don't come even close to Arturia level.
Can Shiki kill Uchiha Madara? And I'm not talking about Edo Tensei Uchiha Madara. I'm not talking about Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara either. Hell, I'm not even talking about Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan and Rinnegan doujutsus (with the rikodou abilities and being capable of both Amateratsu and Tsukuyomi genjutsu), equipped with his Gunbai, a perfect Susano'o, control of the juubi and Gedou Mazou, with Hashirama Senju's DNA implanted in him so he has mokuton kekkei genkai and can perform yin yang release ninjutsu while being an expert in kenjutsu and taijutsu.
I'm talking about sagemode sage of the six paths Juubi Jinchuuriki Gedou Rinne Tensei Legendary Super Saiyan 4 Uchiha Madara with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, Rinnegan, Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, and Geass doujutsus, equipped with his Shining Trapezohedron while casting Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann as his Susanoo, with Gold Experience Requiem stand, having become the original vampire after having absorbed Alucard as well as a God Hand, able to tap into the speedforce, wearing the Kamen Rider Black RX suit, with Kryptonian DNA implanted in him and having eaten Popeye's spinach while possessing quantum powers like Dr. Manhattan and having mastered Hokuto Shinken, and having graduated top of his class in the Navy Seals, has been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda with over 300 confirmed kills, is also trained in gorilla warfare and is the top sniper in the entire US armed forces.
>That's a representative from each work, and only counting officially released works
You do realize those demons haven't appeared in any Nasuverse work to date, right? So both of those assumptions are flawed.
Shiki can just cut the contract between master and servant, i mean the master provide mana to the servant but what if you cut the mana and the mana from the holy grail that gives the servants flesh
You're trying to discredit one thing in order to say that all of it is of course wrong. While overlooking how it's still not wrong that (Excluding servants) would not be there at all if the list would be unchanged if servants were included. It would be an entirely arbitrary statement if including them changed nothing if they had to say it. If something was going to be bumped off the list, it's going to be the third ranked spot, Primordial demons. Except we also know that Servants are stronger than Ryougi Shiki.
>Q. In the other Type-Moon works, who else besides Arc can fight against Servants?
>A. If we're working on the condition of one on one, with an extremely average Noble Phantasm. Generally most of the 27 Ancestors, Kishima Kouma, Aozaki Aoko.
>If it's just a defensive fight, but would still be a fight, then Ciel. Shiki (Rakkyo), Shiki (Tsukihime) are no match for Servants....but Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality) might be able to go as far as the Ciel class.
Both the number two and three spot would surely be shifted. Yet in CCC we see an incarnated True Demon, we know that it is far stronger than any servant by nature, even when logic tells us due to the previous statements that servants are above primordial demons.
Either someone says it's a representation of the three works listed, or it's a numbered list and Primordial Demons by simple logic can't be above servants because he put the fixed point of Ryougi above them on paper. Primordial demons would have had to have appeared to have been counted among his works here though. We already know that Aristotle would be beyond anything on the list here, and it makes mention of just the written works (Tsukihime, Kara no, DDD). If Primordial demons had not appeared and were still counted, then there would be nothing stopping him from counting TYPES and other Liner type characters which would break the list.
No matter how you slice it, the list cannot actually make sense with one basis or another.
True Demons are not related to Imaginary Demons at all, and nothing is known of the nature of Primordial Demons.
Demon is just a catch-all word that Magi use (the Church not so much).
Len happens to be a demon.
>True Demons are not related to Imaginary Demons at all, and nothing is known of the nature of Primordial Demons.
>Len happens to be a demon.
Saying something like that it seems you didn't read it or didn't understand any of that previously. No one said they were related to anything, or that "Well demon has to mean this".
Everything that was shown in the above paragraphs was basically solving for x in a math equation, using Ryougi and certain other known examples to point out a number of things. Nothing was stated about the nature of imaginary demons, Primordial demons, or that "They had to be like this" while nothing was said that required understanding of primordial demons. Read it again if you want, but that is a pretty arbitrary answer with what's written.
>Primordial demons would have had to have appeared to have been counted among his works here though
Except we know they haven't. And you are overlooking the fact that Ryougi is ranked as stronger than other non-Servant but Servant-level combatants (i.e Aoko, Kouma, some DAAs etc) that have appeared in works. So most likely the list is talking about overall scale of power rather than combat ability.
Cure Dream = Cure Heart > Cure Passion > Cure Rosetta > Cure White > Cure Black = Cure Muse > Cure Ace > Regina > Cure Egret = Cure Windy > Cure Beat > Dark Pretty Cure > Cure Moonlight > Cure Happy > Cure Peace > Cure Lemonade > Cure Sword > Shiny Luminous > Cure Flower > Cure Rouge = Cure Sunny > Cure Sunshine > Cure Peach > Cure Lovely > Cure Berry = Cure Beauty = Cure Aqua > Cure Marine > Cure Diamond > Cure Princess > Cure Blossom > Cure Bright > Cure Bloom > Milky Rose > Cure Fortune > Cure March = Cure Mint > Cure Melody > Cure Honey > Cure Rhythm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cure Pine
So Shiki has eyes of death which let him OHKO fucking anything. But how does a dude with a gaping chest wound being kept alive by his sisters' voodoo manage to even touch a monster like Arc or Ciel with a knife, let alone kill them?
I actually read Tsukihime a few years ago, I just don't remember what the explanation was at all. If there was an explanation.
Can he kill one who has conquered death?
Shiki is hax as fuck, he could kill or severily harm anything on the world, I get the the feeling Nasu doesn't even remember the shit he once wrote anymore.
Lancelot with F-15 isn't that strong, seriously. Arcueid at 30% already has Marble Phantasm, and Gil with anyone has Ea. F-15 wouldn't make much difference. Fate it Kariyafags, Lancelot was much weaker than Gilgamesh; so much that Saber beat him without Avalon.
DDD isn't in Nasuverse. Kanata isn't the strongest. Also, ORT isn't necessarily the strongest Aristoteles. The source material just said that there is no opponent that can defeat him while the battlefield is Earth.
Did someone say bajeena?
He's from a clan of ninjas that are literally bred for killing monsters. He lacks training but his body still knows how to kill.
The lack of training, the chest wound, and the fact that he isn't known for fighting with anything longer than a knife are the only things stopping him from being boringly overpowered.
There is no Nanaya personality. The only Nanaya Shiki is Kagetsu Tohya's incarnation of Shiki's fear.
Otherwise, Nanaya Shiki is just the impulses Shiki feels. He's the one who demonizes that part of himself as if it was another personality, but it's not true.
The Nanaya bad ends are just Shiki losing control of himself, not a second personality taking over.
>The source material just said that there is no opponent that can defeat him while the battlefield is Earth.
The source material said ORT was designed to be "Like the secret boss type at the end of the game that's a hundred times stronger than the final boss, to the point that balance is just thrown out the window" and that base concept is "Hopeless despair".
ORT isn't considered powerful just because "On Earth it cannot be killed". There's at least three or four reasons, one of which is that it's said to have the highest base stats and is designed as a hidden boss type character far stronger than than even the final boss type Aristotle in that universe/story. If Type Moon is the final boss, then ORT is the secret hidden boss you have to go through some long side-quest to pick a fight with.
Saying "I don't know why this thing is considered potentially any better than the others" might show you didn't read it enough.
>As an attack-type lifeform, boasts power on a level far beyond anything else.
>Said that as long as the battleground is earth, it has no weakness.
>In addition to the ridiculously high attack parameters of the main body, it also possesses a special ability similar to Reality Marbles - Crystal Valley.
>Base concept being "hopeless despair". If this was an RPG, ORTy would be the hidden boss that's stronger than the last boss. "WTF man, did you losers bother to think about game balance omgwtflolz?" No, no, it's your fault for messing with him (?).
That Mahoyo guy is noted to be the strongest TM protagonist so far, and considering he has no special abilities we can say that in all physical parameters he outshines Shiki since that's all he has.
People say Shiki is the apex of humanity specially designed and bred, but that's overstating it a bit.
>People say Shiki is the apex of humanity specially designed and bred, but that's overstating it a bit.
Not exactly overstating.
As others have said, Shiki's family was descended from people who stopped intermingling with humans who weakened starting from late 700s/early 800s.
That was still in the time era where humans could become Heroic Spirits through pure feats.
They were also far more connected to the planet by living secluded in the mountains for over a thousand years.
They were purebred/thoroughbred humans who kept on breeding only those who were the strongest with each generation as they were generally the only ones who could do so.
This is why brainwashed Shiki merely jogging to school nonchalantly is as fast as people who compete in the Olympics.
Shiki's family is the strongest Demon Hunter clan. This places him above Ryougi on pure physical specifications alone.
A normal human without powers from the modern day out-specs him in Mahoyo. Even with that fact alone he's not close to the apex. The world is by far much larger than people will understand, these types of rarities and monsters are all over the place when you look deeply into the strangest places. Shiki is the not the apex, he's just another rare type.
With each new TM work that comes out we're only shown more and more, there are strange types all over, people that make the freaks that you thought to be the best and brightest of humanity previously look normal by comparison.
Is he bred to be stronger than an average humans of his day and age, yes. Is he the utmost and absolute apex of humanity from a special demon clan that's far better than any human to date all around by their sheer skill, no, that's overstating it. Mahoyo protag just goes to show that Shiki isn't so apex, even among people without powers.
He's peak human, he's not "Greatest clan of demon hunters ever, as he's the accumulation of all their history, the greatest of them all, the absolute peak of human power through sheer skill and ability". His fans always have trouble overstating everything about him.
>Shiki's family is the strongest Demon Hunter clan.
In Japan, out of the two we've actually seen, while a few of the demon hunter clans weren't even battle types.
This is not an accomplishment when the only half-rival they have are the Ryougi, who don't really focus to the same medium. There are other demon hunter clans in the world, saying "They're the best ever" when we've seen maybe two is kind of bullshit.
Gram was said to be the ultimate demonic sword equal to the ultimate holy sword.
However, Gram is not Balmung. Balmung is Gram after it was shattered and reforged. By all Type-Moon logic, it's probably worse.
>A normal human without powers from the modern day out-specs him in Mahoyo.
Except no. Nasu wasn't talking about physical strength but mental strength. People without unnecessary emotions are stronger
>How did Soujuro manage not to lose his sanity under that circumstance... oh right, while on the topic, the main plot is about a doltish boy like Soujuro living in the Kuonji household with two mages, Aoko and Alice. The distances between these three characters are really something special, neither something as simple as romance, nor something that can be described by simple phrases such as "just a relationship like this." This subtle relationship became the atmosphere of the game. You mentioned juvenile fiction before, this feels just like the sparkle of youth.
>This is the deliciousness of living together. Three people who shouldn't be able to tolerate each other, without changing their own values and rules, living together. Of course, there are also things that got damaged. For example, when Soujuro first arrived from the mountains in Chapter 1, he was stronger than any other TYPE-MOON protagonist. As he got used to civilization, and settled down as an "individual," he gradually became weaker. 「Mahoyo」's topics are really things like "urban and wilderness" and "advancing civilization." People who have no knowledge of things outside of nature, fallen as a creature due to being too close to happiness. Soujuro who is always changing, Alice who has not changed all her life, and Aoko who continuously attracts new things, the three of them converge in that mansion. When someone looks back at this story much later thinking "we lived through that miraculous time," isn't that what youth is all about?
They were absolute war power for Demon Hunters
Well we know for sure that Cu's Gay Bulge is superior to Gil's, since he himself created the Heart-stab technique.
Gate of Babylon makes no sense at all when you try to think about it