Is Kirei the most deadly non servant in the series? Could he possibly beat a servant?
http://youtu.be/QkvauvbFYj8 - http://youtu.be/NSgXOZKSt20
HF Shirou could probably take him. I dont think he could, he couldnt even beat (true)assassin even though he was immune to his NP. He is probably weaker than Shikis "assassin" personality too.
Still seems weird to me. Was this in the original game or just some Fate/Zero original shit? F/Z added some other strange stuff I don't entirely approve of like letting people transfer command spells.
>Q: Between Kotomine, Bazett, Kuzuki, Melty Blood’s Miyako, and Kishima Kouma, who’d be the top 3 in a purely hand to hand fight with no weapons or magecraft?
>A: I’m excluding Kouma since his existence itself has become a mystery.
>And even if he didn’t have that nature, he’s like an athlete caught by drug testing.
>Out of the four left, the winner in pure strength is Bazett.
>If it’s limited to one match and a surprise attack, then it’s Kuzuki.
>And if it’s the Kotomine from ten years ago, he’s stronger than Bazett overall.
Shirou's plot armor isn't actually that strong. Pic related shows all the endings in the game. The cards on top are the good endings where you win, the tiger stickers on the bottom are bad endings. One of those endings technically implies he won too, so let's call it 6/45 possible outcomes where Shirou wins the war. That's only a 13.3% chance of victory for him. Considering there were 8 different groups in the running for that war (I think...) the average probability of any given group winning would be 12.5%, all things being equal.
So Shirou's odds are just BARELY above the average expected probability if the whole war was just pure random chance. If you don't count Zouken who usually doesn't do jack shit most of the time he's actually about 1% lower than the expected average success rate.
Well that's what makes Kiritsugu the most "deadly". The man found a way to kill his opponent no matter what it cost him or anyone else. There was no lengths he wasn't willing to go to, no means he wasn't willing to use.
Could he kill a Servant? He did. He killed Lancer by using Kayneth to force him to commit suicide. He also technically would have killed Gil by proxy if Gil hadn't been able to survive the black mud like everything else.
Kirei's good in 1v1, but that's all he's good for.
Shirou is also really susceptible to all kinds of sudden horrible death or worse if he fucks up (or just gets unlucky somehow) so I don't think plot armor really applies here.
>Kirei's good in 1v1, but that's all he's good for.
And actually surviving.
And accomplishing his goals.
Did you miss how Zero was basically just Kirei and Kiritsugu playing shadow chess against each other?
>most deadly non servant in the series
Normal Kirei is below Ciel level, which is defensive battle level. Prime Kirei with his Command Spells and the same tenacity used against Kiritsugu can beat her and some Servants, only the weakest Servants at their weakest, close-range Caster and out in the open Assassin, or one with a great compatibility disadvantage.
Type Mercury (ORT) = Ado Edem > Type Jupiter ≥ Type Saturn > The Six Sisters ≥ Type Pluto > Type Moon (Crimson Moon) = ArcheType Earth (Arcueid) ≥ Type Venus > Balor of the Evil Eye ≥ Arcueid (50% (post Roa's death)) > Primordial Demons > Primate Murder > Angra Mainyu > Zelretch (young) > Counter Guardian Archer > Gilgamesh > Arcueid (30%) > Lancelot (F-15) > Dark Sakura > Dark Saber > Saber > Zero Caster's Sea Demon > Lancelot > 5th Berserker > Dark Berserker ≥ Original Roa > 17th Roa (Elesia) > 4th Rider > Merem Solomon > 5th Lancer ≥ 4th Lancer = Archer ≥ 5th Rider > 4th Caster > 5th Caster = Nrvnqsr > Clairvoyant Fujino = Kurogiri > Kouma > 4th Assassin > 5th Assassin > Aoko > Barthomeloi ≥ Arcueid (6%) > Kojirou = Ciel ≥ Kotomine (young) = "Ryougi Shiki" = Soren Araya (within the Ogawa Building) > Gun God (Black Barrel) > Night of Wallachia ≥ Touko = Kayneth El-Melloi > Leysritt > Sion Tatari = Melty Blood Satsuki = R. Shiki ≥ Akiha = Asagami Fujino = 18th Roa > Tohno SHIKI = Alba = Heaven's Feel Shirou = Kiri > Nanaya Shiki = Reinforced Kuzuki > Sion = UBW Shirou = Waver = Bazett > Avenger = Rin = Luvia = Kotomine > Zouken > Kiritsugu > Irisviel > Maiya = Tsukihime Satsuki = Lio = Avalon Shirou = Ilya = Kariya > Sakura > Len > Kirie = Caren = Meruka > Azaka > The Dead = Possessed Corpse = Misayo = Dragon Tooth Warrior = Fuji-nee > Gun God (unequipped) > Fake Shiki = Ryuunosuke ≥ Tomoe > Keita San ≥ Shinji > Hisui = Kohaku
>Maids at the bottom
Someone didn't play MB
>Did you miss how Zero was basically just Kirei and Kiritsugu playing shadow chess against each other?
Yes I did, considering Kirei didn't even get involved until the final act and by then, there wasn't much 'chess' to be played.
Yeah, but Lancer's death had very little to do with Saber is my point. He probably wouldn't have died if Kiritsugu hadn't been there. Having a Servant kill another Servant with raw power is only good at judging the Servant's power. Kiritsugu gave no fucks about how powerful any of the Servants were and took matters into his own hands despite his own limited abilities, which he was able to work around in a way no other master was in order to come out on top.
I was only speaking in terms of how good one character was at killing others. Ultimately Kirei was more successful, I'd agree.
Hero Kotomine can beat an Assassin or a Caster, if it's a close-quarters fight without Presence Concealment or magecraft. Same for Kerry at the time of that fight.
Lorelei, Aoko, Kouma, the DAAs, and so on can all fight Servants though. Kouma's able to match a Servant plus their NP just with sheer power, and on average the DAAs are Servant-tier (though you have monsters like ORT that no Servant has a chance in hell of ever beating). Lorelei's the best magus of the modern say and can solo most DAAs, so she can also fight Servants, and Miss Blue's not at Lorelei's level but she's pretty stronk.
Alice Kuonji from Mahoyo can't fight Servants herself, but her Ploys can, especially the Four Wonders. It helps that 99% of Servants won't have the methods to destroy her Ploys, cause of how their conceptual universe works.
So on and so forth, the Nasuverse is big.
This seems like a decent TM thread so I'll ask: why does Roa look different in Far Side routes? It's been a long time since I read Tsukihime and I only just remembered how much it bothered me because of >>118525364
Actually I haven't even watched the adaption.
And it was a recurring plotline that Kirei and Kiritsugu were aware of each other and considered the other to be the biggest threat.
And Kirei's betrayal and switching to Gil didn't just happen out of the blue. He was during plenty of shit the entire time.
That chart is dumb, linear power levels in Nasuverse usually are, but credit where credit's due CM is stronker than Young Zel. CM just lost because he had no idea what True Magic was and expected that, as a TYPE, he'd be invincible. If he knew his opponent had a way of hurting him through manipulation of [ ], it probably would have been different.
Kerry explained this to you in detail.
Kirei is a strong all-arounder with zoning capabilities but few finishers. By most metrics he'd be considered a top tier fighter.
By contrast, Bazette would be more of a glass canon heavy hitter with a truly ridiculous OHKO counter move.
And Kuzuki would be that one weird character nobody played as because his controls are so fucked up, but then you play one guy who mastered it and he beats you without taking damage.
Kirei can beat
_______mewith his sacred penis
>If he knew his opponent had a way of hurting him
That's like saying people can beat Batman if they somehow were aware of what he's planning.
Knowledge is also a factor in powerlevels.
Nah, it's Bazette. She actually killed servants on screen.
After going through infinite time-loops and setting up the absolute optimal scenario.
Shirou killed Servants before it was cool.
Kirei steals command seals in F/SN so does Caster and so does Rin. They're always transferable if you're willing to risk the person you're taking them from and they were always described as "huge mana source" so using them to fuel other magic is fine.
>DO YOU REMEMBER KIRITSUGU
>THE CLASHING OF BONE AND SINEW
>Could he possibly beat a servant?
It's not the question of "could he". He already did. Ask lancer and assassin.
Threadly reminder that he'd lose to Aoko, Ciel, Shiki, Kouma, Vermillion Akiha and many more.
>Kirei had to rely on command seals to match the guy he killed in one blow that had a magical artifact inside of his body that reconstructed his exploded organs and allowed him to use his magic incredibly recklessly to fight on par with him
>He doesn't worship SUGOI, SUGOI
You're one of them homosexuals, right?
He didn't have infinite mana.
Rin wielding Gem Sword Zeltrech would be a mage with infinite mana. Black Shadow Sakura would be a mage with a MASSIVE, MASSIVE supply of prana that boarders on infinite, but isn't exactly inexhaustible.
All Kiere had in comparison was a few leftover command seals that are consumed on useage. It's not even remotely comparable to having an infinite supply of mana. It's an absurdly powerful tool, yes, but not nearly as amazing as you think it is.
>Don't forget that even in his prime, he had to rely on command seals to match Kiritsugu
Kiri could slow time and had guns, whats your point?
Kirei's high point was the jogging. As for beating servants he was pretty shit in UBW and HF fighting them, but he did give archer armed shirou trouble and a weaker shirou from UBW did fight evenly with girugamesh.
So I think the main point is autism.
>what is hyperbole
Thanks for the lecture Captain Obvious.
No, he can't. Without Command Spells, he's not as strong as a Servant, not as fast as a Servant, nor as skilled as a Servant.
The only Servant he could probably beat is Avenger. Even Bazett can beat Avenger, and she's weaker than he was in his prime.
Why didn't Shirou re-project the gem sword in HF so Rin doesn't have to spend such a long time saving up to craft it?
Because there's no point if he makes it for her. She needs to reach it on her own.
I mean, sure, you could write someone's college thesis for them and let them piggy-back on you to graduation, but they wouldn't have earned that. And Rin does not piggy-back. Unless she's feeling kinky.
Maybe, with a stockpile of Command Spells.
Problem is he doesn't have a Noble Phantasm. All he has are shitty Black Keys. You can't beat a Servant with just your fists alone, no matter how strong you are, and I'm pretty sure Kotomine doesn't know Strengthening thaumaturgy.
Kirei in his prime gets wrecked by Delusional Heartbeat.
That's just dumb, man. That makes magic of any level an asspull. Shirou having something that protects him was already a plot point then.
Not without Ilya's help, I think. He has to "understand" the sword to project it.
>With command spells nasu says he can match a servant temporarily.
No. Nasu says that with command seals, Kirei can possibly defeat Ciel. Possibly.
And Ciel is not a match for Servants until she gets all her gear from the Church.
That said, my vote goes to Satsujinki. He's Tohno Shiki with his Nanaya potential realized. Far more powerful than his overpowered daddy.
Unless a projection is perfect it will break down at some point.
Shirou was barely able to replicate the thing even with access to its actual blueprint and firsthand memories from someone who came into contact with it.
You do the math.
HF Shirou is able to beat Saber Alter solo
True, he dies afterwards, but is still far more that what Kirei can do
I think she attacked gil with something in Fate, I'm not sure
That's not "just some magic," it's a mythological one of a kind item that saber should have taken back in the last war after kiritsugu used it to summon her. It's compete asspull that Shirou had it inside him.
Kiritsugu never gave it back to her, and it's a relic that exists in the modern age. As long as Saber's not in possession of it, there's no reason it should disappear along with her.
The downrank only applies to NPs, everything else is just slightly imperfect. Nowhere does it say a normal item is given a rank down, because they don't have ranks.
>Fate/complete material III: World Material -The Servants of the Fifth Holy Grail War: Archer, p.026-027
>Also, the ability of the replicated Noble Phantasm suffers one rank down compared to the original.
The point I'm making is the minute he uses Archer's arm, he's dead.
The guy could utterly pound whoever he's fighting into the pavement, but if he has to take the cloth off to do it, it still basically amounts to a draw, even if it's a slightly belated one.
>The downrank only applies to NPs, everything else is just slightly imperfect
The "slightly imperfect" is adapted as downrank in the system.
It's the same thing.
Projecting NPs isn't different from projecting mundane objects except for the difficulty.
I am going with what I saw in the VN which is what Shirou saw. The Caliburn dreams were Saber's direct memories and you could see the sword clearly but Illya's ancestral memories were blurry and shitty.
What if my fetishes are for well-built, muscular men that are good looking, handsome and has the specific talent of being able to be very good at whatever they do?
>You can't beat a Servant with just your fists alone, no matter how strong you are.
Caster's magic was in play.
>You can't beat a Servant with just your fists alone,
Look nigga, just look are you going to tell me this is not blurry in comparison?
>You can't beat a Servant with just your fists alone
Maybe you can't
He's the epitome of a human/demon hybrid.
His abilities are not normal and might very well be able to affect a Servant where a normal human's wouldn't.
Li is a Servant, so he's not really relevant to the point the anon was trying to make.
Reading that scene again, I think that's just Shirou's inability to totally comprehend the thing or his arm fucking him up. Then again, he was able to tell the size of a big rock and what was carved on it, so who knows.
And she's died countless times too, 1 kill out of hundreds isn't much, especially when that one kill was only possible because she had help from avenger.
Saber vs Avenger/Bazett was as perfect of a setup for her as Shirou vs Gilgamesh
>Now with Archer's arm interference
And by 'beat him', we mean 'survived in combat against him until he achieved his true objective, at which point TA stopped bothering to try and kill him, partially because he found him so interesting'. TA could've gone ahead and killed Kirei, pretty easily, given how badly injured he was. He deliberately made the choice not to.