Is Kirei the most deadly non servant in the series? Could he

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http://youtu.be/QkvauvbFYj8 - http://youtu.be/NSgXOZKSt20

With command spells nasu says he can match a servant temporarily.

HF Shirou could probably take him. I dont think he could, he couldnt even beat (true)assassin even though he was immune to his NP. He is probably weaker than Shikis "assassin" personality too.

>>118524132
How would command spells help him? I thought their buffs only affect the servant you're commanding.

If he's so strong how come he always lost to Shirou, the shittiest mage on Earth?

>>118524197
He reinforced his swords during the fight against kerrytugu.

>possibly
He killed True Assassin in HF.

>>118524249
How does that work?

>>118524132
No shit. Anyone with command seals could match a servant because they create god damn miracles.

>>118524283
magic

>>118524055
Still love this fight. It was totally different from the F/SN finales.

Both Kerry and Kirei were based.

I'd take Ilya (if we're counting her as human) or Bazett before Kotomine.

>>118524242
Shirou won against fucking Gil AND Papa Smurf.

>>118524369
Still seems weird to me. Was this in the original game or just some Fate/Zero original shit? F/Z added some other strange stuff I don't entirely approve of like letting people transfer command spells.

>>118523968
Kiritsugu is the best.

Shirou is the best due to plot.

>>118524609
Kiritsugu had some strong gimmicks going for him, and was good for plannign ambushes and such things, but he I think Kirei was better all around.

>>118524252
No, Sakura did. Kirei only beat him in combat.

>>118524540
It was introduced as an element in fate/zero, I think.
Anyways it doesn't rise any inconsistencies with the novel.

>>118524693
Yeah but it cheapens them when some fat priest has more command seals than all the other dudes combined

>>118524242
Because Shirou has infinite plot armor

This guy beat three servants on different occasions. Three.

According to Nasu, Bazett is the strongest non-servant, except Kirei in his prime is actually stronger, except Soichiro would actually beat both of them.

>Nasu

>Q: Between Kotomine, Bazett, Kuzuki, Melty Blood’s Miyako, and Kishima Kouma, who’d be the top 3 in a purely hand to hand fight with no weapons or magecraft?

>A: I’m excluding Kouma since his existence itself has become a mystery.
>And even if he didn’t have that nature, he’s like an athlete caught by drug testing.
>Out of the four left, the winner in pure strength is Bazett.
>If it’s limited to one match and a surprise attack, then it’s Kuzuki.
>And if it’s the Kotomine from ten years ago, he’s stronger than Bazett overall.

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>>118524780
Shirou's plot armor isn't actually that strong. Pic related shows all the endings in the game. The cards on top are the good endings where you win, the tiger stickers on the bottom are bad endings. One of those endings technically implies he won too, so let's call it 6/45 possible outcomes where Shirou wins the war. That's only a 13.3% chance of victory for him. Considering there were 8 different groups in the running for that war (I think...) the average probability of any given group winning would be 12.5%, all things being equal.

So Shirou's odds are just BARELY above the average expected probability if the whole war was just pure random chance. If you don't count Zouken who usually doesn't do jack shit most of the time he's actually about 1% lower than the expected average success rate.

>>118524780
>Shirou has infinite plot armor
When did the term plot armor lose its intended meaning?

>>118524682
Well that's what makes Kiritsugu the most "deadly". The man found a way to kill his opponent no matter what it cost him or anyone else. There was no lengths he wasn't willing to go to, no means he wasn't willing to use.

Could he kill a Servant? He did. He killed Lancer by using Kayneth to force him to commit suicide. He also technically would have killed Gil by proxy if Gil hadn't been able to survive the black mud like everything else.

Kirei's good in 1v1, but that's all he's good for.

>>118524841
Shirou is also really susceptible to all kinds of sudden horrible death or worse if he fucks up (or just gets unlucky somehow) so I don't think plot armor really applies here.

>>118525050
>Could he kill a Servant? He did. He killed Lancer by using Kayneth to force him to commit suicide.

Tons of people killed servants by using their own servant to do so.

>>118524839
Isn't it sad, Miyako?

>>118525050
>Kirei's good in 1v1, but that's all he's good for.
And actually surviving.
And accomplishing his goals.

Did you miss how Zero was basically just Kirei and Kiritsugu playing shadow chess against each other?

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>>118523968
>most deadly non servant in the series
no

Dark Sakura was deadlier imo

>>118525237
But Kerei wasn't even playing until the last few episodes.

>>118525275
>pic not related

>>118524055
Still don't get why they never used any of the songs included with the LN like Time Alter.

>>118523968
Normal Kirei is below Ciel level, which is defensive battle level. Prime Kirei with his Command Spells and the same tenacity used against Kiritsugu can beat her and some Servants, only the weakest Servants at their weakest, close-range Caster and out in the open Assassin, or one with a great compatibility disadvantage.

>>118525275
He's only half-deadly.

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Type Mercury (ORT) = Ado Edem > Type Jupiter ≥ Type Saturn > The Six Sisters ≥ Type Pluto > Type Moon (Crimson Moon) = ArcheType Earth (Arcueid) ≥ Type Venus > Balor of the Evil Eye ≥ Arcueid (50% (post Roa's death)) > Primordial Demons > Primate Murder > Angra Mainyu > Zelretch (young) > Counter Guardian Archer > Gilgamesh > Arcueid (30%) > Lancelot (F-15) > Dark Sakura > Dark Saber > Saber > Zero Caster's Sea Demon > Lancelot > 5th Berserker > Dark Berserker ≥ Original Roa > 17th Roa (Elesia) > 4th Rider > Merem Solomon > 5th Lancer ≥ 4th Lancer = Archer ≥ 5th Rider > 4th Caster > 5th Caster = Nrvnqsr > Clairvoyant Fujino = Kurogiri > Kouma > 4th Assassin > 5th Assassin > Aoko > Barthomeloi ≥ Arcueid (6%) > Kojirou = Ciel ≥ Kotomine (young) = "Ryougi Shiki" = Soren Araya (within the Ogawa Building) > Gun God (Black Barrel) > Night of Wallachia ≥ Touko = Kayneth El-Melloi > Leysritt > Sion Tatari = Melty Blood Satsuki = R. Shiki ≥ Akiha = Asagami Fujino = 18th Roa > Tohno SHIKI = Alba = Heaven's Feel Shirou = Kiri > Nanaya Shiki = Reinforced Kuzuki > Sion = UBW Shirou = Waver = Bazett > Avenger = Rin = Luvia = Kotomine > Zouken > Kiritsugu > Irisviel > Maiya = Tsukihime Satsuki = Lio = Avalon Shirou = Ilya = Kariya > Sakura > Len > Kirie = Caren = Meruka > Azaka > The Dead = Possessed Corpse = Misayo = Dragon Tooth Warrior = Fuji-nee > Gun God (unequipped) > Fake Shiki = Ryuunosuke ≥ Tomoe > Keita San ≥ Shinji > Hisui = Kohaku

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>>118525314
>episodes.

>>118523968
No, that would be Ciel most likely.
Don't forget that even in his prime, he had to rely on command seals to match Kiritsugu - otherwise he's quite weak.

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>>118525405
>Maids at the bottom
Someone didn't play MB

>>118525405
Ado Edem is pretty shit overall. He just has a major compatibility against giant things. He's still above Servant level though.

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>>118525378 >>118524055
http://youtu.be/Q_kWg87HAxQ
Thanks Ufotable.

>>118525237
>Did you miss how Zero was basically just Kirei and Kiritsugu playing shadow chess against each other?
Yes I did, considering Kirei didn't even get involved until the final act and by then, there wasn't much 'chess' to be played.

Fucking secondaries.

>>118525437
I think by "in the series" he mean Fate only

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>>118525405

>>118525196
Yeah, but Lancer's death had very little to do with Saber is my point. He probably wouldn't have died if Kiritsugu hadn't been there. Having a Servant kill another Servant with raw power is only good at judging the Servant's power. Kiritsugu gave no fucks about how powerful any of the Servants were and took matters into his own hands despite his own limited abilities, which he was able to work around in a way no other master was in order to come out on top.

>>118525237
I was only speaking in terms of how good one character was at killing others. Ultimately Kirei was more successful, I'd agree.

>>118525405
>Type Moon (Crimson Moon) >>> Zelretch (young)
Is Zelretch gonna have to choke a bitch again?

>>118525491
I think by "faggot", I mean you

>>118525484
You can't even blame that on secondaries, it's clear in the anime as well. It's just a clear sign of non-comprehension of what the story straight out tells you.

>>118523968
Hero Kotomine can beat an Assassin or a Caster, if it's a close-quarters fight without Presence Concealment or magecraft. Same for Kerry at the time of that fight.

Lorelei, Aoko, Kouma, the DAAs, and so on can all fight Servants though. Kouma's able to match a Servant plus their NP just with sheer power, and on average the DAAs are Servant-tier (though you have monsters like ORT that no Servant has a chance in hell of ever beating). Lorelei's the best magus of the modern say and can solo most DAAs, so she can also fight Servants, and Miss Blue's not at Lorelei's level but she's pretty stronk.

Alice Kuonji from Mahoyo can't fight Servants herself, but her Ploys can, especially the Four Wonders. It helps that 99% of Servants won't have the methods to destroy her Ploys, cause of how their conceptual universe works.

So on and so forth, the Nasuverse is big.

This seems like a decent TM thread so I'll ask: why does Roa look different in Far Side routes? It's been a long time since I read Tsukihime and I only just remembered how much it bothered me because of >>118525364

>>118525484
>Fucking secondaries.
Actually I haven't even watched the adaption.

And it was a recurring plotline that Kirei and Kiritsugu were aware of each other and considered the other to be the biggest threat.

And Kirei's betrayal and switching to Gil didn't just happen out of the blue. He was during plenty of shit the entire time.

>>118525526
That chart is dumb, linear power levels in Nasuverse usually are, but credit where credit's due CM is stronker than Young Zel. CM just lost because he had no idea what True Magic was and expected that, as a TYPE, he'd be invincible. If he knew his opponent had a way of hurting him through manipulation of [ ], it probably would have been different.

>>118525643
One of the Ms. Ciel segments has him say he changed himself to suit his preferences.

>>118525643
Because Roa never takes over SHIKI in Far Side routes.

>>118523968
No, that's Sakura

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>>118525643

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>>118524197
Kerry explained this to you in detail.

Jesus christ.

>>118525680
You might manipulate Zelretech... Maybe... Maybe. He's still yet to meet someone who can manipulate second magic blasts.

>>118525611

More like, the Nasuverse is retarded

Kirei is a strong all-arounder with zoning capabilities but few finishers. By most metrics he'd be considered a top tier fighter.

By contrast, Bazette would be more of a glass canon heavy hitter with a truly ridiculous OHKO counter move.

And Kuzuki would be that one weird character nobody played as because his controls are so fucked up, but then you play one guy who mastered it and he beats you without taking damage.

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Kirei can beat _______me with his sacred penis

>>118525504
Why's Beowulf higher then Soujuuro?

>>118525504
The servant placement is so wrong on so many levels.

>>118525680
>If he knew his opponent had a way of hurting him
That's like saying people can beat Batman if they somehow were aware of what he's planning.

Knowledge is also a factor in powerlevels.

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>>118525771

>>118525926
But CM knows about True Magic now. That knowledge has changed.

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>>118523968
Nah, it's Bazette. She actually killed servants on screen.

>>118525774
It's been like six years since I watched it cut me a break.

>>118525940

>>118525985
He's also dead.

>>118526004
And Kirei killed her.

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>>118526004
After going through infinite time-loops and setting up the absolute optimal scenario.

Shirou killed Servants before it was cool.

>>118526098
Nah, he's alive, he's just sleeping. He's supposed to wake up in Notes.

>>118526139
Getting backstabbed is not the same thing as being defeated in a fight. In a direct fight Bazette would probably have won.

>>118524736
Kirei steals command seals in F/SN so does Caster and so does Rin. They're always transferable if you're willing to risk the person you're taking them from and they were always described as "huge mana source" so using them to fuel other magic is fine.

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>>118523968
Holy shit Kirei!

>>118526254
Noice.

>>118526254
SNAAAAAKE?!

>>118526254
HURT ME MORE

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>>118526004

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>>118526254
>DO YOU REMEMBER KIRITSUGU
>THE CLASHING OF BONE AND SINEW

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>>118526294
hm?

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>>118523968
>Could he possibly beat a servant?

It's not the question of "could he". He already did. Ask lancer and assassin.

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>>118523968
Threadly reminder that he'd lose to Aoko, Ciel, Shiki, Kouma, Vermillion Akiha and many more.

>>118525437
Kerry had Avalon though.

>>118526575
And Kirei had infinite prana, what's your point?

>>118525437
>Kirei had to rely on command seals to match the guy he killed in one blow that had a magical artifact inside of his body that reconstructed his exploded organs and allowed him to use his magic incredibly recklessly to fight on par with him

>>118526436

Too bad all of those are shit characters

>>118526703
That we don't know how things would have been if neither had ridiculous tools at their disposal.

>>118525504
>Nrvnqsr above Tohno
>Nrvnqsr is canonically defeated by Tohno on all the near side routes

Gr8 b8

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>>118526779
>shit characters
I'll fight you.

>>118525504
>Medusa above Alex.
Disgusting.

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>>118526779
>He doesn't worship SUGOI, SUGOI
You're one of them homosexuals, right?

>>118526703
He didn't have infinite mana.

Rin wielding Gem Sword Zeltrech would be a mage with infinite mana. Black Shadow Sakura would be a mage with a MASSIVE, MASSIVE supply of prana that boarders on infinite, but isn't exactly inexhaustible.

All Kiere had in comparison was a few leftover command seals that are consumed on useage. It's not even remotely comparable to having an infinite supply of mana. It's an absurdly powerful tool, yes, but not nearly as amazing as you think it is.

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>>118526909

>>118526909
I was going to post the same thing.

>tfw Kotomine won't harass you like one of your japanese anime

>Don't forget that even in his prime, he had to rely on command seals to match Kiritsugu

Kiri could slow time and had guns, whats your point?
Kirei's high point was the jogging. As for beating servants he was pretty shit in UBW and HF fighting them, but he did give archer armed shirou trouble and a weaker shirou from UBW did fight evenly with girugamesh.

So I think the main point is autism.

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>>118526909
>>118526909
Nice sword.

>>118526936
Rin's dagger was sorcery bullshit, Sakura and the Servants powers come from the holy grail so naturally a command seal is pretty low tier compared to those.

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>>118526936
>what is hyperbole
Thanks for the lecture Captain Obvious.

>>118527006
>archer armed shirou trouble
He was on his last breaths same with Kirei. But then we have Fate were Shirou beat Kirei too.

>>118523968
No, he can't. Without Command Spells, he's not as strong as a Servant, not as fast as a Servant, nor as skilled as a Servant.

The only Servant he could probably beat is Avenger. Even Bazett can beat Avenger, and she's weaker than he was in his prime.

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Why didn't Shirou re-project the gem sword in HF so Rin doesn't have to spend such a long time saving up to craft it?

>>118527506
Because there's no point if he makes it for her. She needs to reach it on her own.

I mean, sure, you could write someone's college thesis for them and let them piggy-back on you to graduation, but they wouldn't have earned that. And Rin does not piggy-back. Unless she's feeling kinky.

>>118527506
At which point? After he has a new body?

>>118527506
Because projections suck compared to the real thing anon.

>>118525083
>Gil kills him
>"oh wow look at that, you just happen to have Avalon in you!"
>not plot armor

>>118527629
Yes.
>>118527644
Really, how does it degrade it?
>>118527605
What if she gets into trouble?

>>118526863
ciel scares the shit out of me, it's hot

>>118527764
All of Shirou (or Archer's) projections are one rank below the original weapon.

In Archer's case, it doesn't mean shit though, since he just uses Broken Phantasms.

>>118527751
I don't think you know what plot armor really means.

Would UBW Shirou be able to help Rin create the gem sword?

>>118527849
>All of Shirou (or Archer's) projections are one rank below the original weapon.
Yeah but how does it rank down a weapon or tool that provides infinite mana?

>>118527849
>since he just uses Broken Phantasms.
He doesn't do that very often though.
The only example from fsn that I can remember is Caladbolg.

>>118525405
Where the fuck are half of these characters even from? I don't remember them in tsukihime or fate

>>118524160
Kotomine on his prime as of F/Z could beat True Assassin.

>>118527898
It was only made to work for a single battle.
Shirou straight out told Rin that he didn't think he would be able to project it properly.

>>118527917
Type-Moon has made more than Fate and Tuskihime you know.

>>118527953
Maybe, with a stockpile of Command Spells.

Problem is he doesn't have a Noble Phantasm. All he has are shitty Black Keys. You can't beat a Servant with just your fists alone, no matter how strong you are, and I'm pretty sure Kotomine doesn't know Strengthening thaumaturgy.

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>>118527953
Kirei in his prime gets wrecked by Delusional Heartbeat.

>>118527751
That's just dumb, man. That makes magic of any level an asspull. Shirou having something that protects him was already a plot point then.
>>118527863
Not without Ilya's help, I think. He has to "understand" the sword to project it.

>>118525504
Why is Fujino way above Ryougi when she got her ass handed to her?

>>118527967
My memory is fuzzy about that, so a real gem sword would be able to withstand a higher number of battles?

>>118528052
Because that chart is utter shit.

>>118527849
>All of Shirou (or Archer's) projections are one rank below the original weapon.
And the Jewel sword doesn't have a rank since it's not an NP dingus.

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>>118524132
>With command spells nasu says he can match a servant temporarily.
No. Nasu says that with command seals, Kirei can possibly defeat Ciel. Possibly.

And Ciel is not a match for Servants until she gets all her gear from the Church.

That said, my vote goes to Satsujinki. He's Tohno Shiki with his Nanaya potential realized. Far more powerful than his overpowered daddy.

>>118528056
Unless a projection is perfect it will break down at some point.
Shirou was barely able to replicate the thing even with access to its actual blueprint and firsthand memories from someone who came into contact with it.

You do the math.

>>118524495
Ilya is useless in combat though.
>but muh adaption

>>118528162
The ranking doesn't have anything to do NPs or even Servants.
It's just a simple system for classifying abilities in Shirou's head. You could apply it to anything

>>118528233
I think the VN has some off-hand reference to her using some basic combat spells at least.

>>118528202
Being able to match something temporarily is not even close to possibly being able to defeat someone.

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HF Shirou is able to beat Saber Alter solo
True, he dies afterwards, but is still far more that what Kirei can do
>>118528275
I think she attacked gil with something in Fate, I'm not sure

>>118528048
That's not "just some magic," it's a mythological one of a kind item that saber should have taken back in the last war after kiritsugu used it to summon her. It's compete asspull that Shirou had it inside him.

>>118528275
She's a one-trick pony when it comes to combat.
She uses some basic attack in Fate, but it's even weaker than a Gandr shot.

>>118528339
>It's compete asspull that Shirou had it inside him

Did you miss the part where Kerry put it inside him specifically to save him?

>>118528339
Kiritsugu never gave it back to her, and it's a relic that exists in the modern age. As long as Saber's not in possession of it, there's no reason it should disappear along with her.

>>118528339
How the fuck is that an asspull

>>118528329
HF Shirou basically can't win any fights. The minute he uses his powers he's a dead man walking.

>>118528339
It was foreshadowed on multiple occasion.
That's not an asspull you idiot.

With that sort of justification any unexpected development is an asspull.

>>118528339
It's a plot point that the entire VN was written around that is the exact opposite of an asspull.

>>118528203
>firsthand memories from someone who came into contact with it.
On Shirou's defense those memories were blurry and shitty.

>>118528268


The downrank only applies to NPs, everything else is just slightly imperfect. Nowhere does it say a normal item is given a rank down, because they don't have ranks.

>Fate/complete material III: World Material -The Servants of the Fifth Holy Grail War: Archer, p.026-027
>Also, the ability of the replicated Noble Phantasm suffers one rank down compared to the original.

>>118528439
If we are talking about pure display of power, victory doesn´t matter
also, he won to dark berserker, even if it was in part thanks to Ilya

>>118528545
He's able to analyse Caliburn through vague dreams.
Ilya's ancestral memories is a clear improvement.

>>118528610
The point I'm making is the minute he uses Archer's arm, he's dead.

The guy could utterly pound whoever he's fighting into the pavement, but if he has to take the cloth off to do it, it still basically amounts to a draw, even if it's a slightly belated one.

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is kirei a good lover /a/?

>>118528581
>The downrank only applies to NPs, everything else is just slightly imperfect
The "slightly imperfect" is adapted as downrank in the system.
It's the same thing.

Projecting NPs isn't different from projecting mundane objects except for the difficulty.

>>118528618
I am going with what I saw in the VN which is what Shirou saw. The Caliburn dreams were Saber's direct memories and you could see the sword clearly but Illya's ancestral memories were blurry and shitty.

>>118528709
I don't know, ask Caren's mom.

>>118528771
Ilya's memories are clear enough to manifest an actual second personality.
That doesn't sound very blurry.

>>118528709
I kinda doubt it, unless you have very specific fetishes

>>118528819
Well nigga those memories looked blurry.

>>118529110
Maybe you should buy some glasses anon.

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>>118528885
What if my fetishes are for well-built, muscular men that are good looking, handsome and has the specific talent of being able to be very good at whatever they do?

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>>118528039
>You can't beat a Servant with just your fists alone, no matter how strong you are.

>>118529282
He wasn't using just his fists. He had Caster backing him up.

>>118529282
Yeah and then he had to run the fuck away a minute later

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>>118529282
Pic related.
Caster's magic was in play.

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>>118528039
>You can't beat a Servant with just your fists alone,
Wanna bet?

>>118529374
Kouma doesn't "just use his fist alone".

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>>118529141
Look nigga, just look are you going to tell me this is not blurry in comparison?

>>118529615
He also use kicks. Your point?

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>>118528039
>You can't beat a Servant with just your fists alone
Maybe you can't

>>118523968
>Could he beat a servant ?

Your secondary is showing m8

>>118530260
He's the epitome of a human/demon hybrid.

His abilities are not normal and might very well be able to affect a Servant where a normal human's wouldn't.

>>118530336
Li is a Servant, so he's not really relevant to the point the anon was trying to make.

>>118530177
Reading that scene again, I think that's just Shirou's inability to totally comprehend the thing or his arm fucking him up. Then again, he was able to tell the size of a big rock and what was carved on it, so who knows.

>>118526004
And she's died countless times too, 1 kill out of hundreds isn't much, especially when that one kill was only possible because she had help from avenger.

Saber vs Avenger/Bazett was as perfect of a setup for her as Shirou vs Gilgamesh

>>118525437
Kerry only lasted that long because he had avalon in him, he was dead from the first punch.

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>>118530595
>Now with Archer's arm interference

>>118531070
And Kirei would be fucked by the Origin bullets if he didn't have the seals.

As demonstrated in UBW, if you can negate Caster's magic for a few seconds than even someone like Rin or Shirou could beat her to a pulp. Kirei could easily kill her in a few blows.

>>118531854
That's a pretty big if.

>>118531854
And Tohsaka was using reinforcement magic, which Kirei doesn't have.

>>118531854
That only really worked because Rin caught her by surprise by pretending to do a normal magic duel. Caster could just blow her up. It's classic Gilgamesh Syndrome.

>>118531956
Wasn't kirei's priest outfit reinforced?

>>118528305
Do you even Saint Seiya?

But yeah, I see what you mean.

>>118531997
I those are different things though.
I don't think you can affect Servants with clothes.

>>118523968
No, he would have died from True Assassin if he had a normal, regular heart with True Assassin not even breaking a sweat.

>>118532054
But he can still use reinforcement.

>>118532118
No he can't.
His clothes are standard issue Church shit.

Can Kuzuki kill Kirei?

They are both autismal as fuck.

>>118523968
Stop talking about this show please

>>118532154

>>118524839

>>118527953
>>118528039
No, because Kotomine has a real heart in F/Z and would have actually died from having his heart crushed by True Assassin.

>>118532172
Not possible.

>x can kill servants, discuss
is effectively an immortal topic by now if it wasn't already so years ago.

>>118532172
Why not give a good reason instead of just stating what you want.

>>118524689
And by 'beat him', we mean 'survived in combat against him until he achieved his true objective, at which point TA stopped bothering to try and kill him, partially because he found him so interesting'. TA could've gone ahead and killed Kirei, pretty easily, given how badly injured he was. He deliberately made the choice not to.

What's Kuzku's wish?

>>118534346
Why would he have one? He's only Rider's master because he rid her real good when he chanced upon her in the rain.