>>118013039 That's the problem, even he knows it's supposed to be the case, but he can't help it when the only thing bringing him joy is the suffering of others. Before Gil made him what he is now Kotomine tried to do his best in hope he can either know his purpose or become a new person, now he's just insane.
>>118014452 *runs behind you summoning multiple blades tawake, you will die here *360 jumps away shooting unmissable exploding arrows pssh, nothing personal seigi no mikata this is just the fate of all heroes
>>118014880 >muh "extremists with good intentions" Fuck those antagonists, they are gay as fuck. Villains who can be both evil and charismatic like Kirei are what we need, not those "I was just trying to save everyone, I'm not really a bad person even though I killed your whole family and raped your grandma's dead body."
>>118012525 I agree with OP, but because "hurr the Church/Gov was the bad guy all along" is a fucking hackneyed plot-twist that just feels boring now. The days I get more surprised if said institutions actually stay good and do nothing by the end of the story.
>>118015851 But the Nasuverse Church is fairly decent, they pretty much kill vampires and abominations like that to protect humanity. Kirei is evil because he was born like that, not because he is a priest. In fact, if it wasn't for his father teaching him about morals, the value of life and all that shit he would be Ryuunosuke 2.0
You know what? Risei must've been a fucking AMAZING father. He managed to raise Kirei of all people into an upstanding, god-fearing man even if he was still a hollow shell on the inside, and he would've stayed that way too if Gilgamesh hadn't fucked it all up.
>>118016892 >And the Burial Agency ain't exactly full of righteous, noble souls either. For the greater good.
>Also remember that they dissected Currybutt for a month without anesthetic when they discovered she was immortal. What would you do? Let the immortal go his way and see what happens? No you want to figure out how it works.
>>118016858 >he's just a natural troll at heart No that's Rin >Her hobbies are admiring jewels and bullying Shirou. >She's a mischievous girl at heart, so she loves teasing serious people. Please, try to bear with it, Shirou.
>>118018269 >Therapy exists to make people acceptable for society, not to ruin them completely. Except Kirei was still a perfectly well functioning member of society? He just became honest with himself.
>>118018527 He didn't do anything that could be considered detrimental to society until his fight with Shirou. He was helping him save Sakura and fucked up a 500 yo evil worm magus. Not to mention how much he helped Shirou with his internal conflict and doubts.
>hey guys, lets work together to reach the Root and improve our magic >except for the part where we put a Seal Designation on anyone who is too close to the Root or has advanced too much on his magic research
>>118018946 Magicians in general are evil from humanity's perspective. Not magi, I mean like True Magicians.
See, the five tasks left for humanity (Second-Sixth Magics) are "necessary" for humanity to improve and live and all that, and would make us better off and shit. The Third Magic (excluding the Sixth) is the most beneficial for humanity, while the Fifth is the most dangerous, but even the Fifth is still needed.
Eventually, way into the future, science will be able to replicate those and they'll stop being Magics, like what's happened with everything else, but that won't be for a while.
Magicians are enemies of the World because they manipulate Akasha.
They're enemies of humanity because they could literally at any point share their Magic with humanity and popularize it to make people better off. They don't want to though, because then they lose their special-ness, then their Magic isn't Magic anymore and they stop mattering.
It's not like magecraft where revealing it kills the Mystery and makes it die, it's just selfishness.
tl;dr: True Magicians are evil monopolizers who want to stay special snowflakes at the cost of fucking over humanity.
>>118019029 >except for the part where we put a Seal Designation on anyone who is too close to the Root or has advanced too much on his magic research That's wrong though
> Magi from all over the world gather and devote themselves day and night to the study of magic, while at the same time, are busily tripping over and being tripped over by other factions and competing for power and budget. The organization is anything but harmonious and has a complicated bizarre structure, but the magical research there is without doubt the leading edge. >Separate from the normal ranks, color-based titles are given to those that have become special. >The organization handling patents relating to magic is also the Clock Tower, and the current finances of the Tohsaka family is being by covered by the patent royalties that are being transferred to their account. >The highest are red, blue, and yellow based on the three primary colors. After that, there are the combined colors of orange, purple, green, black, and so on. The further down you go, the less your rank is. Note that there is no rule about only one person for each color. The Association will, without any stinginess, award a color to you if you’re a magus of great stature or one with an unusual talent. Sealing Designations are actualy pretty rare.
>>118019150 I thought that your magic missing its mistery made it shit. Like, a magic that no one can understand and reproduce but you would be uber OP and broken, but the moment you explain how it works and the mistery is lost it would become shit.
>>118019366 >Someone hasn't played Mahoyo No I haven't but the complete material says this >True Magic. This is a different mystery than magery. Magi call the events that are unachievable by magery and science in that age True Magic. If that event could be achieved by time and resources, then no matter the difficulty, that event will not be seen as True Magic.
>>118019255 Not really, cause given time, even if the Magician doesn't help out, science will replicate them. Well, it's less like "science will replicate them" and more like "the magic will become mundane" in other words, people who aren't the wizard can use it, etc. Think of the magics as a milestone system. The Third is the most beneficial to humanity(Not counting the sixth) with the Fifth basically being something that's horrible for humanity. (If misused)
That being said, Magic will eventually become something that can be used by any human through the normal process of science. That's why magicians are enemies of humanity and the world; for the world, it is something unnatural. For humanity, you're being a total dick and stunting human progress by keeping your reality bending stuff all to yourself.
>>118019428 Yes, because he is conscious of his evilness. He is not Angra Manju, even if he can't feel it he understands about morals, ethics and good and evil. He tried to change himsell, yes, but in the end he accepted his own nature and brought suffering to many people. Kotomine is evil.
>>118019504 Right, exactly. That's the set-up the Magicians frame.
You know that things besides the modern Magics were Magics before, right? Starting a fire for example used to be a True Magic. That guy who first figured out how to start a fire set up barriers to entry so other people wouldn't figure it out. That's why it was "True Magic".
Given time, the feat was eventually replicated/made mundane. That's the whole premise of True Magic.
Think of it in a different way. If it was really 100% impossible to do, how would the Magician do it in the first place? It's a feat they accomplished by touching [ ] and finding a way to access and thus manipulate it, right?
>>118019528 That doesn't realy make sense in combination with >>118019504 But than again >Nasu >staying consistent >making sense
True Magic. This is a different mystery than magery. Magi call the events that are unachievable by magery and science in that age True Magic. If that event could be achieved by time and resources, then no matter the difficulty, that event will not be seen as True Magic. When the civilization of mankind was still young, all magery had been True Magic. But along with the advancement of science, the number of things that "could be done" by people had increased, and in exchange, True Magic diminished. The number of remaining "True Magics" in the modern era are extremely few, only 5. In "Fate/stay night", the achievement of one of these, the "Third True Magic", occupied the portion of the Grail War that could also be said to be its base.
>>118019727 There's no contradiction. Reread what you posted.
>But along with the advancement of science, the number of things that "could be done" by people had increased, and in exchange, True Magic diminished.
See? As time goes on, what humans can do expands, and things that were Magic are made mundane. That could be helped along the process if the Magician who figured out how to touch [ ] was willing to help out, but even if they don't there's still going to be made mundane sooner or later.
Pretty much everything was a True Magic at some point or another, if you travel far enough back. Lighting a fire, for instance. It just becomes mundane with time.
If you're still not quite getting it, I can try to explain further or just boot up Mahoyo and skim through it for Aoko's infodump.
>>118019555 The only thing he understands are morals and ethics taught to him. That by no means makes them objectively correct.
He was someone who truly wanted to find his path in life, and when that path turned out to be one of inflicting suffering on others he accepted it. (With some help from Gil.) Does Gil, who is himself Chaotic Good, think Kirei is evil?
Kirei is Neutral/Chaotic Neutral if anything. He's basically a hedonist who was given the choice between living a martyr-esque life of misery due to being excluded by the morals of others, or doing the only thing that brings him joy. Of course he picked the latter.
>>118019924 >That could be helped along the process if the Magician who figured out how to touch [ ] was willing to help out, but even if they don't there's still going to be made mundane sooner or later. Wasn't there something about Shirou being completly unable to use the second magic with the gemsword while Rin could? How does that fit in?
>>118020073 The gemsword isn't the actual Second Magic. It's just one Zel's Mystic Codes that uses a fragment of the Second Magic. The deal with that is you need "the blood of Schweinborg" to use the gem sword, like when he built the blueprints, part of the blueprints was "only X people can use this thing".
It's not related to how Magic works at all, it's just a feature of the gem sword that Zel built in.
So if the world doesn't run of prana like in 90% of the timelines we have seen in some far future humanity will be capable of doing shit like time-travelling or materializing their souls? I don't want to live in that world.
>>118020165 One thing is causing suffering because there is no way to avoid it, other thing is to actively cause the suffering of others. Kirei doesn't cause people to suffer as a side-efect of his actions, the goal of his actions is to cause other people suffering
>>118020336 Nah, her crest has nothing to do with Zel. The Edelfelt that the Tohsaka family shacked up with post-3rd Grail War is the main source of their magecraft, because Edelfelt Conversion Attribute is what lets Rin use gems and stuff.
It's pretty much just a permission set for certain people that Zel wanted, probably because he didn't feel like if some nobody got ahold of the blueprints that they should be able to use the toy he made for someone else.
>>118020473 >The Edelfelt that the Tohsaka family shacked up with post-3rd Grail War is the main source of their magecraft, because Edelfelt Conversion Attribute is what lets Rin use gems and stuff. Nope. The Tohsaka were specialised on Conversion from the beginning. They just made a very big leap after "stealing" one of the 2 Edelfelt crests
>>118020481 Ah yes, that. That's never been 100% confirmed, but that's the main theory on the matter.
Prevent the Sixth, as it heralds the end of the world. Become the Sixth, and lead the world into a new golden age. That contradiction is where that theory gets weird.
The thing about the Sixth Magic is that it seems to just be the "miracle" of "if everyone was happy". In that sense, I guess the calculations of Atlas could see it as a dead end, but it still seems weird.
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