Can anime be art?

>>117285182
Yes, but there's only shit in this image.

>>117285207
Have you seen any of it?

>>117285223
Yes.

>>117285285
What have you seen and why is it shit?
What would you say was anime as art if not this?

>>117285182
You literally just saved that image a few hours ago didn't you?

>>117285182
It doesn't matter whether anime can be art or not.

Important is that it's not seen as art, in order to keep people out who have no genuine interest in anime but would only try to define themselves through their interest in anime due to its reputation of being art in order to make themselves look sophisticated.

The less people think of it, the better /a/ will be.

>>117285823
>Important is that it's not seen as art
It already is seen as art, just not as anime. These kinds of things get shown at film festivals internationally.

>>117285849
I was referring to the anime we regularly watch.

duh?

>>117285866
That would never be seen as "art". The stuff in OP is anime under the /a/ definition of 'cartoon from Japan'. They do not however fit in the average persons image of anime. They can be seen as art without anime being seen as art.

>>117285823
Also why is someones interest in anime as art disingenuous compared to your interest in anime? In what way is your interest superior?

>>117286045
Had you read my post attentively you would have realised that I answered that question already.

>people [...] who have no genuine interest in anime but would only try to define themselves through their interest in anime due to its reputation of being art in order to make themselves look sophisticated.

People who like something despite it being reviled have a genuine interest since there is nothing to gain for them from a social perspective.

>>117286141
Why would someone liking anime as art be disingenuous in that though? They could just like anime as art. People do like art you know? Liking art isn't something people pretend to do in order to be sophisticated.

>>117286203
>isn't
Should have been 'isn't just'

everything is art.

>>117286255
my dick in your mom ass was art

>>117285823
better in what sense?

>>117286301
I believe he is taking the "Keep out the normies, preserve our secret club." line.

>>117286328
not him but it's more of "keep the pretentious dickheads who smell their own farts out of our sekrit clab" anime is already full of normies

>>117286203
I've already answered that question.

People flock to whatever is popular, whatever is socially revered. Holding an interest in certain things (or pretending to do) is a sign of sophistication in certain peoples' eyes. That is why it elevates the social status when it comes to being knowledgeable about them.

We don't need people who hold an interest because it elevates their social status.

>Liking art isn't something people pretend to do in order to be sophisticated.
More often than not it is.

Where can I buy White Road and Lemon Road by Murata?

Why won't Namiki Takashi send me my DVDs?

Anime isn't art. It's 10000000 years too early to reach this level of sophistication.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKFZOIv5sS0

It's Noburou Oofuji, not Noboru Ofuji.

>>117286328
It's not so much about normies in this case. At least not the archetypical normies. The types of people I want out are normies too of course - because a desire for anime to be regarded as "art" comes with a desire of social acceptance and social recognition. They don't want their normalfag friends to think they're wasting their time. They want people to think they were doing something sophisticated when watching their Chinese girl cartoons. A genuine interest doesn't care about social recognition.

>>117286442

even rail wars is better than this shit as art

>>117286394
>We don't need people who hold an interest because it elevates their social status
People who watch anime already do this anyway, just inside their own social groups rather than outside. You can't post on /a/ unless you have seen x number of shows and so on. People are watching anime to increase their social status within anime social circles.

>>117286394
>Independent Japanese animation
>Popular
>Socially revered

Can you be any more delusional?

>>117286564
>You can't post on /a/ unless you have seen x number of shows and so on.
/a/ expects a general interest in anime though. You can't simply watch Cowboy Bebop, Ghost in the Shell, Akira and Eva and consider yourself an anime connoisseur here. In order to participate you need to widen your horizon.

>>117286631
I'm talking about art in general.

>>117286631
It is funny he has that perception about people who like art because unless you are some kind of academic or richfag pretty much nobody will know what the fuck you are talking about or even care.

With how obnoxious it is to find some of that stuff you'd think the few people interested in it would put up some DVDRIPs. Some of that stuff is probably never going to be released again and is impossible to find now (or almost).

>>117286676
>unless you are some kind of academic or richfag pretty much nobody will know what the fuck you are talking about
I think you need to spend more time on the internet, which is filled with people who consider themselves knowledgeable in matters of art.

>>117286506
2archaicuncontrollableintuitive4u

>>117286742
I think you need to stop posting until you're over 18 years old and know what you're talking about.

>>117286742
Of course the internet. In actual everyday life though nobody is going to know anything about or care about or even be impressed by your interest in art. Unless you are talking maybe about films or music and even then when you get away from the mainstream most people won't be following anymore.

>>117286790
I'm actually quite a bit older than that and the fact that you're attempting to discredit me by claiming I was underage, because you're unable to use facts and reasoning like civilised person, says a lot about yourself.

>>117285182

Art is subjective, anything can be art, it's up to the person themselves whether or not it is.

Some people can find literal shit as art while others do not.

It is pointless to argue that certain stuff should and shouldn't be art, when all of them is art (i.e. you're basically trying to get people to agree with a personal opinion)

Video games are art
Anime is art
Eating shit upside down is art

you get the point

>>117286814
And now reconsider what this argument is about.

Read my initial post again: >>117285823.

I'll even help you:
>The less people think of it, the better /a/ will be.

Does that look like I'm referring to real life? No, I'm clearly referring to /a/.

>>117286883
It is a hard argument to make that people like art for social recognition and acceptance when the vast majority are entirely ignorant to its existence. You will only get recognition within a small group online somewhere who also wank over the same stuff.

>>117286790
And you fucking wonder why no one wants artfags polluting this place.

>>117286957
I meant to link this post
>>117286917

>>117286957
>You will only get recognition within a small group online somewhere who also wank over the same stuff.
That is my whole point. These are the types of people we don't need in here.

Insecure people who flock to what is socially revered in order to make themselves look sophisticated.

My take is: the less people think of anime, the better this place is, because it means that only those who actually like anime will be here and who don't give a fuck about what people in real life think.

>>117285182
Why is "drawn like shit" synonymous with "artistic" for some people?

>>117286957
People don't have to know shit about whatever cool gibberish you're spouting to think "Oh wow anon, you're so learned and sophisticated". Plenty of people get into art to be trendy and hip.

>>117287035
>socially revered
Art isn't socially revered though outside its own small community nobody knows or cares about it for the most part.
>make themselves look sophisticated
Sophisticated to the three other people on their Internet community.

I agree with "the less people think of anime, the better this place is" but this whole idea that people who like art only like it because it makes them look sophisticated is just unrealistic. There are hundreds of different types of art to be interested in from african tribal sculpture to musique concrète.

Tell me why you would decide on any particular one to pretend to be interested in instead of one you were genuinely interested in? Even if your motivation was at least in part social recognition?

>>117287159
Nobody over the age of college will be impressed if you know a lot about art, unless they themselves are interested in art.

>>117286740
Maybe they want to keep the film ultra rare to make their copy more valuable and hip to own.

>>117287205
>Art isn't socially revered though outside its own small community nobody knows or cares about it for the most part.
This isn't exactly true. Just look around on the internet - as soon as you enter even remotely educated spheres you'll find plenty of people who define themselves as sophisticated through an interest in art. You rarely see some hipster claiming he had no interest in art.

>Sophisticated to the three other people on their Internet community.
No, sophisticated in general.

>people who like art only like it because it makes them look sophisticated is just unrealistic.
I'm not the one talking in absolutes. I do believe there are people with genuine interest in it - however, they're outnumbered by those who don't.

>why you would decide on any particular one to pretend to be interested in instead of one you were genuinely interested in
In most cases interest isn't truly "feigned". The most critically acclaimed works usually are reasonably well received and well regarded because they have a certain mass appeal and can be appreciated by a great many people. The problem with those who don't hold a genuine interest is that their perspective ends there. They don't look any further than that. And that's what makes them toxic to the culture of discussion, because they regard themselves as knowledgeable and sophisticated, judges of "good taste", because after all they've watched all the critically acclaimed works from that top 10 list they've found in that hipster forum, but they're forgetting that in order to actually tell what said shows or films did well it's usually necessary to have a comparative perspective. Which one simply doesn't gain from having watched a handful of shows. Not to mention that someone with a genuine interest can also enjoy the mediocre, find delight in the surprise when a mediocre show does something unusual. Follow the development of certain talents in the industry, see them improve, etc.

>>117285182

It is art, they are drawings.

on /mu/ some girl took a picture of her period stained underware and sold it for 2500, and that's considered art.

>>117285182
Before we answer this, we must ask: what is art?

>>117287355
It's not really valuable though, otherwise you'd see some pop up for high prices.

>>117287550
Stop pretending you know what you're talking about when you put TV shows on the same level as experimental films. If you think people who watch seasonal garbage have more taste than people who watch art films, you're just jealous because you don't get it.

>>117287550
I'm really not buying it at all. There is nobody that consciously chooses to spend their time consuming art they've no interest in to appear sophisticated. Most people won't watch 30 seconds of boring TV let alone sit and watch thousands of hours of subtitled cartoons they've no interest in. I understand the kind of person you are talking about but I just don't see it happening that much.

>>117287893
You're somewhat in the same position as him anon

>>117287783
Not valuable in monetary sense. Valuable in look at this rare shit in my collection I am the master of independent animation way. People who tried hard to collect shit don't just want to make it simple for someone else. They should have to work for it too.

>>117287893
Not him, but wow. You can't read, can you?

>>117287918
I watch TV too, I just don't pretend it has any artistic value (95-99% of the time). The reasons for that are obvious. Independent animators can do what they want without outside pressure and try new ideas.

>>117287893
Thanks for exemplifying my whole point.

If you only hold an interest in these "experimental films", ruling out the "seasonal garbage" - i.e. the vast majority of anime made, then you clearly have no real interest in anime. You only care about a select few things that happen to be anime.

And in my opinion you can take your tangential interest in anime outside because you simply have nothing to contribute here because you lack a broad knowledge on the subject.

>>117288031
>I watch TV too, I just don't pretend it has any artistic value (95-99% of the time).
Wow

>The reasons for that are obvious. Independent animators can do what they want without outside pressure and try new ideas.
Wow anon. You really are dense.

>>117287996
Those people don't collect DVDs, they collect actual film, like the Anido guy (who does sell DVDs of some of it including amazing Masaoka stuff).

>>117288055
By that logic the seasonal babies should just fuck off to Reddit too, since independent animation and old animation is also part of anime, and they only care about what airs right now, a small part of the subject.

It's much more likely for someone having developed interest in history of the medium or experimental animation to have wide knowledge on the medium than for the average b/a/by.

>>117288143
That's not always possible and its better to have a DVD than nothing.

>>117288318
No hardcore collector would say that. That's my line and I'm for sharing it. No one will ever upload the Maya Yonesho DVD and that's sold out. It's literally gone from the world.

>>117288234
>By that logic the seasonal babies should just fuck off to Reddit too
What you consider "seasonal babies" are just people with a regular interest in anime. By being a "seasonal baby" for years and years, you prove that your interest is genuine. Not by watching the top 10 from some list on the internet.

>they only care about what airs right now
That is your assumption. But I'd argue that the fact that someone who doesn't care what airs right now either has no real interest in anime or he's not the connoisseur he pretends to be because his backlog of past anime is still very long and he thus has the luxury to pick from the "greats". People who have been fans of anime for a bit longer than that though are stuck with seasonal shows. That's us. That's /a/.

>It's much more likely for someone having developed interest in history of the medium or experimental animation to have wide knowledge on the medium than for the average b/a/by.
I think not. I think people who demonstratively present themselves as having an interest in "experimental animation" in order to set themselves apart from the "babies" who watch "seasonal garbage" are more likely to be into the whole thing for reputation rather than substance. That is also why you never see them talk about anything but themselves. They don't talk about that great animation they're watching, they're talking about the fact that they're watching great animation and others are not. And that's what I mentioned earlier in regards to these sorts of people being toxic to the discourse.

>>117288517
>People who have been fans of anime for a bit longer than that though are stuck with seasonal shows. That's us. That's /a/.

/a/ is people barely better than Reddit who think they've seen everything when they haven't touched anything that sold less than 100k copies or that aired before 1970 (really more like 1990 for the majority but let's go with 1970).

You think even 10% of /a/ has seen anything by Oofuji? Even anything by Masaoka? What about Astro Boy? No. Too busy circlejerking about le best girl every season. You are clearly among them, so go have your fun, no one's keeping you here. Just don't pretend that's taste.

File: 1416496133613.gif (1002KB, 480x270px) Image search: [Google]

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Of course it can.

Ping Pong is a work of art.

>>117285182
NO and hopefully it'll stay this way.

>>117288582
I think you're projecting. Plenty of people here have been into anime for quite some time. Plenty of older anime aired on public TV when they were young - that's how they got into it in the first place.

If your interest were genuine, you'd be starting threads about these shows. Discuss what you feel like is in need of being discussed. But it's more likely that you don't know what to discuss. You're using the shows and their reputation as a vehicle to set yourself apart from people whom you regard as lacking taste.

I frankly don't know what you're doing in here.

>>117288765
Good job writing so many words without disproving my point.

>>117285182
Yes. Most things are art. It's the word itself that is holding too much meaning and people think art equals good quality product.

>>117288844
What was your point again?

You've claimed that /a/ hasn't watched older anime and I've told you that you're projecting because plenty of people here indeed have watched older anime. It's no special feat when you're old yourself, because these shows aired on TV.

But my post went a bit further. It attacked your position, calling it not-genuine. I told you that you're lacking an honest interest because otherwise you'd be discussing what you feel is in need of being discussed. Yet I can't remember you doing any of that. Can you link me to the archive referring to any threads about these shows you've started?

I bet you can't. Because you don't want to discuss these shows. As I said earlier: you merely use their reputation to make yourself seem sophisticated.

And if you hold no interest in the vast majority of anime out there - the seasonal shows, which are commonly discussed on /a/, then I don't know what you're doing in here.

Do you have anything to reply to that or are you going to claim again that I didn't "disprove" your point, when I obviously did?

>>117289049
>>>http://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/2n31v2/more_anime_places_on_the_www/

>>117289397
Good for you that you know about reddit so well already, so you might as well stay there.

>>117289539
Just goes to show how easy it is to prove that /a/ is Reddit at this point.

>You went on a website for a minute, so you belong there!

Kill yourself.

>>117289611
I agree with that anon you should fuck off back to reddit.

>>117289611
>Just goes to show how easy it is to prove that /a/ is Reddit at this point.
If that's what you think, you might as well go and stay there. There's no difference after all.

In any case, if your only defence to my post in >>117289049, is linking to reddit, then it kinda looks like you got told and we might as well end the discussion here.

File: 1414136722350.jpg (17KB, 428x469px) Image search: [Google]

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No, anime was never intended to be a form of art. An actual piece of art inspires a person, it moves them, makes them think about the universe and humankind. Anime is but a superfluous, artsy form of entertainment it only inspires a viewer to stroke their cock. Same with manga which is basically doodles. Anyone can draw it, even dumbfucking mouthbreathing junior high school faggots do it.

tl;dr: It's not art, it's fucking shit, just like all modern 'art'. You watch it for fun, that's it, there's no some special meaning to it.

>>117289811
Says who? Osamu Tezuka practically invented the commercial TV anime market and he was also an important early figure in experimental animation.

>>117290001
What's that have to do with anything?

>>117289811
>>117290060
>was never intended to be a form of art
>was a form of art long before it was commercialized

>>117290098
You seem to be implying quite a few things there.

>>117289811
>An actual piece of art inspires a person, it moves them, makes them think about the universe and humankind
So anime is art?

>>117285823
>putting art on a pedestal

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>>117287747
Art is a blast

File: Book Scoot McLoud art 1.jpg (139KB, 333x500px) Image search: [Google]

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>>117289811
>makes them think about the universe and humankind
see
>>117284982
On how Madoka questions moral.

I do like Scott Mc Loud defintion of art. Pic related.