Shirou could have been a great protagonist. He just doesn’t want to be a superhero, he has a real motivation thanks to his a survivor's guilt trauma, seeing Kiritsugu's happy face, and the last thing he said to Kiritsugu before he died being that he would become a superhero. Also the thing where he doesn't have fun, or doesn't think he deserves fun. And he he really believes that his goal is beautiful enough to be worth pursuing and not just an obligation. That’s at least Peter Parker-level or even Bruce Wayne-tier messed up as far as superhero origin stories go.
Unfortunately yet Fate/Stay Night does the usual mistake of generic shounen-series by trying to make its protagonist blunder about. (In order to make him more relatable, one assumes).
Therefore Shirou always has no clue what’s going on, and just sort of gets dragged about by the flow, but in the end he perseveres just by being the densest guy in the room.
Take this episode. He gets ambushed by Rin because he was wandering about in an empty school and somehow missed the fact that it was empty even as he told Rin there were people around. Rin shoots at him with bone-breaking force and he just complains that he doesn't want to fight. Rider attacks him and he makes fun of her and gets rekt because he forgot to pull out the dagger in his arm. Rin rescues him and he asks if she wants to keep trying to kill him instead of reading the mood.
It’s not like he’s a generic character at the end of it all. By the end of the story he's come into his own. But you shouldn't start out with a generic boring protagonist and then try to make such a character more interesting. A strong lead should have some kind of hook, something superficial to make you like him that will hold you over until his character develops further.
That’s what Shirou is: A character that becomes more interesting over time, but not one who is compelling for the twenty hours of shit before then.
I knew going in that Sakura forcefully NTRs Saber away from him, so I was actually pleasantly surprised by the level of working relationship they established before that happened.
>Rin rescues him and he asks if she wants to keep trying to kill him instead of reading the mood.
He did actually read the mood. Don't really know what to say about the adaptation, but he was effectively teasing Rin. He likes to do that.
He may have been being facetious but he seems serious enough.
>he has a real motivation thanks to his a survivor's guilt trauma
Read the VN before posting shit.
The ONLY reason he wanted to become a superhero is because he wanted to continue Kiritsugu's dream. This is explicitly said in the novel.
He's just a hypocrite who wants to save people to feel good and that he's doing what he thinks Kiritsugu would have done. This is why the "Rejoice" scene with Kotomine is so important, and why his dinamic with Archer works.
For some reason people behave like he doesn't actually have survivor's guilt and that it never influenced his actions. Only because it wasn't the reason he wanted to pursue his ideal.
Shirou does indeed have a serious case of survivor's guilt. And it always influenced him.
Not him but
Gil deathnot even a fan but it was so retarded and coming from nowhere.
And sakura too, oh god sakura
I get that she is a victim, her mind was broken but she should have been sane enough( from what i saw in the first half of the route) to not something as retarded as going back to Zouken and betray the people that cared for her.
That said the beginning was slow but the last quarter of HF was the best thing in F/SN.
High point were higher and low point were lower than UBW.
Best example of that is Fate/ zero kotomine before getting enlightened by Gil.He thought that he believed that he was a man that should act according to his father teachings and values.
But actually, well, Kirei is kirei, a guy who gets joy from tragedy and suffering.
I disagree with your opinions related to UBW and HF.
I didn't like UBW because it had too much Caster in it and everyone knew that Caster was just a side villain.Oh and Shirou fighting servants 1x1 just makes me cringe.
Gilgamesh should have become Alter like Saber.Honestly the lack of Gilgamesh and Saber in HF is the only bad thing about the route.If you didnt like Sakura you're not gonna like the route,so i guess when it comes down to HF its just opinions and taste.
Why didnt Shirou use Rule Breaker on Saber?
How those the novel state this again?
I always saw his survivor guilt to work hand in hand with his relationship with Kiritsugu. He thinks it isn't really fair that he was the only person who was able to be saved from the disaster and that everyone should have been able to be saved. Kiritisugu expressed a similar thought noting that he wasn't able to do that, motivates Shirou to do all he can to help everyone.
It isn't like the two things are completely isolated. Shirou wouldn't have been nearly as motivated if he wasn't the sole survivor from the fire.
Of course if there is something in the text that I forgot about that completely proves me wrong, please disregard.
HF feels more like a "behind the scenes" of the 5th war dealing with all the smaller stuff that the story never went into with Fate/UBW. That makes it have somewhat worse pacing and a bit more scattered. I do think it could work as a movie but it won't be a simple adaption for sure.
Yup, I agree with this. You're missing the whole point of UBW if you say his drive is anything but the result of "admiring something sacred": Kiritsugu's redemption in saving him, and his dream of a perfect superhero. I can't see how someone could enjoy anything about the story if Shirou's actions are all seen as the result of survivor's guilt.
A duckling will follow the first animate thing it sees, considering it to be its parent. Shirou's mind is wiped by trauma, and the first thing he sees is Kiritsugu saving someone.
>If you didn't like Sakura
But i liked her, really, but the contradiction in her acts is just blatant and kind of stupid
maybe angry manjew corrupted her mind, i don't recall exactly but she seemed to be lucid
>Oh and shirou 1v1 servants just makes me cringe
Yup, that totally didn't happened in HF.
Also i think that as long as shirou is using a NP, he can kill servants.
Don't forget that Gil isn't an wielder but an owner, he isn't used to fight with a weapon in hand but shooting his ennemy with GoB/Ea while shirou was training with saber. And in his fight against himself, well, emiya was doubting himself and let himself get killed.
Anyway how can shirou beat saber alter when she has A in both strenght and endurance?
Kirei already had a clue to what could actually bring him joy though, he just decided to stop searching.
From HF interlude 15-4:
It happened long ago.
He can't remember her voice or her face.
But sometimes he thinks,
'I wanted to kill her.'
Is that for his pleasure, or
Is it grief over wanting to kill the one he loved with his own hands?
He cuts off his thought process whenever the answer flickers in his head.
It's something that should be hidden forever.
The woman's death was meaningless.
Her devotion couldn't change him.
But the man didn't want to consider her death to be worthless.
So he stopped searching for answers.
Gilgamesh can't be corrupted, his ego is too big for that. That's why the Shadow broke him down to mana immediately, before he tried to get out on his own.
With Archer's ultimate technique, a quite literal sure-kill attack.
It was a necessary reaction. Regardless of the mood, it's only natural to be defensive against someone who was trying to shoot you down just moments before.
If anything, he should be more distrustful of her.
It's kind of hard to miss since it's the climax of the entire route. Archer says the only reason he followed the ideal was because of guilt that it was sophistry to make him feel better.
Shirou says this is wrong and is proven by his victory in the fight where Archer admits his defeat. The reason why Shirou does the things he does is because he thought act of saving someone was beautiful and thought it was wonderful if he live an entirely selfless life.
That's the point of the story, even if it leads to his own personal hell he won't regret it, because it was what he honestly believed in.
It's not like he had ever the chance to use it during any of the routes (conditional to him willing to win that battle). He might have used it against Berserker, but that would've been just one life out of the six he took
>he has a real motivation thanks to his a survivor's guilt trauma, seeing Kiritsugu's happy face, and the last thing he said to Kiritsugu before he died being that he would become a superhero
Try finishing reading the sentence
Saber, Rider and arguably Rin were at their best in HF, pretty much every other servant had a better run in UBW.
Discussing whether UBW Shirou or HF Shirou is better is like opening a can of worms, so I won't go there.
>MUH BATTLE EXPERIENCE ARM
I remember I read the Sparks Liner High ending (before I had read the VN) because someone had posted a link in a Fate thread, I thought Shirou was using his projection to pull experience and memories from his future-self (instead of the arm), I thought that was great since Shirou is Mr. UBW and Archer is just a man made of swords
Stakes were lower for Rin in Fate and UBW so she never really left her usual smug ass, know-it-all mode even when the situation was difficult
pic related. Since HF gives her the only difficult moral dilemma she hasn't trained to face prior to the HGW it also gives us a different, not so sure of herself Rin.
In Fate, Shirou spends half the route trying to get Saber to be happy and realize her wish is wrong. He succeeds.
In UBW, Rin spends half the route trying to get Shirou to be happy and realize his desire to become a hero is going to net him a really tragic end someday. It's hard to tell if she succeeds or not.
It was because he was desperate for an excuse to not let her get hurt.
He doesn't have that attitude towards anyone else, nor does he have it towards Saber in either Unlimited Blade Works or Heaven's Feel.
It's only natural to not want the one you've fallen for to stay safe.
i understand that but there are much better ways than just repeating the same line over and over again, like maybe confronting her or something, i don't know
fuck, that's why my brain was trying to say something to me when i played realta nua
Like I said, he was desperate.
Well, it takes him a while, but he eventually realizes he was being a moron.
Hopefully, if they ever do adapt Fate again, Nasu has them leave some of the dumber bits out. I have nothing against Shirou falling for Saber, and all things considered, I think it's fairly natural for him to do so. But the whole repeated "you're a girl" thing felt unnatural. It felt too much like Shirou was trying to convince the audience moreso than anything else. That's pretty unnecessary.
Fate/Zero secondaries clearly show that there are plenty of people capable of falling for Saber regardless of whether the narrator repeatedly mentions her gender or not.
He'd probably rewrite the shit out of it, that's for sure.
He wanted to rewrite Rakkyo completely too, and look at how long it's taking him to rewrite Tsukihime.
I guarantee you that the final product will be nothing like the original doujin work we read over a decade ago. Nasu hates anything he wrote more than five years before.
She got a strong "aura".
I don't know what i'm saying but that's the only way i can describe it.
This thread is realitively small and most posts don't exeed 5 lines, why are you impressed by that?
Well, she didn't get much screentime on other routes, and whenever that happened her characterization amounted to little more than 0.
Arguable, but can see why. Especially in the final confrontation with Sakura.
If the route where she's at her best is the one where she
die____about halfway in and spend the rest of the time as Sakura/Shadow puppet, that say a lot about the character.
George Lucas was always a hack. He always needed someone to reign him in and keep him from adding too much stupid shit. It's just that for the prequels, there was no one around to do that and he had free reign to do whatever the fuck he wanted.
Shirou isn't exactly a normal person. Throughout the entire VN, he is characterized more as a machine than a person. The human he could've been was destroyed in the fire and what came out was a reforged sword. That is why he is so systematic and why he only has one focus. Nasu says that he didn't know how else to write Shirou telling Saber is a girl, but honestly, I think the way he did write it was overall a better characterization. You don't like how he just hammered the same thing and same phrases to Saber, but that is the only he could do it as a defunct person.
I find it hard to choose between UBW Saber and HF Saber. Although you don't see much of Saber in HF, the scene
before you stab her heart before she stabs youreally tightened something around my heart.
This whole analysis is idiotic. Your first paragraph brings up and praises how Shirou is in fact an interesting character, yet you then go on to say that he's actually boring without providing any reason why. Statements like "Unfortunately yet Fate/Stay Night does the usual mistake of generic shounen-series by trying to make its protagonist blunder about" is lacking in context and I'd argue isn't even a generic shounen trope. Your analysis of the episode as well is for the most part wrong and as such doesn't conform to the statements you're trying to make.
Johjo Locust fucked up because of overdoing something and changing this that were fine in the first place. Nasu on the other hand just lacked experience, I'm sure he'll do just fine.
Well I understand this, maybe I wouldn't even have a problem with it if Shirou didn't repeat himself so god damn much. It just became a chore for me.
It's not like I'm a writer or have a lot of experience with actual literature instead of chinese digital picturebooks, but surely there is some improvement that can be made with Shirou and Saber's whole "you're a girl" interaction.
I have to agree with this statement that most of the characters acted completely dumb for most of HF. I mean, some (if not most) of the things that made their situation worse could have easily been avoided if the characters (Shirou, Rin, Sakura, and Illya) had done things that would make their situation better.
>could have been a great character
Applies to every Nasuverse character. Nasu himself is mediocre at best as a writer and the only thing memorable about his works are the tragic waifus and badly written sex scenes. Fate Stay Night is a favorite to teenagers going through their chuuni phase. Once they grow out of it and read more novels (ones that are actually well-written and don't depend on shock value/haremshit) they'll realize it is just a generic battleshounen with pretentious idealism and sex thrown in.
Of course you aren't suppose to enjoy it. No one did, but that's why it fits Shirou so well. He simply doesn't have normal human tendencies and behaves like a robot that was programmed with only one protocol, and if things divert from it, he can only rerun the same program that can never solve the problem.
I personally don't like reading it, but when you think about it from the big picture, it really gives a good sense of who Emiya Shirou is in comparison to who the audience thinks he is.
Rin is probably the easiest character to actually relate to in the VN.
I thought she realized that later on. Anyway, Illya was at her best in HF. You could as far as to say that Sakura and Illya were co-protagonists in the route, just like Rin and Archer were in UBW.
I don't know about writing (based on what I've read of Nasu in Japanese, I feel it boils down to shitty translations) but the worldbuilding is on par with that of fantasy literature.
Shirou could have been a great protagonist if he had a personality. Or if he was a compelling character. Or if he didn't have an obligatory harem. Or if he didn't have literal plot armor. Or if he wasn't so generic and boring. He would have been decent if he was at least fun. Tired of moralfag betafag bishounens with harems pretending to be a super deep emo fighter even though they have "hidden potential" and plot armor. He's just a typical VN/LN protag and the writing in his VN is not as good as the writing in the F/Z novels. Flashy fight scenes don't make a series good, writing does. Shirou is a 3/10 MC at best.
She killed all of the villains in her route by herself, as opposed to Rin who was a damsel in distress who just sat tied to a chair for a huge part of it.
From what I've seen and heard, the stigma about Nasu being a bad writer pretty much only exists in the western community. Elevens poke more fun at the fact that it's chunni rather than poorly written.
>His whole life wasn't Unlimited Blade Works
Do you even bone your swords?
This anime's biggest problem is Fate/Stay Night itself. Or another way to phrase this would be that this adaptation's biggest enemy is its ambition to be a sequel to Fate/Zero.
Look, the ambition of the latter has actually improved the series so far, so I’m all for it. Sadly, though, this adaptation is way too faithful for its own good while also hinting at easily imaginable improvements. This series seems to excel at improving the original version of Fate/Stay Night and then keeps you reminding of why it needed improvement in the first place.
This episode is the perfect example of why F/SN story just doesn’t fit within the universe that was superficially hinted at by SN and was actually shown by F/Z. This adaptation tries to unite the difference in quality between F/SN and F/Z. But naturally they don’t want to risk the ire of the fans and so they try to stay faithful. This means, though, that we get an episode like this one. Really, this episode only makes sense within the most generic framework for a shounen battle.
This series is about a Grail-War. But the whole thing is kinda fucked up now because Anger Mop You, so the newest Grail-War is a fucking disaster. And by that, I mean it produces a generic shounen battle. One that has so much exposition that it can develop some good plot in the latter half. But the problem is that it hints at this far bigger universe full of mages and shit. And then F/Z came along actually showing off a proper HGW that led to the events of F/SN.
F/Z is out there in anime-form and in LN form, both are fairly good. Now, though, we have come back to the thing that started it all and yeah, it is kinda obvious that it was less ambitious in its beginnings compared to how popular it had become after its release. The real problem starts when you have a plot about a Grail War, this epic conflict where superhuman heroes battle for various magicians against each other and then you get someone like Shirou as a protagonist.
Shirou himself said that Kotomine is moments from death, Kotomine even backs that up later at the end of the fight.
He basically implies that e would have beaten Shirou if is heart was pulled moments later
>This anime's biggest problem is Fate/Stay Night itself. Or another way to phrase this would be that this adaptation's biggest enemy is its ambition to be a sequel to Fate/Zero.
You had an argument up to here here. But you literally give no examples to support any of your points, nor is there coherency in what you're even saying. D- see me after class to work on writing a coherent argument.
Argent fragments - http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/5217-Fate-Prototype-Fragments
This is up to date , however the translator generally switches between summaries and actual translated sections, the story is also told non lineally so watch out to that. Its currently up to date with the japs tho)
Apoc Vol 1 - https://canonrap.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/fateapocrypha/
Complete, PDF version to come some
Vol 2 - https://fateapocryphathetranslation.wordpress.com/volume-2/
Nearly half way done, gets updated bi weekly on average. Use the drop down at the top to access the chapter 2 bits.
Prisma Illya - http://bato.to/comic/_/comics/fatekaleid-liner-prisma%E2%98%86illya-r2728
Links to zwei and drei in there as well (up to date)
Fate Zero - http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Fate/Zero:Prologue
links to the next chapters are at the bottom of each page - Complete.
Fate CCC playthrough with translated dialouge - http://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2013/06/page/2/
Roughly about 3/4 of the way done, but gets updated regularly
Fate strange fake - http://nakulas.blogspot.ie/2013/07/fate-strange-fake.html
(This was the original book which is fully translated, however it was an april fools shenanigan so its only a prolouge for each of the servants/masters. Nasu has announced a full LN/manga adaptation though, so expect this to be retconned.
>no matter how you look at it, Kotomine killed Hassan
You really can't be serious
Kotomine just pinned Hassan to a tree for a brief second, in a fight where he admitted he didn't stand even half a chance if it came down to it.
Sakura ate Hassan after the fight, when Zouken tried to take over her body.
The actual episode is just lackluster within the storyline of this series. The conflict between the Masters and their Servants is portrayed as being paramount. Yet, we get extended scenes of characters ignoring that conflict. The first one is Shirou telling Saber (who’s way stronger than him) to just rest because she needed to recover her mana while he (who has been beaten up) would go to school. It seems somewhat naïve in regards to what the new Masters in this new War are doing, considering that the last time he was at school Lancer murdered him. Rin’s reaction to Shirou appearing at school is really natural at least in that regard.
There’s this moment where Shirou hears about how Shinji, may have done something bad to Ayako and all of a sudden the episode turns into this little mystery where he goes around asking people about it in a montage.
But that dull sequence gets interrupted by Rin trying to kill Shirou. And it opens with a really stupid moment where Shirou argues that he didn’t need to bring Saber to school because there are always people around. While he’s OBVIOUSLY completely alone with Rin. In the DEEN series this moment is played for laughs but here just seems like an overly serious waste of time.
We already know Rin doesn't want Shirou in particular dead thanks to Ep0. Rin trying to kill him in this episode is such a pretentious, tsundere-like way to hide her crush. But it should barely makes sense from Shirou's PoV that she would try to kill him in one moment then act flustered about taking care of him and calling a truce. But Shirou's mostly just confused and when she relents to his “charm”, he’s mostly just like “Yeah, I mean, I never considered you to be an enemy to begin with.”. Shirou just continues to be one of the most oblivious characters in this series – which is just fitting, of course, since he’s supposed to be nothing more than a generic shounen-battle-protagonist with a twist in the tail.
>Did you forget the part where he excorcised him?
That's not what fucking happened. All Kotomine did was throw a Black Key at Hassan when Hassan missed crushing his heart, and Kotomine admits that such a thing could never kill a servant.
When Hassan was pinned with the Black Key briefly Kotomine immediately targetted Zouken and tried exorcise him. This however did not work as we see he's still alive later, with Hassan.
We see Hassan still alive after that fight, until Sakura killed him a few scenes later.
As much as everyone is raving about the ufotable adaptation, it's obvious they are falling into the same pit DEEN did years ago.
Which is to say, by removing all the internal monologues and scenes like where he mops up his own blood, they’re not properly establishing Shirou as a character.
Reminder that Hakuno is the best Master. Even Archer's stronger under him/her than he is under Rin, who's supposed to have a lot of really high-class circuits.
According to Archer, Hakuno's circuit quantity is low, but their high quality makes up for that. It's likely that the quality of her circuits probably outrank even those of Rin's.
Rin wasn't trying to kill him. In the VN it's possible to fuck up and make Shirou get hit in the face with one of Rin's bullets. It just makes him pass out while she wipes his memory. There are 40 Bad Ends in the game and that's one of the only three that don't end with Shirou gored to death.
So then, under Hakuno, I'd imagine Saber's stats would be something like:
Sounds like you're the one being retarded.
When you see her from Shirou's perspective she's a very innocent, shy and king girl but during some of her intermission you can see more human side of her. Like masturbating to Shirou, expressing her conflicting feelings about his suffering and a bunch more.
>If I bring that up Sakurafags tend to remind me that this was the shadow
I'm a 50/50 Sakurafag so I happen to be a half-expert on the subject. Atrocities were in fact committed by evil baby that was holding Sakura at gun point. He even shot her in the head a couple times, causing temporary autism and passive submissiveness so you could say they are partners in crime but Sakura didn't really want any of that. She did want that after post failed rape power though, when she became somewhat delusional and started killing people that looked down on her.
They did cut a few scenes already. It might be in the BDs, so having such a rash accusation such as calling it DEEN 2.0 is really idiotic and blatantly ignorant. Also you don't account for any of Ufotable's past record either which surely is a good indicator of them not fucking this up.
>When you see her from Shirou's perspective she's a very innocent, shy and king girl
Even when UFO absolutely couldn't fit an important bit of exposition in the series, they at least included it in the Tiger Dojo extras on the BD. The scene everyone was whining about where Saber upgrades the motorcycle is a good example
I'm realy interested how they will do pic related.
My favourite romantic scene in F/SN
>they don't even hug eachother
Worst couple confirmed.
>My favourite romantic scene in F/SN
my nigga, this scene was the best romantic scene in the VN
>Those nero stats
>Prioritizing anything but strenght and endurance
Scene would not be the same if they hugged, also shirou and rin are the best couple. I'm not even saying this because rin is my favourite girl, they really are the best couple.
>two relationships in which one relies upon the other
>one relationship of equals who can go their own way but still support each other
how's that for symbolism
Point me at the oppressor.
Also that fanart just shows a different faccet of their relationship
don't worry, she'll get back at him and tease him in some way
I wouldn't mind it so much that Taiga doesn't have a route if she at least had an end that made her happy.
Because whatever the percentage of original TM fans there are, they get blown out of the water by new fans whenever something that's theirs gets an animu
I'd imagine dozens of daily threads worth of "read the fucking VN" would get a little agitating, so most of them are probably out and doing something productive
Nero ordinarily shouldn't qualify for the Saber class. The only reason she qualified was because of Imperial Prerogative. She so wholeheartedly believes that she should be a Saber that she became a Saber.
Her whole schtick is that her delusions are made real. She's just THAT delusional.
You know, a fight between Nero and Emiya must be pretty interesting what with the guy who can bootleg NPs so well they become real going against the chick whose so deluded she gains fucking skills out of it.
Look /a/, I really want to know - with no bullshitting or trolling - what is your stance on the best Type-Moon, Kotomine Kirei?
The funny thing is that, aside from Gilgamesh, none of Hakuno's Servants are actually all that strong. Even Imperial Prerogative only puts Nero in the same class as an average-level Servant. Tamamo-no-Mae should also be insanely strong, but she had to receive excessively huge nerfs in order to qualify as a Servant. Even her Noble Phantasm was nerfed to E-rank.
It's due to Hakuno's talent as a Master that they all manage to get as far as they do.
Well Emiya is average stats-wise but his particular skillset is stupid useful within Grail Wars, especially in the Moon War where he is literally nameless and UBW gains a surprisingly stupid boon.
That's just plot and game mechanics coming together. The game wouldn't be as enjoyable if you had their NPs unlocked from the very get-go. Moreover, UBW had no real point until you unlock Caladbolg and started spamming absurdly strong nukes that guard break.
Even so, it's canon that they don't use their Noble Phantasms until that stage. And at the time of the original EXTRA, Archer didn't have Excalibur Image.
In terms of ability, Hakuno's Servants are average, perhaps even below average. Even Archer states that all their hopes of victory lie on how well they can formulate their strategies.
That being said, Hakuno is able to boost their Servant up to 120% of their original power, so they're definitely a huge factor. Not to mention how they get Rin/Rani on their side, something no other Master would be able to do.
Honestly, even in Fate/EXTRA, Hakuno's victory against
Heaven's Holeis partially thanks to how much everyone loves them.
Truly, the greatest mary sue of all.
He's bellow Bazett class but still should be accepted
Also that's some creepy captcha
>>The Comments and article in this blog
Well fuck you too buddy. Next time think before giving someone a heart attack.
Why don't they give a fake name to saber, isn't it super suspicious? Also why doesn't no one question why there is a marking on his hand, as if it was a tattoo or something.
Why didn't Avalon change Shirou's origin to "Sheathe"?
The actual fans are busy discussing the superior product
she tried to suck his dick, but that is when rin interfered. crazy bitch.
>Not liking things that I like
What a pleb
How did she even win against lancer in Prisma?
Prisma Bazett is Servant tier
She beats Lancer and Archer unarmed, both stronger than their FSN versions.
Prisma is basically the only series where Gae Bolg actually works
I'd say it's more consistently enjoyable than the VN though it has nothing on the more climactic scenes
3rei is genuinely good though
>both stronger than their FSN versions.
A+ Luck and A-rank Instinct gives Saber an even stronger chance to dodge Gae Bolg done she did under Saber (with B-rank Luck). All of her stats are much higher under Rin and she can shoot off up to two Excaliblasts.
Even if it's massive, it's linear, takes a while to cast, and easy to see coming - that's why invisible air exists.
Plus, lancer can just stab her while she's going through the motions.
>Lancer with Gae Bolg that actually works and werewolf form
>Archer that can project Divine Constructs
Excalibur also takes time to use. That's why she rarely, if ever, uses it for sole 1v1s. There's a reason it's anti-fortress, not unit.
Honestly, Shirou Saber would be stronger vs Cu. Not as much mana, but she has access to AVALON. Much stronger than fucking Excalibur.
>Then took place the first twisting-fit and rage of the royal hero Cuchulain, so that he made a terrible, many-shaped, wonderful, unheard of thing of himself. His flesh trembled about him like a pole against the torrent or like a bulrush against the stream, every member and every joint and every point and every knuckle of him from crown to ground. He made a mad whirling-feat of his body within his hide. His feet and his shins and his knees slid so that they came behind him. His heels and his calves and his hams shifted so that they passed to the front. The muscles of his calves moved so that they came to the front of his shins, so that each huge knot was the size of a soldier's balled fist. He stretched the sinews of his head so that they stood out on the nape of his neck, hill-like lumps, huge, incalculable, vast, immeasurable and as large as the head of a month-old child.
>He next made a ruddy bowl of his face and his countenance. He gulped down one eye into his head so that it would be hard work if a wild crane succeeded in drawing it out on to the middle of his cheek from the rear of his skull. Its mate sprang forth till it came out on his cheek. His mouth was distorted monstrously. He drew the cheek from the jaw-bone so that the interior of his throat was to be seen. His lungs and his lights stood out so that they fluttered in his mouth and his gullet. He struck a mad lion's blow with the upper jaw on its fellow so that as large as a wether's fleece of a three year old was each red, fiery flake which his teeth forced into his mouth from his gullet.
>There was heard the loud clap of his heart against his breast like the yelp of a howling bloodhound or like a lion going among bears. There were seen the torches of the Badb, and the rain clouds of poison, and the sparks of glowing-red fire, blazing and flashing in hazes and mists over his head with the seething of the truly wild wrath that rose up above him. His hair bristled all over his head like branches of a redthorn thrust into a gap in a great hedge. Had a king's apple-tree laden with royal fruit been shaken around him, scarce an apple of them all would have passed over him to the ground, but rather would an apple have stayed stuck on each single hair there, for the twisting of the anger which met it as it rose from his hair above him.
>The Lon Laith ('Champion's Light') stood out of his forehead, so that it was as long and as thick as a warrior's whetstone. As high, as thick, as strong, as steady, as long as the sail-tree of some huge prime ship was the straight spout of dark blood which arose right on high from the very ridge-pole of his crown, so that a black fog of witchery was made thereof like to the smoke from a king's hostel what time the king comes to be ministered to at nightfall of a winter's day.
Saber, under Shirou, was able to overwhelm Lancer with ease. Even if he was under a Command Spell, she's no pushover. That A-rank Instinct is a high hurdle to overcome. And under Rin, Saber's much stronger.
And Lancer needs to back off in order to use Gae Bolg as well. He can't just use it willy nilly, he needs to charge it up with mana first.
Saber was able to stand against fucking Heracles, and she was also able to keep up with Assassin, who was canonically the most skilled Servant in the Fifth War, someone not even Lancer would want to go against.
Repeat: In terms of pure skill, Lancer is inferior to Assassin.
Saber's no pushover.
>When now this contortion had been completed in Cuchulain, then it was that the hero of valour sprang into his scythed war-chariot, with its iron sickles, its thin blades, its hooks and its hard spikes, with its hero's fore-prongs, with its opening fixtures, with its stinging nails that were fastened to the poles and thongs and bows and lines of the chariot.
>Exclaliblasts aren't terribly hard to dodge.
The narrative of Fate/Zero says that if Iskander put everything into Gordius Wheel's charge into evading the attack, he MIGHT be able to get away. Considering Via Expugnatio is a reckless charge crossing two hundred meters in an instant, this is incomparable to any hero's speed except Bellerophon-reinforced Pegasus.
Cu or even Achilles would not get away on foot from light accelerated by the dragon reactor.
Not really. She proves in F/HA she can sweep it over a tremendous area. That just risks damaging people in the background.
The increased stats are better for handling his speed though. Bazett Cu is meant to be superior to Kotomine Cu in almost every respect and he was doing damn well against Shirou Saber while having a shit master that went out of his way to nerf him even more. An unhinjed Cu wouldn't give Saber the opening needed to Avalon anyways.
Excalibur requires range though, and when you can see it coming, it's easy to avoid either by swerving or attacking her and preventing her from getting the channel off. Same for Gay Bulge
Her possessed shinai is too OP for the Grail War.
Disregarding noble phantasms, Diarmuid and Kojirou would beat Cu as well. They're not weak opponents.
And Gilgamesh only gets the edge because Gate of Babylon random effect spam is not something any amount of instinct can deal with.
All that would do is even up the odds some. Both were nerfed under their respective conditions. There's no guarantee that Lancer would be able to do much more than match Saber even if he weren't under Kotomine's Command Spell.
After that, the other major factor is the Master. How much of a boost can the Master grant the Servant? Rin is canonically a superior Magus to Bazett, even if Bazett's the far better fighter. So would the boosts Bazett can offer Lancer allow him to match up to the boost Rin offers to Saber?
According to Nasu, at their peaks, Lancer, Heracles and Saber are all comparable to one-another. Don't underestimate the King of Knights.
>There's no guarantee that Lancer would be able to do much more than match Saber even if he weren't under Kotomine's Command Spell.
Except that he is a Herakles-tier servant specialised in single combat
Then you're going against Nasu.
Of course he's a less famed hero so territory advantage would tilt it towards Cu, but Kotomine doesn't actually do much to penalize Cu (statistically) either. He's a sufficiently powerful magus.
>gets rekt by Deermud
Except she has the upper hand for pretty much the whole battle and the only reason it can be considered a loss for her is because of Deermud's NP making it so that you can't recover.
>gets rekt by Gilgamesh in close combat (what the fuck)
She has the complete upper hand against him until he starts barraging her with NPs. There's a reason why when she shows up in UBW he falls back so that he isn't in range of her.
Again, Heracles, King Arthur and Cu Chulainn are all more or less comparable to one another under optimum conditions.
Also, Lancer still wouldn't be at his peak, even under Bazett. He'd need to be summoned in Ireland for that. If he had been summoned anywhere other than Japan, it wouldn't be so bad, but them's the breaks.
It's anti fortress because of its raw power, it has nothing to do with being bad versus individuals.
Also holy fuck the Lancer dick ducking is strong in this thread, he'd get his shit kicked in by a full power Saber under Rin. And I say that as a proud irishman.
>Then you're going against Nasu.
>A: Diarmuid received more backup from his Master (prana supply), thus in terms of pure firepower, Diarmuid was stronger
He never said anything about how the fight would go.
Why didn't Lancer just have a threesome with Rin and Bazett and win the grailwar?
I doubt Deermud has a defensive skill that would save his ass from the bulge or even against throwing version of it.
Deermud has no chance against Cu even Kirei is Cu's master, unless Kirei wants Cu to lose.
>gets rekt by Deermud
Read that fight again.
>gets rekt by Koujiro
He's the most skilled Servant in the Fifth War. Even Lancer would have an extremely hard time against him in close-quarters combat. Lancer outright states that he'd much rather pick Assassin off from a distance.
>gets rekt by Gilgamesh in close combat (what the fuck)
Swordrain distraction, plus armor that deflects anything other than an Excaliblast-charged slash.
I fail to see how an unequivocal "he's stronger" would point in any other direction.
This is of course disregarding NPs, but if we're regarding NPs, then Saber could excaliblast Diarmuid away too. If she wasn't being concerned about concealing her identity or conserving magical energy.
>you can just claim he wins against everyone because "runes" with no explanation
No I'm saying he can win in close combat against Saber with runes
Look at what rune magic does to Bazett
Now realize Lancer's knowledge of rune magic is sufficient to get him summoned as a Caster class potentially
Gilgamesh is infinitely stronger than Emiya Shirou "in terms of pure firepower"
Emiya Shirou, within the condition of Unlimited Blade Works, will win in a fight between them every time
A fight isn't just "who hits who the hardest"
>Gets turned on by Ilya in a swimsuit in Hollow
He's coming around
>implying Gil can't just use Enkidu to chain him down and then use Ea to destroy the reality marble
>implying Shitrou is strong enough to break Enkidu even when he has no divinity
>implying Gil didn't lose in F/SN due to plot which was admitted by the writers
>but muh arrogance
Rune magic doesn't up her skill. It just lets her hurt Servants. It's just reinforcement. Even Kuzuki can fight Servants with them, but the reason he's able to fight them is due to his technique. The runes just increase damage, that's all.
Saber's able to deflect blows from Berserker to some extent, even under Shirou. Berserker, who is physically superior to Lancer in every way. She can't last long under her conditions, but it's still very impressive.
The important thing is technique and skill.
Gil go back to bed with Enkidu instead of shitposting
>Fate/side material - Encyclopedia: Gilgamesh [Servant], p.059
>As no proper Heroic Spirit can match this man, he could be called the "Servant Killer".
>Without a doubt, he is the strongest existence amongst the Servants.
>Though he lost due to obsession against Saber…
>Though he lost due to pride against Shirou…
>Though he lost due to carelessness against XXXXX…
>…the fact of the matter is that if he actually gets serious, he is a Servant that cannot be rivaled.
>Fate/Zero material - Encyclopedia: Gilgamesh [Servant], p.094
>In the boy-meets-girl story of the original Fate/stay night he was forced to yield to the universal law of "love conquers all", but in Fate/Zero he's free to show off his overwhelming, cheat-like strength without restraint. He could have ended the war in a single night if he truly desired to do so. But then, careless pride is the king's prerogative, and getting serious over something as frivolous as a wish-granter would be unbecoming. So, taking that into account, it sort of balances out the huge disparity in firepower… I guess?
>>>>In the boy-meets-girl story of the original Fate/stay night he was forced to yield to the universal law of "love conquers all"
And that's fine and dandy, but according to Nasu, Saber's his equal.
Well, that's to be expected. This is the ridiculous world where someone like Lancelot, who should only be on the level of an "extraordinarily skilled knight" is able to catch sword bullets out of the air and use them to deflect other sword bullets, or turn street posts into Noble Phantasms, or pilot a jet and use it to fight against a magic thought-speed jet that can fire magic nukes. Or Gawain, who is practically invincible under the sunlight, who, despite already being extraordinarily physically powerful to completely inhuman levels (as legendary heroes in the universe wont to be), receives another 3x boost on top of that. And Lancelot was able to hold off a monster like that for an entire day until the sun set. And Saber was able to keep up with the monster as well. Even if she was disadvantaged, the fact that she didn't die instantly to that kind of ridiculous nuisance is incredible.
Basically, in order to keep everything contextually in line, the Knights of the Round Table all received insane boosts.
No you dingus
All of Shirou's projections are just copies, weaker than the original. He can't even copy everything in the Gate, his projection is limited to close combat arms and the Gate contains literally everything ever created by mankind and then some.
He beats Gil because he's faster.
>Heroes have fatal flaws
>and that's not fair
You're that kid who made up rules on the playground so you'd always win until nobody wanted to play anymore
You're implying plot wasn't in effect in Fate/Zero as well. The very fact that the war lasted for nearly as long as it did was all because of the King of Heroes not giving a fuck. That's just the way he is.
Even in Fate/EXTRA CCC, the only case in which he ever goes all out, he doesn't actually do so until the midway point.