Why were the fate and heaven's feel routes so shitty? Saber and Sakura's problems were so damn annoying to deal with.and it didn't help how Shirou was basically nothing more then a hero for both of them..
>>116560314 It's stupid bullshit things like those that made the route so damn hard to chug through. You can't write a fucked up backstory on character then make her a crazy whore. Who would want to save that?!
>>116558604 Warp Spasm is the bad end, you should have known as much when he told you it would take three command seals to control him whilst under it. Why would you make him activate it without getting the command seals from koto first ?
Broken Geas is the best end He said he'd come back Anon, now i kinda know how Sakura felt during the HF normal end
>>116560694 >>116560886 >>116560929 When a mage finds a possible path to the root, they dont fucking advertise that shit to everyone else. That being said, the ritual does require a few magician contestants to be tricked into participating, so it cant be completely secret.
>>116561065 >>116561168 So you are telling me you would sacrifice your parents, your sister or whatever member of your family you want to think of for the sake of protecting the world. Why do they have to die if they are innocent too? Fuck the world, it's not even so nice to deserve being saved.
>>116561289 It's basically a case of them dying now do to my action or dyning later due to my inaction which is exactly what would of happened had IIya and Shirou farted out the bullshit DEM they did at the end of HF.
>>116561285 Giving your life for a large cause and sacrificing other people's lives for a large cause are completely different things. You have the right to do whatever the fuck with your life but what makes you think you have the right to decide if someone who didn't even want to cause any harm should die or not?
>>116561533 Why? It's not his or her fault that for some fucked up reason that person was forced to cause other people to die. Everyone would expect you to kill yourself for the better good and its fine if you do it, but I don't see why wishing to continue living would be such a horrible thing. Fate fucked you up, but if you are innocent then you have the same right to live as anyone else.
>>116561406 None of your business. >>116561670 >ut I don't see why wishing to continue living would be such a horrible thing. >Fate fucked you up, but if you are innocent then you have the same right to live as anyone else. Not when your very existence causes people to fucking die! I bet you think people with Ebola don't deserve to be quarantined so the rest of us don't get it.
>>116562251 You can always send them to a faraway place or something. They aren't fucking zombies, you know. I doubt they would have any problem with living away from healthy humans until a cure is found or something.
>>116561670 The person is still the direct cause of others' deaths. Demanding to live is the same as accepting others being killed because of yourself. But if you accept that, then you have no basis for complaining about someone taking a similar stance and killing you.
>>116562371 I thought we were talking about choosing to kill other people. My point is that I would gladly kill myself if I am causing other people to die (or so I think, I don't know which kind of stance will I take if it ever happens) but I would never take the right to live from someone else if they are innocent.
>>116562762 She can't, but people are selfish and desire to live even if it means causing other people suffering. It's a horrible thing, yes, but my point was that humans are selfish creatures and even when they might put up a front and say they would die for the sake of others and shit like that (and sometimes do it) very deep down they wish to live. It's something that you can choose to ignore for the sake of greater good, but I believe that such a thing exists.
>>116563352 >I just hate it when people condemn someone for putting one important person for him over the rest of the world. >It's not righteous, but neither is it evil. Actualy that's the texbook definition of evil.
>>116563744 But it's not that you can't negotiate because the other person doesn't want to. The other person doesn't has control over whats happening so of course he/she can't negotiate shit. And personally I don't think you can't compare killing a human with stopping a natural disaster or killing a wild beast.
>>116563803 When he is consciously causing harm to other people and won't stop even when he is perfectly capable of doing so without having to kill himself. Someone who doesn't want to harm people and can't prevent it from happening isn't evil or guilty
The main issue us that they didn't know specifically what it was that was causing it. As we know now, Sakura was a proxy, but not the root cause. Rin had suspicions about the grail having problems, but was hampered by the tension of the situation, along with Shirou. As well as Zouken and Kotomine's double talk and trolling when they both know what the real problem is. Well, so does Ilya, but that is another story
Basically the gang was faced with a really tense situation, and in the end, killing Sakura wouldn't have solved the main issue of the grail system being tainted, so it's a stupid decision. Nor does it give her peace from Zouken, who is likely to either reanimate her body upon death, desecrating her further, or getting away by high tailing toward the other magic lands he owns. So not only would her death be a waste, no justice for the years she suffered will be gotten, while she has to suck up a lifetime of abuse and experimentation.
Then we have to deal with this hullabaloo ten years later because it's doubtful the actual problem, the grail system, will be destroyed because the truth will stay buried.
>>116561809 That's why I hate that shit The player spends two entire routes and 48 hours to understand how Shirou is a superhero who will try to save anyone no matter what and would go to any lengths to achieve that, and out of the blue he throws all of that away just because of some bitch (a very hot bitch, but still) Being given such a huge middle finger is definitely not a nice thing
>>116563937 >And personally I don't think you can't compare killing a human with stopping a natural disaster or killing a wild beast. According to your definition the wild beast is innocent. And at the end of the day it accomplishes the same thing
>>116564154 But they aren't accepting shit. They wish to live because every fucking human wishes to live, even when they know they might hurt other and even when they choose not to do so, but can't live without hurting other people. It's not what that person wishes, it's what that person is forced to do. Why don't you consider the rest of the world evil for considering they deserve to continue living even if it means sacrificing an innocent? What is the difference?
Actually he didn't. Didn't you see how he pretty much did his damndest to save both the city and Sakura? It wasn't like he just stayed at home and waited it out, he went out every night and wracked his admittedly inexperienced brains to find a solution where everyone could be happy. Just the experienced people around him were as helpless as he was to find a solution.
He wouldn't feel that shitty if he only cared about Sakura, so he is the same as the other routes.
>>116564471 I said it many replies ago, but I consider that deep down everyone wishes to live. You can choose to end your own life to protect other people and that's fine, but expecting other people to do the same or even forcing them to do so is wrong.
>>116564729 When I said they don't accept it I meant that it's not like they go "Well, fuck it. I want to live so fuck the rest of the world." It's more like they don't want people to die but they don't want to kill themselves either and they can just despair because there isn't an ideal outcome. That's the kind of people I'm talking about: those who don't want to cause harm but are forced to do so. Someone who is completely fine with being like that and doesn't care about other people suffering can go fuck himself.
Choosing Sakura was fundamentally against Emiya Shirou's ideology. In order to become the Hero of Justice he desired to be, he could not choose one over the masses. All lives must be equal, no one life weighing more than the others. This is one of the pillars which supported him. It's the reason why Archer was betrayed by the man he saved, because the man realized that, should Emiya Shirou ever view that man as a threat to his "justice", he would cut that man down without hesitation.
It doesn't matter if Shirou tried his hardest save everyone. The very moment he put Sakura above everyone else in his mind, his ideal had shattered completely.
In this case, what matters is the ideal and not the action. The ideal was the entire foundation upon and doing anything to undermine it was the equivalent of destroying his very reason for living for the past eight years.
It helped that he actually got pertinent information and a greater perspective on the situation, which was all that was needed, not sacrificing Sakura. The entire quandary came to be because of lack of information, resources, misinformation, and a time crunch.
I mean, are people that stupid to actually believe that Sakura was required to die in order to alleviate the problem that was going on with the Shadow? Surely the readers at this point are smarter than that.
>>116565566 >Let Sakura give in to the shadow and make it her own so that it won't possess her in her sleep, then use the Rule Breaker on her. That's like the worst possible plan anyone could possibly come up with.
If only things didn't go south so fast Sakura would of stayed at Shirou's then Shinji wouldn't of tried to rape her more which wouldn't result in his death, Sakura's sanity going snap and all that other stupid stuff. Honestly Heaven's feel is a sloppy mess I'm hoping the movie does something to make it more coherrent because it felt like two different stories got Polyermizaton'd together.
>>116565791 Not really, no. You're going to ridiculously dangerous lengths out of desire of save one person, at the expense of many. Having Sakura "give in to the shadow and make it her own" isn't guaranteed to go well; it borders on delusion.
>>116566075 People like don't seem to understand that Shirou in Fate and UBW isn't Shirou from HF. He changes, he slowly throws away his ideals. He shifts his priorities from saving everyone to saving select few to sacrificing everyone and everything for just one person who's dear to him. He's not a superhero anymore, he's just a selfish human being that doesn't care about a bunch of unknowns.
There isn't much of a discussion though. One side shows reasonable facts why protecting that person is fine, others miss the point of the situation and either are pro or against saving them without realizing the actual situation. It never was about picking the one you love versus the world, but a shitty situation where you hardly have any clear information and a loaded decision.
Point of fact, Sakura was perfectly saveable and the situation able to stopped without her death needing to occur. What made the situation hard was important things were kept from the heroes that would have made saving Sakura easy.
HF is about informational warfare. If all evidence proves that a person is guilty, if the information showing that this person is a scapegoat is not brought to light, the prevailing populace in the middle will judge that person accordingly. Such is the case with Sakura. Without knowing that destroying the grail system will help her and get rid of the mysterious entity, than the blame and judgement would solely be brought on her. It's a loaded argument.
Um, I don't even think those are real fans of Sakura anyway. I mean, I like Sakura a lot, but I'm not gonna be foolhardy to say she is pure. Some guy made it seem like I was saying she was in another thread when I said the slut talk was lame at this point.
But then again, I post honestly. This irony stuff is tiring. Can't tell who is who or who is baiting or who is serious.
>>116566881 Maybe some of use felt betrayed by two whole routes detailing how Shirou could only be a hero because he was an incredibly fucked up person and then suddenly have 'oh wait never mind he just needed the V' sprung on us.
>>116567070 You know who else is a hero? A fireman. A police officer. A social worker, perhaps. I didn't want a hero, I wanted a superhero. Someone above the masses, whose ideals you could look up to even if you could never reach that peak.
I really really hope Sakura's voice actress puts her all into the movie. I want to hear her despair scream be on par with Saber's back when she was forced to destroy the lesser grail. I kinda hope the new anime will do that Saber staring at IIya while remembering Iri scene. Poor Saber never found out what happened to Iri after she was kidnapped and killed by Kotomine.
Choice comes down to whether or not you want to stay a heroic moralfag or give in to affection and throw away morals and ideals.
Do you want to save countless lives by ending just one? Do those lives carry any meaning to you compared to the only one you care about? It it worth it, and why is it worth it? Where do you draw the line?
I wonder how many people would kill their most beloved relative if that would save lives of two people, or three, or ten, or hundred, or a thousand people. They might be ready to die, but do they really want to?
It's not the lack of information that's the important thing here. It's the mindset.
Emiya Shirou has built his whole life on becoming a superhero. It's his entire reason for being. He CANNOT, under any circumstances, consider one person's life above all others. He MUST consider all lives equally.
In order to stay true to his ideals, Shirou HAD to kill Sakura. He had to be decisive about it. If Emiya Shirou truly had his mind set on becoming a superhero, if he was true to his ideal, then he must not consider Sakura's life to be of more importance over the lives of others. And evidence showed that Sakura's continued existence posed a threat to the world. With the evidence at hand, could Shirou risk the lives of multiple innocents in order to keep Sakura alive? To a Hero of Justice, that would be a no-brainer. Sakura was just one life, compared to the countless lives that would be endangered.
By choosing Sakura, Shirou pretty much tore apart everything he stood for with his own hands. He was like a machine who had just undermined its own reason for existence. For instance, a toaster exists to toast bread. If it refuses to toast bread, then what's left for it after that? It was built for the purpose of toasting bread and it, of its own will, chose not to do that anymore.
She was obviously cracking. When Ilya says. And Alter said she was seeking the Grail, even if it meant her death, so there was some plan in the works going on with her. She even hesitated to finish Rin, and had numerous chances to kill them if she wanted to.
But she was losing human functions fast and losing memories, so I wasn't surprised with rational inconsistencies, since she is sharing her soul with like fifty different things by the end. Nasu even made it easier to see by the red text in her fight with Rin.
No obeying Zouken doesn't make sense, but hell, the girl is lucky she has a functioning mind after all that shit.
>>116567181 You don't look up to HF Shirou? I actually wish I was someone with enough resolution to do whatever it takes to protect those I care about, even if it means destroying myself or having to experience the ultimate shitfest. Fuck, I look up to Shirou in all of its incarnations. He is a true hero for me.
>>116567330 >No obeying Zouken doesn't make sense, but hell, the girl is lucky she has a functioning mind after all that shit.
Do you remember the scene where she was trying to steel herself for death only for the narrative to tell us she would likely forget this feeling in a few moments? Why the hell did they tell us it was all meaningless after wasting our time with it?
>>116567319 Shirou's whole deal was that he was happy if other people were happy too. Being a superhero was his way to do that. In the end he just wanted to be like his idealized version of Kiritsugu and feel the same joy he felt when he saved Shirou. In Fate and UBW, he does this by becoming a superhero and protecting everyone, In HF, he takes another path and realizes that as long as Sakura can smile, he can be granted happiness. Also, I find the idea of something that only has one purpose throwing it aside and finding a new one quite appealing.
>>116567515 Yeah but when did Zouken tells her to kill them? She just accepted her powers and went insane. All her live she thought she's inferior and that everyone looks down on her and how she has enough power to kill them without moving a finger. Zouken told her to get Ilya if I recall but Tohsaka and especially Shirou had no part in it. She couldn't even hurt him.
>>116567461 It's not exactly a bad end, but it is true that he lost pretty much everything in Heaven's Feel. Everything he'd worked towards, everything he'd built himself on, his way of life, his very way of being. He destroyed all of that the moment he chose Sakura over everyone else.
Tell me, could YOU completely deny everything you were up until now? Your entire life, your beliefs, the purpose you'd set yourself towards. Could you decisively destroy all of that without a second thought?
It's the equivalent of killing yourself. Not literally, but figuratively. Emiya Shirou had killed the "Emiya Shirou" that had existed for the past ten years. He decided that Sakura was more important that that.
It's probably painful. It's probably a completely ridiculous choice. Only someone who values others more than he values himself could make a decision like that. It's a purely self-destructive move that's tantamount to psychological suicide.
>>116567694 It is, but that's the crux of it, isn't it? I LIKED Shirou, and then he had to go and kill himself and we get a replacement wearing his skin. I would have greatly enjoyed HF if it were divorced from the rest of Fate/Stay Night, but it wasn't.
>>116567804 Fate has three different story. Just because you like Shirou in one route doesn't mean you should like him in others. You don't see HF fans going "Ugh, I liked Shirou in HF but in UBW he's just not the same, that route doesn't fit the game me thinks"
>>116567804 I consider it one possible answer to the question of his existence. And there's nothing really wrong with that. He's destroyed everything he was up until that point, but nothing states that he create something new afterwards. The first few years of his life after the 5th War will be dedicated to healing his fragmented psyche, but he'll probably gain new things as he continues on through his life.
It's not really that bad. In Fate/EXTRA, Hakuno starts off with essentially nothing, yet in the four months of the Grail War, s/he truly gains many, many things as a person. I don't think Shirou's inferior to Hakuno, so I think he'll be fine.
>>116567931 Kiritsugu also had doubts in himself. Unlike Shirou, cold Kiritsugu has nothing to lose, even though he wished for a peaceful world there is no reason why he should care about other people while trying to achieve his goal. You see that when spends 9 years with a happy family he starts to have conflicts with coldblooded side of himself. The scene where he shows his weakness to Iri really shows it.
Shirou had people he loves and cares about from the start, if can't live like Kiritsugu because that would make him a hypocrite. How can he sacrifice a person that could be someone's Taiga when he himself wouldn't be able to sacrifice her.
>>116567015 The "superhero", or "Hero of Justice" that Kiritsugu was and Shirou aspired to be is someone who works for the "greater good" above all else. From the human perspective, a superhero is not a good person. A superhero is a cold machine. Inhumane actions are required to save many humans.
A hero is someone who has something they protect. In Fate and UBW, the reality of a hero and the ideal of the superhero don't conflict, so the superhero ideal is never challenged and the hero can continue to chase it. Heaven's Feel does not allow for that to happen, because the one being protected is hurting countless others without a protector. In Heaven's Feel, Emiya Shirou is an Anti-Hero whose heroically selfish actions come at the expense of the happiness of many innocent others.
The superhero who serves all that is Good will save countless more people than the hero who saves only who he selfishly cares for. But only the hero is protecting something, and only the hero wishes they could protect everyone.
That is a bit wrong considering when we get a more complex look at his mindset.
He is a contradiction, he follows the morality of an ally of justice, whose only purpose is to slay evil and stop conflict, but he hates it and questions the validity of it all the time, because an ally of justice doesn't think about the proxies of evil, evil is evil, even if it's only somewhat attached to that evil. There is no compromise or distinction between the people who fall through the cracks or the main cause of conflict. He, at his heart, wants to save those who fall through those cracks and suffer in the dark. Hell, that was what he said before using UBW the first time against Gil.
Case in point is where he debates killing Rin if she endangers Taiga when Caster holds her hostage as a counterpoint to people thinking him prioritizing his loved ones started in HF. Same when he considered abandoning the final battle in Fate and running away with Saber.
Shirou does want to help everyone and save everyone, but the crux of the matter is he doesn't acknowledge that an ally of justice's mantra is defeating evil, and saving people is only a byproduct of that. That is what the story is built around.
Normally a hero would just be cruelly killed off at the end of his story. Humans only romanticize death due to how painful it is, not only for the one who's dying, but for those around him as well. We want to believe that there's meaning in death, so we selfishly make up our own to make ourselves feel better. We may find something romantic about Shirou killing Saber or sacrificing his life, but Shirou's the one who has to suffer the grief of his actions (for as long as the memory stays intact while his arm is eroding his brain), and Sakura's the one who lives an empty life waiting for someone who will never come.
>>116568319 That isn't right. Kiritsugu was a 'greater good' type of guy, yes, but Shirou was the hero for EVERYONE. That was the problem, that he lives in a horrible world where you can't save everybody and he refused to sacrifice anyone. Archer already showed what happened when you start thinking of the 'greater good' and 'one man to save a hundred'. In the end, both UBW and HF are ways that Shirou won't become Archer, but he didn't need to betray anything for UBW.
>>116568363 It's not wrong. He acknowledges the contradictions, but it's still true that he's built his entire life around becoming a hero of justice. That's what his hardware (body) was built for and his software (mind) was programmed to do. The contradiction was a logical flaw, but "becoming a superhero" was the primary goal of "Emiya Shirou's" production.
>>116568513 It has the first thing if you don't get enough Illya point. I find it funny to think that in one of the two version of the Normal End Kotomine is just standng there, waiting for his manly fight, when suddenly he gets Excaliblasted.
>>116568606 Actually, most of Archer's issues come from AFTER he dies.
He was satisfied with his life and death, but becoming a janitor who does nothing but kill people constantly for all eternity didn't sit well with him. The Archer in Fate/EXTRA is bitter and cynical, but may as well be sunshine and rainbows compared to the Archer from Fate/stay night.
>>116568441 Correct, but this is a fact. Having Sakura give into evil in hope that she could 'make it her own', like it's just her accepting her 'shadow self'' like in other series, is stupid and deranged. It wasn't that simple in the VN and it would be here, no guarantee it would go well. It puts not only the lives of others in jeopardy but her own.
The fact that you'd suggest it makes you caring for her well being questionable.
I can't agree that it's the best, but I respect your ooinion. I think people really dismiss the pains it took to grasp that happiness and the work it will take to maintain it. Sakura is going headfirst in protecting the town and learning magic too.
And why would people think he us a househusband? He is obviously going to be training, if for no reason because he doesn't want to burden Sakura forever with searching for a better body or his circuit treatment, and Rin says the problem would be solved with training. Besides, old habits die hard.
>>116568798 And there's a Shirou that doesn't care about other lives at that point. It's a Shirou for which one trying to save Sakura no matter what is the only option. It's not black and white. You could look at it as existentialist and say that one life is not worth thousand others. Or you can look at it from the eyes of a selfish person for whom there's nothing that's worth more than that one life they care about. There's no right way to deal with nor there's a wrong way.
Shirou viewed thaumaturgy as a tool for helping people. But since the only thaumaturgy he can use are fundamentally combat-oriented, and he has no intention on becoming a hero anymore, he might just abandon it. He has no real interest on becoming a proper Magus either.
He's honestly lost pretty much all his incentive to continue practicing his craft.
>>116569034 Not even arguing about whether saving Sakura is right or wrong. I'm saying that plan is fucking ludicrous and demented even considering her well being in consideration, and the fact you'd seriously entertain it invokes the question of whether you actually care about her or are fucked in the head.
>>116569429 >Yes, he prioritized Sakura but he would never suggest doing something he knows could put others in danger. What? Are you aware that the birth of Angra Mainyu would have caused everyone to die?
>>116569429 Are you implying he didn't know that letting shadow roam free would hurt other people? Come the fuck on, he threw away his ideal of saving people at that point. They both feel guilt but wouldn't go out of their way to save others.
Not really, he isn't all machine and actually has legitimate curiosity in it beyond just using it to help people. Plus, as I said, he helps himself and Sakura by practicing. People really place him in too limited a space when the game is about him growing as a person.
Besides, who ever says he would stop helping people. Not mercing 24/7, but since Sakura is further stepping into the area of magic, their lives aren't ever really going to be a normal porch sitting couple. She has those Supervisor duties as well.
I see it more as him finding other callings, having new beginnings.
>>116569561 > They both feel guilt but wouldn't go out of their way to save others. He spent every fuckign night after that patrolling the town and trying to prevent the Shadow from killing more people.
>>116567319 >In order to stay true to his ideals, Shirou HAD to kill Sakura No, that's not how it works. He wants to save everyone. Killing Sakura or not killing her, either way his ideal is betrayed. MoS is not Shirou's original ideal.
>>116569624 Ehh, the thing is, being able to make swords and only swords probably isn't gonna be a very useful skill for him in the long run. Even if he's assisting the town supervision, he's probably more akin to a gun that will probably never get any use.
Well, I suppose he could set up a hardware repair shop or something.
>>116569642 Yes, you're right. I find it odd how many people talk about ideals and specifically how they relate to UBW, when UBW Shirou wouldn't have killed Sakura either, albeit for different reasons.
>>116569642 But he can't save everyone, and he was willing to kill Shinji in Fate. Killed Kotomine there too.
He wanted to save everyone, but the hero of justice he was building himself towards was that kind of existence. If he wanted to become a hero of justice, he had to kill Sakura. To not do so would have been to destroy everything he'd been working towards.
>>116569611 If you care about Sakura, why would have become her give in to her evil side? Why would you have her be tainted with all the evils in the world? Why would you risk everything, including her becoming a potential murderer? You think this is good for her, not to mention others?
Actually letting her die would be kinder to her. At least you know she died innocent.
>>116569781 Killing villains is obviously different, it's something he's willing to do if it's necessary and he doesn't seem to lose much sleep over it. Sacrificing innocents for the "greater good" is an altogether different matter. Yes, the fact of the matter is he CAN'T save everyone. That is what he discovers. Which means in this situation, his ideal is impossible. Again, MoS is not what he originally wanted.
>>116569825 Are you fucking stupid? >Why would you? To live happily ever after, how hard is that to understand? Killing is killing, guilt can be dealt with. Sakura doesn't want to die, Shirou doesn't want to kill her.
>>116569971 >Yes, the fact of the matter is he CAN'T save everyone. That is what he discovers. Which means in this situation, his ideal is impossible It is something he realises and aknowledges in UBW as well.
>>116569946 No, she just wanted to relive herself of guilt, become a martyr as if that would save her and forgive her. If you read carefully you can catch that it's just her type of personality. Instead of fixing things she wants to accept punishment. She only saw death as easy way to escape guilt and responsibility. Death by the hands of other people so that they can take out their hatred on her.
>>116570331 You stupid motherfucker it THE ONLY plan. It's the only way to save her. Guess what? Some plans are not fucking full proof stratagems that lead to success and it doesn't make them retarded. Your argument is nonexistent, it's like saying "Well if you have bad times you can always kill yourself, future doesn't look bright".
Emiya Shirou was a machine. A machine built and programmed for the sole purpose of becoming a hero of justice. A hero of justice cannot discriminate. It cannot consider one life above others, and all must be equal. If cutting down one life can save two, then it must cut down that one life. That is the "hero of justice" that Shirou was set up to become. It's not necessary something he wanted, but it was something that he HAD to become, because that's what he'd been built towards for the past ten years of his life.
It's as it was stated in Unlimited Blade Works: Archer was the culmination of Emiya Shirou's ideals. He admits that. Archer states it outright. He killed many and he saved many more. The narrative does not mince words; that is the Hero of Justice that Emiya Shirou had sought.
But when he chose Matou Sakura over the faceless many, he had decided that she was more important than the others. It was a critical blow to his ideals. If Shirou had stayed true to his path on becoming a hero, it should not have been an issue. Sakura is one life, and her existence threatened multiple lives. If all lives are equal, then the lives of the many would naturally outweigh the life of one. His goal of becoming a hero stated that he had to kill Sakura to safeguard the lives of the faceless masses.
But he chose Sakura. He consciously decided that Sakura was more important. Even if her continued existence endangered the lives of countless innocents, Shirou decided that it was more important to him to protect Sakura than it was to safeguard those lives. It was a critical blow to his identity. If Emiya Shirou was a machine who was built and programmed to become a hero of justice, then it was the equivalent of a machine denying its own reason for existence.
>>116570555 It doesn't matter if he can't save everyone. It doesn't matter if his ideal is unreasonable or impossible. What matters is that, the moment he decided to save Matou Sakura, Emiya Shirou consciously destroyed his reason for existence up that point. He could no longer become a Hero of Justice. He could no longer pursue that path. If Emiya Shirou was defined by his need to become a Hero of Justice, then that was the equivalent of destroying his identity up to that point.
>>116570495 Your plan wouldn't even get off the ground from the start. What the fuck does 'give in to all the evils in the world' even mean to you? Having her just 'make it her own'? Are you under the assumption that it's really that simple, even in the VN? It wasn't, that's why they stumbled on the solution.
This plan isn't worth wiping your ass with and sadly makes killing her look merciful.
>>116570555 >it was something that he HAD to become, because that's what he'd been built towards for the past ten years of his life Bullshit, he can choose what kind of hero he wants to be. He didn't WANT to become Archer, even if Archer said it was inevitable. It's well established that Archer is a moron. Who says that he has to consider all lives as equal? Why is that an inviolable rule?
>>116570958 Because if he doesn't consider all lives equal then he wouldn't be able to save as many people. Shirou decided that Sakura's life is worth much more than the other and nobody calls him a hero for that decision.
>>116570962 Except the first few 'steps' weren't part of their plan because it already happened. How would you get her to 'give in to all the evils in the world' and 'make it her own' if you're planning this?
Why the hell do you think the choice existed? It was either "Become a Hero of Justice" or "Protect Sakura". There is no middle ground. In Shirou's mind, those were the only two choices. If he chose one, he would inevitably be denying the other.
What matters isn't what YOU think a Hero of Justice should be. What matters is what a Hero of Justice is to EMIYA SHIROU. That's the only thing that matters here, and the fact that there was a choice, the fact that he could ONLY choose one or the other in the Heaven's Feel route proves that your arguments carry no weight here.
>didn't have god hand who said? Shirou projected 8 slashes of A rank STR and a stab. Saber took 2 lives. so he died 11 times. Weaker, rotten and blind, yeah. but God hand is the god damn body, not only the skin
>>116571300 Shinji served as accidental catalyst and because of him whole reaction went out of control. Same results would've been possible if she accepted that she and shadow are one and the same in a way that didn't involve killing.
>>116571108 Yes, it's obvious that in saving Sakura he is rejecting the notion of a hero he had before that, but my point is that accepting the need to kill one to save many, he is also breaking the ideals he originally had. MoS isn't just Shirou continuing about his life the with the same outlook he always had, he's turned his mind to steel and abandoned his idealistic concept of "saving everyone". It is also a critical blow to his ideal. There's a reason it's a bad end.
>>116571466 >accepting the need to kill one to save many, he is also breaking the ideals he originally had It isn't if you understand what an ideal is. It isn't something that can be archieved but something he can aim for. That's practicaly the conclusion of UBW, he knows it's impossible but he can still try because it's beautiful.
>>116571702 Clearly actually having to act on it - especially when the person killed is someone he loves - is quite different from just knowing it. The ideal is, specifically, saving everyone. If he has to kill someone, he's breaking the ideal. Period.
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