>threatening with rape in such a situation
Wat. Its like he grew to like raping.
I really liked it as an additional thing to read after the VN, but it leaves out too much to be enough standalone. Just in my opinion as a rampant tsukihimefag
Tsukihime manga was the first thing Type-Moon I ever read. I thought it was great, and it was what got me to read Tsukihime and Fate after hearing so much about them.
Although, I did play a bit of Unlimited Codes on an arcade machine a few months before that.
Of course Anon, you don't want to be deemed a secondary
when ufortable adapts Tsukihime.
If you think about it Shiki is actually being pretty nice in this scene. Normally someone would threaten to kill the person in their way, but Shiki being the nice gentleman that he is decides to rape her and let her live.
No, because they would come by the end of it.
That's not rape; that's making love.
Jesus the "where do I start" people is the worst
just grab the corner that attracts you most and go from there. you'll link the fucking dots on your own, its part of the fun holy shit
Ciel's immortality is "restoration" by Gaia to a previous state regardless of the condition, so she supposedly comes back from anything as long as Roa's soul is alive.
Shiki's eyes however let him see and bring death, so in the case of Ciel the result would be removing the body of Roa from the soul of Roa, and Gaia no longer has a contradiction to correct.
>Ciel's immortality is "restoration" by Gaia to a previous state regardless of the condition,
So, ignoring for a second how utterly impossible it would be for him to actually accomplish this, if Shiki somehow managed to dotstab Hercules once, it would be enough?
I never really thought of Ciel's immortality in that fashion before.
There's a reason that Arc calls him a monster when she learns about his eyes.
I would actually say no. Despite appearances, God Hand is a stock of revival magic, not regeneration. It brings him back from death, not reversing time.
So I'd say he'd just contain twelve dots on his body.
Wouldn't there be also a dot for Herakles' being?
Like with Nero Chaos
You're telling me that this isn't cannon? Bullshit.
Of course it isn't
No, it's a 'curse of immortality'.
No, his reward was immortality. I'd assume living forever is part of that.
He has a contained death inside him, but he still has to die twelve times to stay dead. One death will simply be rectified by the curse.
Really, it would be more like he'd have one dot, and if Shiki stabs him, that dot vanishes, he dies, revives, and a new dot appears.
No. God Hand itself would have a dot, though, but killing a divine mystery would explode Shiki's head for sure.
I just finished up reading the Tsukihime VN, and I thought Ciel was just okay didn't exactly like or dislike her. I'd say for me it'd be like Akiha=Arc > Hisui > Ciel > Kohaku
>No. God Hand itself would have a dot, though, but killing a divine mystery would explode Shiki's head for sure.
And cutting up a true Ancestor didn't?
Killing a small part of Gaia's RM didn't?
True ancestors without any backup from a planet-soul are just very powerful fairies.
And he killed the equivalent of a fingernail when it comes to Gaia, and that was stressing him to the absolute limit (it's kind of implied that he only survived due to partial vampirism). Even so that's not a mystery so much as a force of great magnitude.
>No, his reward was immortality. I'd assume living forever is part of that.
He's very obviously not immortal if he can die by being killed a measly 12 times. He has the concept of death in him when he's in a Servant container at the very least.
She's physically attractive, fun to talk to, central to several scenes that I found emotionally relatable, I found her character conflicts most interesting when it came to the three "main" (read: non-maid) heroines of Tsukihime, she was generally very supportive (especially in the Akiha route), etc.
She's great. I don't get the disdain for her at all.
It's only that one body he has and Tohno is perceiving the death of that body. Regardless of how Heracles would resurrect from damage that would kill him, Shiki would strike his body's "death" and he wouldn't be able to respond.
Herakles doesn't resurrect himself. The curse of God Hand drags him back from death.
The body doesn't get put back together, but made anew. See when Rin blows his goddamn head off and he has a new head three seconds later.
I'm normally of the mind that Shiki fans vastly overstate what he'd actually be able to do in practice, but I think it's unreasonable to believe that his eyes couldn't take twelve lives simultaneously.
You only need a Noble Phantasm of sufficient brute force to hack through a ton of his lives in one go. A power that is specifically built to kill absolutely is going to render him permanently dead pretty fast, self-resurrection or not.
I don't think Shiki has the physical strength to actually get up in Heracles' face and pull it off, but I do think if he managed it that he'd be done pretty fast same as with nearly anything else.
No, mere damage does not trigger God Hand. Death does.
When fighting Gilgamesh, he takes catastrophic amounts of damage, but Shirou can still count eight deaths.
To take twelve lives simultaneously would need killing God Hand itself. The curse is what brings him back, not Herakles's own will.
His power is death and God Hand defies death 11 times.
And something as petty as Caliburn can hack through seven in one go. The Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are much, much more lethal than Caliburn, man. This is an incredibly unreasonable argument.
Your argument isn't even true in the context of Fate/Stay Night itself. A sufficiently ridiculous attack will carve off a LOT of Heracles' lives simultaneously.
There is no reason to believe that an ability of MEoDP's power wouldn't cut past the bullshit and actualize his final death.
Absolutely. I adore all of Tsukihime's heroines, even Akiha
as a sister, not a woman.
That's more like killing him multiple times in a row because the devastation wrought kills him again.
Mystic Eyes of Death Perception doesn't deal damage in that way, unless he cuts Berserker to pieces or something. I'm working off a dot stab, which is enacting one death.
What? Damage is exactly what is required. Heracles isn't affected by low class abilities regardless of the ability to kill, it's all about the output. That's why he is coated in his gray skin.
Now that I think about it:
"Here I come, great, wild world. Do you have enough evil in stock?"
Damage causes death, yes, but Mystic Eyes of Death Perception cause death without actually dealing damage. That's the key.
Enough damage will multikill Herakles. But MEoDP isn't dealing damage! It is enforcing the death contained within.
But Herakles jumps back from death. Extreme damage then kills him again because the new body dies too, but there's no aspect of the MEoDP that would do that.
>And something as petty as Caliburn can hack through seven in one go
How does that even work again? All I can remember was they slashed Berserker and killed him 7 times, no further explaination as to why Berserker died 7 times in one strike.
It's simply that a strong enough attack can kill him multiple times in one strike, and Caliburn was really strong thanks to plot magic.
Roa doesn't resurrect from death, rather his soul has never been killed and he joins with other bodies as his own.
Heracles jumps back from death when he's been damaged to the point of dying. Tohno kills the body, possibly even the current vessel of the class Berserker. Tohno reaches straight past his life and realizes his death to the reality.
It's not even his soul. It's the "information of his soul". One someone is taken over by Roa, their soul is basically rewritten to resemble Roa's. It's not perfect, but what's important is "knowledge" and "memory".
>Heracles jumps back from death when he's been damaged to the point of dying
There is no reason to assume it wouldn't work on any other methods of death, such as instant-kill effects.
It's implied that at full power Excalibur would be able to wreak havoc on Heracles as well. At any rate, Caliburn's power isn't really explained.
It just happens to be a ridiculously powerful sword that Shirou manages to project and use with Saber.
The only real explanation is, in fact, Plot Power, pretty much like every knight from the Grail Cycle in Type Moon works.
>Enough damage will multikill Herakles
Is Caliburn's damage greater than Caladbolg nuke? I don't think so.
But I guess Caliburn is actually a multistrike NP like Excalibur, so each strike killed Basacar once.
Well shit, I forgot one of Rin's jewel also blew up Basacar's head once.
Well, he deflected (or at least mitigated) Caladbolg in the VN. I think holy swords are supposed to be on a whole other level though, even if the ranking doesn't really reflect it.
Not entirely, since in the end Ciel still has the information she gained while no longer being attached to Roa.
We aren't getting anywhere. Point is, Tohno's eyes let him bring about the death of the body or even the death of the vessel. Depending on what he strikes he can potentially kill Berserker in one strike.
It's more like videogame logic. Berserker has 12 lives, or 12 HP if you prefer, and after taking an attack that kills/damages him, Berserker becomes immune to it. But since the attack was so strong he lost 7 lives/HP at once.
So basically he's almost invincible against weak phantasms or other attacks that ask to be spammed (especially if they're below rank A) but he dies quickly against a couple of extremely powerful attacks.
>She plunders concepts
>She plunders God Hand
>her skin turns leaden and shit
He can kill concepts, after all. If he kills the "concept" of Berserker, then that's the end of it.
Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are rooted directly to the Spiral of Origin, so even Herakles' Curse of Restoration probably wouldn't be enough.
The stronger concept overrides the weaker concept, and there are very few concepts superior to "death".
It's not restoration, but revival. It doesn't heal Herakles, it deposits a new full health Herakles on top of the old one.
Killing the existence of Herakles should have the exact same meaning as killing him. He does die, but he comes right back. God Hand already overrides 'death', it's a mystery specifically designed to.
Killing the curse itself would prevent this, of course.
God Hand is not just "puts Herakles back together 11 times", but "REVIVES Herakles 11 times".
They're both connected to the Spiral.
Just because Ryougi's rank is higher doesn't mean they're not from the same source. Fundamentally, the two are the same thing, one is just at a more advanced level.
Kouma is a half-demon. Not sure what the fuck that person is talking about.
Killing the existence of Berserker itself would eliminate him permanently.
The "Curse of Restoration" is usually a trait possessed by vampires. Not healing or regeneration, but rather the reversal of time to the point prior to the injury being inflicted. Herakles' God Hand resembles that ability.
Killing the "concept of Berserker" would destroy Berserker completely. It's not that his "life is extinguished", but rather "his existence has been erased". The meaning of his existence itself would be eliminated.
Uh, yes? Why wouldn't it? Servants are summoned by exploiting the fact that such beings are stored to be used to begin with. They're not "illegitimate" mysteries, and do carry the full force of their legend behind them.
>Killing the existence of Herakles should have the exact same meaning as killing him
If you are rooted as deep as void itself, you can just erase the origin of Herakles. Not just his demigod heroic spirit version, not just the spiritual copy in HGQ. Even the true god Herakles would die if it came to that.
God Hand only resembles it superficially. It does not turn back time. When Herakles's head got scattered by Rin, his head did not get put back together, but a new head was created.
Eliminating his existence should still hold no special meaning to God Hand, which revives him in that circumstance. Again: God Hand does the reviving, not Herakles. And God Hand revives him from a death the world has recognized, too.
The Throne of Heroes is in the root, it cannot be removed. At any rate, that option is only available to 3rd personality "Ryougi Shiki", and nobody really cares what she can do.
Uh, no. Not even " " Ryougi would have that ability.
Her power is limited solely to what she registers as "alive". Something located in the Root itself would be beyond her abilities. You're overselling her.
She's not even the most powerful character all of Nasu's works. She's still below ORT, Arcueid, Gilgamesh and White-Face Gold-Fur.
I like Arc a lot, but I think her route and romance are my least favourite.
The route itself was lacking in any great conflict compared to the other routes. Just BUT SHE'S A VAMPIRE all over the place and a cute scene where she eats a burger.
As for the romance, well... I guess I'm not a fan of "love at first sight" premises, which her storyline reeks of. She literally says that she thinks she loved Shiki before she met him (ie. during the interim between his murdering her and her guardrail appearance). Pretty weak. Shiki's side of things is a bit better, but Shiki's also kind of a shit in general so it's hard to let that have much weight.
Once again, there would be nothing to revive.
It's like Ciel's regeneration. She could not die because the world itself did not allow it. That should be on an even higher order than Berserker's God Hand. Yet if Shiki kills her, then she's dead.
Mystic Eyes of Death Perception > Gaian Paradox Fixer > God Hand
God Hand is merely the power of a Heroic Spirit. It's still below Gaia.
There's a few differences.
The concept of Berserker would be Berserker's class as a servant. This is through the Greater Grail, and would be impossible to alter.
Berserker's vessel is just that, a vessel to deposit the information of the servant to be Berserker, namely Heracles in the 5th war. To destroy that vessel wouldn't be a problem for the Grail or for Shiki. We don't really know if that has a "death" to it.
Berserker's body is expected to be destroyed at some point, so it would blatantly have a death to be exploited.
The world is not a higher order than God Hand.
Even when Herakles' death is recognized by the world, God Hand brings him back 11 times. It is a DIVINE MYSTERY, and divine mysteries supersede the world.
Hell, fucking Gae Bolg supersedes the world and rewrites time and space! The enforcement of the world means nothing to the mysteries of heroes.
To say nothing of Ea which destroys the world.
Mysteries bypass the rules of the world. They cannot be counteracted, this is what "mystery" is all about in Type-Moon. They're not understood so nothing can be done.
The world can create its own mysteries to suit its purposes.
Or are you saying Gaia is perfectly fine with Gae Bolg, a power next to an Authority, that shifts existence to make an event occur even if that event is physically impossible? Gaia hates impossible things. Gae Bolg should not usable, then.
Except it is, because Mysteries go around Gaia.
The only thing Gaia hates are paradoxes.
Gaia's fine with Gae Bolg as long as the paradoxes are resolved. That's why Gae Bolg works the way it does. There's no reason for cause and effect be reversed otherwise; you'd only need the "effect". The moment Gae Bolg's name is invoked, the target's heart has already been pierced. So then why is it necessary for the spear to physically pierce the heart? It's because Gaia's fixing the paradox of the heart being pierced despite the spear not moving to pierce it. The spear is being made to pierce the heart in order to resolve that paradox.
It's the same as with Ciel's regeneration. The reason she can't die is because Roa is still alive. To the world, Roa = Ciel. If Roa is alive, then Ciel should also be alive. Ciel being dead while Roa being alive is considered a paradox, and that's why Ciel can't die.
But the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception overrides that order. Not even Gaia can do anything about it. It doesn't matter how much Gaia hates paradoxes in that scenario; if Shiki kills something, it stays dead. End of discussion.
Not really related but can Archah trace Gay Bulge? Because I think I saw it in UBW before but it might be my memory playing tricks on me. It's been some years so some details are a bit fuzzy.
>>Gaia's fine with Gae Bolg as long as the paradoxes are resolved. That's why Gae Bolg works the way it does. There's no reason for cause and effect be reversed otherwise; you'd only need the "effect". The moment Gae Bolg's name is invoked, the target's heart has already been pierced. So then why is it necessary for the spear to physically pierce the heart? It's because Gaia's fixing the paradox of the heart being pierced despite the spear not moving to pierce it. The spear is being made to pierce the heart in order to resolve that paradox.
What happens if Gae Bolg is invoked and then someone steals his Spear and runs away with it?
The only reason MEoDP kills anything is because of Gaia. It only opens up the death contained in an object, it doesn't actually 'kill' something (cause death). It is not that the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception override anything, but cause death in such a way that Gaia recognizes it as an absolute fact.
The problem with this is that Gaia recognizing Herakles's death is all well and good and God Hand gets right back up from that anyway.
The equivalency with Ciel is that stabbing her tells the world Roa is dead in a way the world accepts. Gaia accepting Herakles's death doesn't affect anything, however.
It kills because death is within an object the moment it is created. But Herakles gets back up from death.
Again, the immortality of Ciel and vampires is completely unrelated. They do not get back up from death. They undo death by reversing the event. MEoDP cannot be undone, death is enforced absolutely.
God Hand, however, accepts death and then moves beyond it, eleven times! It only activates on death! Death is required for God Hand to revive!
Seems like this is the better TM thread on board atm.
I haven't read Notes, but from the sypnosis there are Types from other planets come to the dead Earth to finish off the remnants of humanity right?
But how could one side even "interact" with the other when each operates under completely different concepts?
That doesn't matter if the target's very existence is erased.
Take the Nrvnqsr example. In order to kill Nrvnqsr, Shiki would have had to kill him 666 times. He would have had to kill each "self" individually. But he bypassed that by killed the very "concept" of Nrvnqsr itself.
If Shiki killed Berserker's existence directly, God Hand wouldn't be able to do anything. Imagine if you will, that Berserker is a bottle of water. The water represents a single stock of Berserker's lives. When he's killed, the water is emptied, and there is a tank of water next to it that can refill it up to eleven times. However, rather than removing the water, what Shiki would do is take away the bottle itself. Moreover, it's as if the bottle was never there in the first place. The water in the tank would have nowhere to go. In fact, the person refilling the bottle would even forget that there was ever a bottle in the first place.
That's what would happen. That's what it means to "kill something's very existence". It's as if they were never there at all.
That's because Nrvqnsr Chaos is one existence who is 666 existences. Again: this is not an equivalence! Herakles is one existence who comes back eleven times if his existence is negated!
To contrast your analogy, Herakles is a bottle, but the bottle is under a curse that if anything happens to cause the bottle to empty, up to and including if the bottle vanishes, a new completely full bottle appears where the bottle last was!
God Hand does not care if his existence is gone, because it doesn't undo death but swallows death eleven times.
You don't seem to understand the idea of "revival". It's not healing, regeneration, undoing death, or anything like that.
It's going past death. The death occurred and revival does nothing to fix that. What revival does is cause one to be alive after dying.
You're grossly misunderstanding how Herakle's God Hand works, how divine mysteries work, how Gaia works, how the Root works and how the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception works.
But I've grown tired of this. I'm not so bored that I'll waste my time talking to a wall. Believe what you want, it's of no consequence to me. I've lost interest.
I'd like to understand how the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, whose only effect is death, can get around revival. Which is getting around death.
Reversing time, being anchored to the world through paradox, reincarnation, and having 666 lives are not equivalent. None of those accept death and move beyond it. All of them dodge death. MEoDP cannot be dodged.
But revival does not dodge death, but suffer death in its entirety, then live again.
>completely separate existences
They're not separate, they'll all fucking Hercules
If he has extra lives, then it clearly didn't "enact the absolute end of existence" because the existence known as the Servant Hercules still continues to exist
Therefore if MEoDP does in fact "enact the absolute end of existence", those extra lives must be annihilated too
Regardless of whether he can kill Herc or not, Shiki can cut him to pieces along his cut lines as many times as he wants can't he?
Whereas Saber with her NP Excalibur can't even pierce his flesh with all her might. (Recent anime episode ignored that is...)
I had to go grab something official because I'm tired of this too.
It doesn't get any clearer. Mystic Eyes of Death Perception don't physically kill something, they cause its existence to be stopped.
They're separate because they're independent. I'll admit I phrased that wrong; it's more like there are 11 more ends to go.
Herakles has 12 absolute ends to his existence, and they only occur one after the other. His existence does not continue to exist, nor is it remade, but a new one is inserted after the old one moves on. This is how God Hand works.
It is not extra lives, but revival! There are not 12 loaded Herakleses in one body, but 1 Herakles and 11 revive spells stored inside a curse.
Fine. One last one, but only to explain the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception. I don't think I'll ever be able to get through to you on the matter concerning God Hand, so forgive me if I ignore that issue henceforth.
The Mystic Eyes of Death Perception is ABSOLUTE death. It's the one thing that nothing in this world or any other can ever escape, the single absolute constant of all that exists. Think of it as the absolute expiration date of all things decided from its very conception by the Spiral of Origin itself.
The Lines of Death are akin to the "absolute lifespan" of something. In a way, it's like future-sight. When something is killed by being stabbed in its Point of Death, it is immediately brought to the absolute conclusion of its life. It cannot be bypassed because this was something that was decided from the very beginning, not by the world, but by Akasha. The Point of Death is, in essence, the hard limit of an object's existence. No matter how long it exists, even if it goes throughout its entire existence without receiving a single scratch or illness or anything that could even remotely endanger its life, even if the length of its existence is expanded for as long as it could possibly go, it cannot exist beyond that line.
God Hand is, in essence, a curse. But not even the greatest of divine mysteries cannot override something that was decided on in the Root itself. If the Root decides you're dead, you're dead. When a user of the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception stabs you in the Point of Death, they're basically fast-forwarding you immediately to your absolute end-all be-all expiration date decided by Akasha, the absolute beginning and end of everything, itself.
The way a nerd like me understands it is like this.
Suppose the universe is a virtual machine, and Gaia is a running process.
Let Berserker be an object in address 0x87CF341D of Gaia's address space, with at least one state alive?=dead|alive.
Gaia, no, let the VM itself grants Berserker a "curse" that will bring himself back to life whenever he is dead, up to 12 times. This curse has a reference to Berserker's existence, which is the object at 0x87CF341D of Gaia's address space. That means whenever Berserker is killed (Berserker->alive? = dead), his state is changed to Berserker->alive? = alive, up to 12 times of course.
Shiki who has MEoDP, which in turn can access the VM's lowest level operations, removes the object at 0x87CF341D of Gaia's address space. The curse now lost its reference because, you know, the object Berserker no longer exists and the VM is not aware of its existence. Not anymore.
It's not death, but complete erasure.
>God Hand is, in essence, a curse. But not even the greatest of divine mysteries cannot override something that was decided on in the Root itself
This is where we find conflict, then. I say God Hand does do that, because "revival" is moving past ANY death, including the one naturally contained in Herakles. Revival continues path death. Herakles expires, then Herakles is revived. Not "Herakles heals" or "death is undone".
Pretty much. God Hand is an ability that, given the chance to revive, resists attacks that previously killed them. But Shiki can attack the body's point of eventual death, so the method itself doesn't matter.
And Excalibur can at full power kill most of his lives.
>a new one is inserted after the old one moves on
It's the same fucking guy. It's not a "new" Hercules, it's the same person coming back to life.
>Herakles comes back after his existence is stopped
That makes no sense by the very definition of the phrase "his existence is stopped". If he can come back, his existence was never really stopped. You're conflating "death" and "total cessation of existence". The former isn't necessarily absolute, the latter is by definition.
>this many people wanting to fuck Akiha
I mean, I know you're not Shiki and she's not even Shiki's biological sister, but I found the entire romantic aspect of her route skeevy as fuck.
Between Akiha only calling him "nii-san" and Shiki saying things like "Don't you want to have sex your brother?" I was uncomfortable as hell.
Were it only possible for me to live as freely as you lot.
That happens because catastrophic damage continues on through the body and kills him again.
Herakles dies from damage to spiritual core -> Herakles revives -> spiritual core still catastrophically damaged -> Herakles dies.
He gains a new life each time. That is 'revival'. He is not healed, but gains a new life.
Even if his existence is ceased, there is no reason God Hand would not revive him if the curse still exists. He doesn't truly come back, but is made again by the power of the curse.
No, that's dumb. Things killed by it leave corpses. They do not evaporate.
Well, I was speaking in a purely sexual context. No matter how badly she wanted my cock, I don't think I could give it to her. My brain wouldn't allow it.
>Even if his existence is ceased, there is no reason God Hand would not revive him if the curse still exists
If his existence has ceased, so has the curse, because the curse is part of him.
I liked Ciel the most of all Tsukihime characters in the VN.
I played the game back when it came out in 2000 (moon rune reader here) and I was very surprised when I first came on the Internet and learned she was unpopular among the fanbase.
Then again I didn't like the direction taken by later Type-Moon games at all; Tsukihime remains their best visual novel in my opinion and I think each successive one has been worse, so maybe I just don't share much in terms of tastes with the modern fan base.
I played the VN for the first time literally a week ago and I don't get the dislike either.