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What's the point of mecha having pilots...
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Thread replies: 123
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What's the point of mecha having pilots at all? Why not just just operate them remotely like drones?
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To remove Norma without just outright killing them.
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Latency
Prone to hacking
Teen spirit can't be transmitted remotely
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I feel like theres a Gundam than talks about this specifically.
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It's not as cool.
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Your body is a mecha
Your brain is the pilot
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>>115204325
that would be Wing.
And yes, Treize laments on governments just throwing money at each other by "dehumanzing" war
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>>115204325
Almost every Gundam mentions it. I believe it had something to do with relying on human interaction.
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Humans are more reliable than AI. They can pilot a mecha that is more human like than an AI can, because they know how the human body moves and reacts.

Sure an AI would have better reactions, but assuming it was controlled similar to how a drone was, there would be a slight latency delay, their programming could easily fail, you could attack the wrong target, technology can be hacked, etc.

The original Gundams Mechas were nothing more than fancy walking tanks (like they are in MGS). They even mention that carpet bombing them was highly effective way of dealing with them, but now it's become about Mechas being the ultimate war machine.
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AI is shit.
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>>115204686
Yes, you're Excellency!
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Why the fuck would she expose herself and fire that small gun when her machine has a huge one?
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With people like OP, the world ends up allowing worthless actions by worthless people.
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What is the point of jet motorcycle mode having an open cockpit. Wouldn't be better closed and without wind always being a factor,closed also lowers the chances of falling off
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>>115204819
>>115204909
It's cool
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>>115204909

Yeah the aerodynamics of this thing must be fucked.
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>>115204819
That one is easy. Attack from weapon touched directly by norma = destroy mana barrier.
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>>115204362

That's just dualism, which leads to an infinite regress (some philosophers say).
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>>115204612

I didn't say AI. I said operated remotely. When they send drones into Afghanistan they're not piloted by AI, but by some Air Force pilot strapped into an arcade machine somewhere in New Mexico or Nevada.
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Why even use mecha at all for any reason ever? It would take way less energy to add rockets to a tank to add mobility as opposed to legs.
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>>115204909
is this your first mecha show?
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>>115205075
Security risk always exist
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Mecha function is dependant on feelings.

Mecha are the opposite of the Western "no emotion needed" depiction of robots.
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>>115205178
Fairly certain this was also addressed in Gundam Wing. Can't recall the reasoning but I think it was something like having a human-like vehicle and a human-like target makes soldiers more "battle hungry".
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>>115205286
Wasn't it some sort of chivalry silliness?
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>>115205075
Minovsky particles or something like them is the usual excuse
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Jet Alone >>>>>>>>>>>>> EVA
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>>115205178
Then you end up with a shitty Guntank
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>>115204270
Someone is getting mad at true master-race
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What's even the point of having a machine look human. Why not just use tanks and planes.
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>>115205505
To terrorize extraterrestrial invaders with human physiology?
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>>115205505
>What's even the point of having a machine look human
Empathy.
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>>115205505
Beam sabers
Or in the case of Majestic Prince, chainsaw swords.
Seeing two tanks trade fire would be boring as fuck.
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>>115205505
>planes
maybe
>tanks
why even bother with tanks when you could have a more agile robot. This just concerns land though.
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>>115205388

Shitty, but actually practical.
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>>115204233
troop morale,
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>>115204325
MINKOWSKI PARTICLES
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>>115204233
Mobile Dolls, you say?
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>>115205668

Again, rockets will make it way more mobile and energy efficient than legs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BigDog

This is the only mecha like thing I've ever scene that makes sense. I think they also have fire rescue and hazard zone rescue robots that are controlled remotely, but I don't think those are really mecha.

The only time mecha make sense is when there's magic involved, like EVA (and yes, its basically magic).
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>>115204686
But Treize, the Mobile Dolls do have a pilot.
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>>115205075
Even still they need to manually operated due to particles, and the general issues with hacking and stuff come into play.

Also there was a remote control system in Zeta with the Psycommu's. Where Newtypes could mentally control Gundams.

Like I said, they're basically just fancy walking tanks. Some are fancy flying tanks. Some are facing space tanks.
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>>115205668
Planes are an actual thing in the original Gundams, as were tanks.
>>115205953
Mecha exist in Gundam because they have the energy provided due to Minovsky particles to sustain a walking tank. A reason for a tank with legs is solely so it can traverse more variety of terrain as opposed to just strapping on more weaponry. A tank with legs could go into far different places than a normal tank could get into. Even then they still had tanks in the original Gundams that were able to damage Gundams to an extent, and planes that could absolutely destroy Gundams.

As for mechs in real life, Japan has that big ass mech that looks like a silver loading docker from Alien. The reason we don't have mechs is solely because we haven't figured out how to make them actually move like humans or to sustain so much weight when traveling. If we had the energy and the intelligence for it, you'd have metal gears and zetas running around all over the place.
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Dorothy is the best MS drone pilot because her eyebrows double as antennas for better reception.
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>>115205075
Latency.
Do you think our drones are controlled like some guy sitting somewhere like a videogame? It takes forever until the command arrives if the thing it's on the other side of the world. They give it a command and then the AI does it's thing and has the chance to press a no button shortly before the thing shoots its missile.
It works against buildings but as soon as you have to fight a thing as fast as you it's impossible.

Also it's cool.
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>>115206161

>the reason we don't have mechs is solely because we haven't figured out how to make them actually move like humans or to sustain so much weight when traveling

There's literally NO REASON to even bother with this. You can get better and more mobility with rockets using less energy than you ever could with human appendages. Most of the "mecha" the Japs have built are for use in emergency rescue or firefighting, not fighting in wars. Making them for that would be like trying to develop a spaceship with a sail that picked up solar waves or some other bullshit to move instead of rockets but cost 10x as much to build as conventional spaceships and only lasted a 1/10 of the time before becoming useless - simply because it looked cool to have a spaceship with a sail.
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>>115206564

The delay is two seconds. And that's with our current level of technology. I have a much easier time suspending my disbelief that they improve latency than that they could ever make a mecha practical in the first place.
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>Why would you want to have fun? Why wouldn't you want something that's not as fun as this other thing?
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>>115206688
But solar sails>rocket simply because the fuel won't run out as long as tge sun exists.
And you can't fly through narrow spaces with them. Also rockets aren't efficient at all. A lot of energy goes to waste for the heat.
Animals have limbs for movement because it's the most efficient way to move through all kinds of terrain.
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>>115206883
Ok it's been mentioned 3 times in this thread so far by other anons and apparently you guys still don't get it.

No remote pilot because
M
I
N
O
V
S
K
Y PARTICLES
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>>115207084
Not all mechs are Gundams though.

The reason is much much simpler. Storytelling.
It's more personal with the character inside the battle. And the mechas are humanshape because they're supposed to be seen as characters too, not simple war marchines.
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>>115207149
> r in machines
Fuck you too, phone.
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>>115207149
Minovsky particles don't just hinder Gundams. They pretty much put a blanket over all the technology. That's why the mechs have swords and shit.
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>>115207438
We acknowledge /m/'s plot device particle, but we also acknowledge the fact that it exists and functions the way it does for the reason >>115207149 stated.
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>>115204233
it depends on the show.
for Cross Ange, they probably need Norma pilots to channel their mana cancelling ability to pierce DRAGON shields. can't do that if it's remotely piloted.
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>>115205286
>a human-like target
>target
You are supporting the enemy?
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>>115205643
Never watched Girl&Panzer, I take it?
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>>115206161
>The reason we don't have mechs is
That they don't make sense, from a tactical perspective. They are larger targets, barely maneuverable because they need to balance their huge weight on little leg-sticks, have inferior armor in general and seriously exposed weaknesses in particular and are generally a waste of resources.
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>>115207016
And yet elephants lose to tanks in 1:1 confrontations.
Why is that?
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>>115208317
Elephants don't have canons or heavy armor?
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>>115208606
So evolution isn't perfect, apparently.
Legs are not perfect just because evolution developed them.
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Some major reasons that soldiers will always be on the battlefield (and subsequently pilots of anything will always be needed) jamming technologies can make remote operation impossible, as well as allow the enemy to hack them. Also, remote operations have a greater time lag (although often not noticed) that can make the difference between victory and defeat than direct operations. For a situation like rescuing people from a burning building in a situation, where there is no conflict mind you, it is perfect to have remote operated machines since no one is likely to jam them. Also, jamming and anti jamming technology is constantly evolving, so even if there is a period where jam technology is all blocked something new comes out shortly after. Basically, having someone there makes sure that the machine keeps working and by preventing a remote operation it prevents hacking and turning it against you, which is why they would likely also keep the communications system separated from the operations system, and not even on the same hard network, with no wireless network for the operations system. I could go on and on, but there are many many reasons.
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>>115208667
Wait, wait. Not the same guy, but
>evolution isn't perfect
>legs are not perfect
Is meant to imply that evolution could have done better in that regard? Do you think that various bipedal and quadrupedal animals might be better off with treads as opposed to legs?

If so, that's taking your argument about military hardware to a rather bizarre extreme.
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>>115209020
Animals have a completely different set of requirements.

A machine designed for war must take into account durability (because they'll be under fire), maintenance (because there will be lots of damage) and other things.
Legs suck at durability and maintenance. They also suck at carrying dozens to hundreds of tons of a vehicle at fast speeds. They might be able to slowly accelerate to such speeds on flat and very hard terrain, but you can't expect any of the quick maneuvers you see in anime. They'd very simply be crushed by the weight.
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>>115209020
Look how much better a human with a bicycle is.
Evolution can't into wheels.
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>>115204481
>>115204325
Um no you fucking retards

What he >>115205886 said, the particles block out almost all forms of communication
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>>115209020
off topic that guy may get an action figure this year
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>>115209225
Because wheels are useless in rough terrain.
Wheels are only useful to us because we have roads.
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>>115208317
Elephants aren't made for fighting tanks but living in african sahara and not being eaten by lions.
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>>115210760
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nieLAD6YS3w
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>>115210818
*savanna
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>>115210760
That's why we Mars Rovers use wheels, to use all those Martian roads.
Wheeled offroad vehicles are completely unheard of.
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>>115210818
And that's why they have legs.
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>>115210760
And mechs will somehow not have their mobility impaired in rough terrain, making them easy target?
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I'm guessing if both sides just piloted drone suits then someone would eventually target drone control centers to wipe out large swathes of enemies, create jamming devices that lead to instant victories, or engage heavily in cyber warfare.
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>>115210853
Good luck driving through this with an offroad jeep.
We're just shit at making legged vehicles because the balancing and running and shit is too hard to program. That's why big dog is such a huge deal.
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>>115210949
>Good luck driving through this with an offroad jeep.
Good luck moving through it with a mecha.
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>>115210949
The problem with the jeep would be that it's too large. A dirt bike will work fine.
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>>115210949
If you are looking for real maneuverability, get yourself some helicopters.
Those are actually agile, and can move across pretty much any terrain. They also serve a real purpose on the battlefield, beyond serving as big and expensive targets.
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>>115211009
Biking through that is still harder than simply walking.
>>115210993
How is it not much easier?
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>>115211049
Laser Betas
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>>115204686
>an army of poloted Leos outfucking skill the brand new Virgo II MDs
Thank you Treize
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>>115211073
>How is it not much easier?
Unless you build your mecha on the complexity level of a human leg, it will get suck and never get through.
If you build your mecha on that level of complexity, it will be fucking useless in combat. It will also break down constantly and need lots of maintenance.
The beauty of the tank tracks is that they are so simple and yet so useful.
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>>115211073
The advantage you have while walking is being able to use your hands. That has nothing to do with legs.
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because robots killing each other isn't dramatic
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>>115204686
>>115204888
My niggas.
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>>115205317
Minovsky particles is the excuse for Mobile Suits in the first place, without it the idea of them is ridiculous.
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>>115211150
But you can also jump over obstacles, step on slanted or otherwise not flat surfaces and turn direction immediately.
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>>115211229
Only because your entire body is full with joints upon joints.
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>>115211196
Minowksy particles didn't really give MS any advantage over non-humanoid weaponry.
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>>115211229
>turn direction
That's easier with wheels than with legs. Driving backwards in particular is trivial compared to walking backwards.
A lot of things also depend on the suspension. Your car can jump if the suspension is just good enough.
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>>115211229
Now try doing the same in full plate mail with heavy weaponry strapped to your back.
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>>115211265
It stops them being targeted by long range weaponry.

It makes line of sight firing and close combat necessary thus giving them more advantages
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>>115211322
Is this with or without magic particles that make all that heavy equipment about as cumbersome as a cotton tank top?
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>>115211392
We are discussing the realistic difference between tanks and bipedal robots, so without.
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>>115211392
Well, we are talking Minovsky, not GN. Minovsky doesn't do that.
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>>115211318
>That's easier with wheels than with legs.
You need to stop and turn if you're in a car or tank or do a big curve.
With legs you can simply put the next foot in the other direction.
And walking backwards is just as trivial. We're just afraid to trip because we can't see behind us. And there is no need to walk backwards in the first place when you can just turn around immediately.
>Your car can jump if the suspension is just good enough.
Now that's just silly
I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore.
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>>115211460
>I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore.
Somebody claimed legs were inherently better than wheels.
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>>115211425
You don't wear the metal plates yourself either when you drive a tank.
What's the point of this question?
You put all the weaponry and armor somewhere where it doesn't impede movement.
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>>115211378
Balls, Saberfish and the like did a good job at that. A MS can't aim any better or cover a wider arc.
Legs in space were pretty much just for show.
You can use melee weapons and attacks without a humanoid shape.
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>>115211503
>You don't wear the metal plates yourself either when you drive a tank.
Did you know that a different word for tank is armor? When driving a tank you are literally inside your armor.
When piloting a mech, the mech would realistically also be cumbered by its armor.
>You put all the weaponry and armor somewhere where it doesn't impede movement.
You leave it behind?
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>>115211460
>Your car can jump if the suspension is just good enough.
>Now that's just silly

So is the idea of a mech being able to jump. We're considering this being heavily amoured to withstand the same damage a tank can and still operate, a ridiculous proposition in the first place as the amount of moving parts to make the legs work would make it heavily susceptible to damage, any attempt at jumping with crush it's legs under it's own weight. Any attempt to make it lighter would just make it more damageable.

Also tanks can do 360 turns
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>>115204233
Is that some Strike Freedom?
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>>115211460
It's like you've never walked in your entire life.
Are you a wheelie jealous of walkers?
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>>115211540
You put the fat armor on places that don't need to move as much, like chest and back that are also the most likely place to get shot. And on places that do have joints you mold the armor to fit the range of the joint.

Knights in plate armor from the middle ages were pretty agile as well, despite the armor, because it was made to fit their movement.
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>>115211610
Aren't you the unathlethic fatty who can't walk backwards without falling over or do a sharp turn without losing much momentum?
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>>115211639
>Knights in plate armor from the middle ages were pretty agile as well, despite the armor, because it was made to fit their movement.
So you feel confident about running and leaping around in that picture in full plate mail?
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>>115211666
My legs aren't made to walk backwards. The knees only bend in one direction.
I guess a machine could be made without that limitation but nature is too retarded to give me that advantage.
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>>115211674
Yeah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMuNXWFPewg
All it really does is make you heavier so you have to get used and train for that and harder to see around you if you have a full visor helmet.
It doesn't really hurt movement range that much.
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>>115211744
But your hips can bend backwards.
And you could simply turn around in a split of a second. Or walk sideways.
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>>115211753
Standing up is not the same as jumping around on uneven terrain.
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>>115211578
And they can drift through corners if you play Eurobeat loud enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMHfXmhvZJM
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>>115211795
You can see he's standing up quite naturally without being bothered much by the armor though.
He doesn't look like he couldnt jump in that.
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>>115211862
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz7naZ08Jd4
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>>115211778
Now think about why you can do that and why it's difficult to apply to a scaled up mechanism.
And then think about what sort of stuff you could do with wheels or tracks if you just added enough complexity.
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>>115211862
You can try for yourself.
Take a backpack, fill it with some 30 to 50kg of weight and then go jump around on mossy trees.
Let's see how you fare.
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>>115211902
That's merely a problem of physical training. And the weight of armor is quite evenly divided on your whole body so it's not the same as just wearing a backpack.
Also
>plate armor
>30-50kg
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>>115211901
>if you just added enough complexity.
You mean like, joints for turning and balance and such?
That basically makes it wheeled legs?
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>>115212072
>>plate armor
>>30-50kg
Plate armor was introduced only to give one example of what humans might strap to themselves. We have already established that large bipedal robots would have a lot of trouble with their weight.

>That's merely a problem of physical training.
You are likely to slip, and when you are headed downwards, the unusual weight is effectively multiplied and puts a lot of stress on your joints and muscles when you try to break your fall.
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>>115212165
That doesn't have anything to do with legs vs wheels though, just giant human robots not working in our world because square cube is a bitch.
Legged vehicles don't have to be giant human robots.
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>>115211639
>You put the fat armor on places that don't need to move as much, like chest and back that are also the most likely place to get shot. And on places that do have joints you mold the armor to fit the range of the joint.
A mecha wouldn't need to be concerned with blocking its links too much, since it wouldn't even have most of them.
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The problem with the mechs in anime is that they are so large. Mechs will never replace tanks or planes.

What mechs should be are more human sized, and their role should be to basically replace infantry. They should complement tanks and planes, not replace them.

The mech in district 9 is a good example of something that would actually be good in a war, especially urban street to street combat.

High mobility, smaller target, MASSIVE firepower for such a small mech.
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>>115212259
>That doesn't have anything to do with legs vs wheels though, just giant human robots not working in our world because square cube is a bitch.
I wasn't arguing in the favor of wheels in general.

>Legged vehicles don't have to be giant human robots.
If you want to compare wheels vs legs, I guess you'd need biological wheels or advanced robotic legs.
The current advantage of legs is that they are part of a highly complex system of joints and other stuff. >>115212138
You wouldn't necessarily go that far, but it'd certainly be wheels that are not as fixated in their positions as you are used to, and they'd probably be able to shift their form too, going from circular to elliptic, and maybe even changing their size.
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>>115211674

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg
Thread replies: 123
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