The biggest problem I have with the TypeMoon universe is that Nasu decided he'd make the FSN VN based on the Fifth HGW.
Word of God says the first two wars were jokes that ended really quickly and wouldn't be entertaining. I can accept that. I'd be happy with just mentions of that.
But where Nasu fucked up was deciding that the Fifth war would have multiple, all equally canon routes, utterly gimping the prospect of sequels beyond expansions of each route, adding more routes, or utter continuity clusterfucks like H/A.
By making the Fifth HGW the VN with multiple routes, he limited how the universe can be used. From that point, only the preceding wars can be given singular canon narratives, although constrained by what is said in the Fifth HGW about them (this is not a bad thing, in the case of Fate/Zero it worked really well. But only because Urobutcher is good at writing when you give him clear plot points to include and adhere to).
So if you like the universe, too fucking bad, the only decent work that can be produced in it without retcon is adaptations of the Fourth and Third HGW. Fate/Zero was excellent, leagues better than FSN, because Nasu didn't fucking write it and it had a single narrative.
If FSN had been something like, the 15th war, with the first war happening much earlier, this wouldn't be as big a problem. But Nasu utterly lacks the ability to plan for the long term.
I wouldn't even be this upset if other works could at least adhere to the same universe. I like that Tsukihime takes place in the same universe, but again he gimped the future use of any characters by using multiple routes.
But then you've got shit like KnK, which is excellently written in comparison, but no, it has to occur in a parallel universe that follows the same rules.
The TypeMoon universe had excellent potential in terms of lore, depth, and complexity. Nasu and Takeuchi could've been modern day Tolkiens. But they fucked it all up.
They fucked it all up with their lack of consistency, continuity, and actual utilization of their universe.
It is truly the most depressing scenario in literature when you come across geniuses in terms of universe creation who can't actually fucking write or utilize their universe to its full extent.
Yes I'm mad.
Even if they do a story for the Third HGW (which I'm doubtful they will), I'm certain Nasu will fuck it up with his hubris. The universe has become his baby, he'll want to write the whole thing and it'll be a piece of shit.
The best works in the TypeMoon universe were written by people who didn't create said universe.
Try being an artist. Ever wonder why so many do commission work, nude modelling and tons of other things? because they need to.
Nasu made an eroge, and it sold like hot shit and it just so happened to have a very compelling universe, so now he can do whatever the fuck he wants without having to go full eroge.
>Tsukihime in the beginning only had one maid
>Takeuchi wanted to draw porn of both of them together so he forced Nasu to add a second one
Porn was the reason why we got some of the best routes so I don't see the problem.
Are you content with eating terrible food your entire life because it isn't literal shit?
But on the points of potential and expandability, that's my point. It hasn't been used. And that's depressing.
But then he went and made Fate H/A and it was even worse.
Still have to use the scientific method, but I'll readily agree it's not as rigorous as other fields, and is easily the least scientific field in psychology. So it's barely a science. But I enjoy it anyway.
>Are you content with eating terrible food your entire life because it isn't literal shit?
Again that retarded argument. I don't know what to say anon, watch what you want, hate what you want. I won't force you.
Why can't a work stand on it's own without spawning sequels indefinitely?
Oh, and I honestly consider the monogatari series to be the most well written and constructed piece of contemporary Japanese light novella.
In the realm of weeb-shit, at least.
Yes, I am this much of a faggot.
F/SN was their first commerial work, of course they didn't know it was going to become as big as it did.
FIVE Wars without a single winner are already absurd, if justifiable. If there had been fifteen, how would you justify the fact that none of them had had a winner up until that point?
Nasu has already said that he doesn't plan to write anything new for Fate after CCC. He has also expressed his hope that his universe will become something like "Japanese Marvel" where many writers collaborate on stories for it. Hence Strange Fake, Grand Order, Apocrypha, Zero etc.
No, I don't know why Tsukihime, KnK and Fate are in different universes either, but I assume there's a point.
Stop being buttfrustrated and read some of the side material. Your Type/New is showing.
It did nothing right.
The pool scene and Backside of Kibisis nearly gave me a fucking aneurysm.
The latter was hot though. But it was an angry fap.
It can, and that's often best sometimes. It depends how much the author initially plans to write. In this case, Nasu entirely lacked long-term planning.
Yes but it still hurt me
Yeah I agree but that's because Nisio doesn't have enough time to suck. His schedule is too full with the fuck ton of works he's doing.
I don't have faith he's going to be able to last much longer without rehashing himself
But you should never fucking throw in awful sex scenes and make it have multiple routes just to sell.
People shouldn't treat this shit like a business.
I wouldn't say there had been no winners to that point, rather, the Einzbern fucked it up a few wars ago with summoning Avenger. The wars preceding that though, in some cases you could have the grail materialise and resurrect someone etc. Reverse some time thing. Actual TM magic stuff, but not like, "make me a God".
Just have the whole concept go to shit at a later point. The third war only went bad because the container was destroyed. The Einzbern fucked the goose with Avenger after that.
I've read most of the side material though. More on the Fate side of things though.
I really do hope it becomes like that. Apocrypha is turning out really well. Except for Shiromine being a thing.
Now I honestly feel filthy.
I don't know, you can notice the pattern of philosophy or common prevailing themes in his work, but I don't know about rehashing just yet. I finished Zokuo yesterday, and while I don't it was entirely necessary, it was OK. Should've cleanly tied everything up in a more satisfying way though. Not looking forward to Tsugi. He needs to stop while it's good.
I don't think its rehashing yet but I think he's going to get there quickly if he keeps multi-tasking so hard.
I think at this point he's just making too much money or his editor has had a word with him. 19 novels is a bit much. Not to mention his short stories and shit for the newspaper.
Still, loved the shit out of Katanagatari and I think the Occult Club members from Monogatari are probably the 4 best characters in nearly anything ever
Do you really want MORE grail wars?
There's more that can be done outside of endless sequels/prequels
>Mage's association sealers
>Bajiquan Kung Fu masters
>Demons and exorcists
There's a lot more to explore then the same old masters and servants.
>But you should never fucking throw in awful sex scenes and make it have multiple routes just to sell.
It probably wasn't the only reason he did it. Nasu and Takuchi probably just loved eroge, and wanted to make eroge. Getting more sales for porn was just a bonus.
Also, last I heard, Nasu was planning on keeping the sex scenes in the Tsukihime remake even though they're not going to increase sales, and might even decrease them. Not really business behavior if you ask me.
The sex scenes in F/SN seemed way too thought out to be "thrown in for sales" like some people suggest.
If you want to talk half-assed, that's what the Realta Nua version of the H-scenes is.
Wasn't me, but I agree with him I guess.
Yeah, I can totally agree with you there. The quality of his work is amazing for the volume he produces though.
Mmmm, maybe. The main monogatari story is over though, and that was his biggest cash cow. I think he's got at least some artistic integrity. Like, Zokuo was really experimental and odd in parts.
"Parallel universe" novels are a bit of an annoyance for me, but it fit for monogatari because of the introspective nature of the series. Would've been better if it wrapped up the remaining questions about Tooe and the Rainy Devil though.
Katanagatari was excellent. It's interesting to see how it's received poorly by people unfamiliar with Nisio's stuff though. Like, complaints about odd art styles or the ending (the ending in particular).
His stuff would probably actually be pretty good for contemporary Japanese literature analysis classes. Like what you'd have to do in high school about prevailing themes in ______ book by whatever modern author your teacher liked at the time.
Just guessing Tooe got the Rainy Devil from Izuko as like a gift or something for Kanbaru? I just assumed either Kaiki or Izuko gave it to her.
Man, If you like Nisio's works then Katanagatari is literally as good as it gets. Its just 50 minutes of talking, puns and fighting.
Though it is regrettable that the heroes are portrayed in such a negative light in that series
Yeah I know, I'd love a fucking Sealing Designation side story. It could be done so well, with good/bad being entirely ambiguous and relative to the situation/crest.
Burial Agency/Dead Apostles probably wouldn't have as much potential there, but maybe. It'd be hard to swing that area of TM from the cartoon-villain area it's currently in.
Actually, I'm happy with that. The sex scenes are actually permissible in Tsukihime. They don't feel tacked on for sales.
Although I don't like the mana dolphins we're gonna get, I guess it's better than the awkward UBW sex scene.
I'll be able to die a happy man if they just do the dolphin mana transfer again, but have it fade to black midway. Scene returns to roadworks occurring nearby, fixing a "gas explosion". Camera pans to focus on jackhammers. Scene returns to exhausted Tohsaka or something.
>yfw there's a Sealing Designation Sidestory which follows Alba as he sets Kerry's island on fire
>yfw the episode which follows Touko just ends with the person getting torn apart by Beowulf and Touko never even finds out
Really? The biggest problem I have with the typemoon universe is that I'm supposed to believe rhinos can use magic.
My Japanese isn't perfect, but it's at a level where I can read Nisio so it's by no means bad, but I still had trouble understanding the intricacies of this.
I've done Q/A threads on here for monogatari and this is one of the less common questions.
Basically, Tooe developed the Rainy Devil exactly like Araragi developed
Ougi Oshino. It was an existence brought about by her subconscious tendency to have huge expectancies of people and things. It began to remove things she desired, but did not meet her expectations or were imperfect. She realised she made it, and dealt with it before it "removed" those close to her.
What I'm unsure about is how and why she sealed it as a corpse, and why she handed the parts out to people.
I think it was to set everything up for Kanbaru's development, as she knew she wasn't going to be there to teach her and watch her grow.
She has better foresight than Izuko.
Nah, I liked that about Katanagatari. I enjoy right/wrong being ambiguous, along with truth in this case. It was such a punch in the dick when Hitei started following Shichika around, but I really drove home the theme of the story.
>The mages share a plane with the mercenaries on the way over
>Natalia aggressively flirting with everyone because half-succubus
I really enjoyed the Alba reference in Zero though, even if it's not at all canon.
For a while I thought that the puppet master from the Third HGW could've been Alba's father, but I think that master turned out to be French or something?
Any Touko would be good. I'd love to actually see Aoko's magic used in more creative ways as well.
Damn it. I should have stopped talking to you to avoid spoilers but I got dragged in. Damn it.
Also Everyone knows being a Gaen gives you mad foresight. Kanbaru is just the black sheep of the family...
Also it totally wasn't amiguous. Hitei and Emonzaemon were totally the heroes of the story. Hitei and Shichika is how the series should have been to make the Shikizaki/Kazune parallel.
Togame and Emonzaemon would have been a better fit. Togame would had no issues with getting the weapons and she'd have no issue killing him off
Anything with Touko or Aoko is pretty much god-tier in my opinion. I don't really think Aoko can be creative with her powers. Fifth possibly but Starmine and Starbow is just pure destruction. If you want cool shit you'd pick Touko since she's the kind of fighter who has to work for her victories
Yeah, that's honestly the best reveal in the whole story. It makes total sense when it's explained, so I won't spoil anymore about Araragi.
I went back and fucking read every novel again before Owari because of it.
Actually, I'm not sure Kanbaru is the black sheep in that regard. I've got a tonne of papers to mark at the moment, so I haven't been able to go back over the novels carefully, but I seem to remember points where Kanbaru would say something benign, but it'd catch Hanekawa off-guard and make her pause and go "....Hang on, there's no way Kanbaru could possibly know that".
Can't find it for the life of me.
I don't think there were any heroes. No one did anything heroic except Shichika, but he was just a sword.
No way, that's why it was perfect that it ended with them.
Yeah but the story was about deception and the denial of expectation. Those might've been more suitable pairings, but it wouldn't have been as good.
So I haven't read/watched/played any of this shit but surely he could just say "this route is the canon one" if he ever wished to make Holy Grail War 6: Electric Crusdaealoo? is there any spinoff or sequel work currently dependent on all the routes being equally canon?
See, I thought that about Kanbaru too but even she admits she's not that smart but Tsubasa Tiger's only Kanbaru cameo plus discussions with Araragi had me thinking otherwise.
Off the top of your head who do you think are the parallels to the 4 occult club members? There's a scene at the end of Bakemonogatari where Senjou, Hanekawa, Kanbaru and Araragi so I figured those 4 would be the closest and as such, the parallels
Also pff, damn that Nisio with his denial of my expectations
More creative in like, ways that her sheer fucking output or efficiency is a more contrived hindrance. It'd be challenging to do it in creative ways, which is why it'd be interesting to read.
Think Aoko being sent up against Berserker of Black or something. Scenarios like that, where the solution for Aoko isn't simply "more fucking magic".
That's literally all Aoko can do. Kick ass physically and fire spells while kicking ass. There's not really anything she can do except maybe drop a building on someone by smashing some pillars or punching someone in the teeth and then using her magic on them
He'd incur the wrath of too many waifu-fags if he did that. Honestly I think Urobutcher could write a good conglomeration of the 3 routes. No single route explores each character in acceptable depth. This UBW adaptation is going to leave secondaries frodoing hard.
The sequel, Hollow/Ataraxia, actually assumes none of the routes are canon. Go figure.
She can be dumb but still have access to huge amounts of useless knowledge. She just isn't aware of it because she's an airhead, maybe?
As for the parallels, that's a tough one. I'll think about it for a few minutes.
>Fate/Zero was excellent, leagues better than FSN, because Nasu didn't fucking write it and it had a single narrative.
Pretty sure Nasu had a big part in the Fate/Zero LN, also Urobutcher fags go home.
It's all she can do because it's all she knows. Her solutions would still have to be simple, but contrived.
Extreme efficiency has other simple applications in the universe.
Like, let's take a scenario where Aoko gets into a Holy Grail War. Her servant would have awful fucking parameters, as despite her efficiency, raw prana is still required as the anchor for the spirit. From that point on though, they'd have nigh limitless energy, because of the simple magical path.
Granted, she'd probably be more powerful than her servant.
You need weird scenarios like that where her other traits gimp her.
He sort of has a point here if you consider that Urobutcher didn't actually make the story, he just filled in the details. Uro's stories are terrible, and he likes getting carried away with his own nonsense, but he's often pretty good at the smaller elements of story writing and is good at using characters.
Nasu on the other hand can come up with some interesting ideas but fuck up the delivery in horrible ways. Just look at the first H-scene in Fate, or all the cooking in HF.
F/Z worked well because they played off each other's strengths.
You are not looking at the big picture here. FSN was meant to be a one-shot that took place in the same year it was released. He didn't go out of his way to put emphasis on previous wars because they did not fit the narrative of what the typical otaku expects of a visual novel. Fate/Zero only exists at all because everything was perfectly aligned by that point to allow it, but they used a different medium to express it since it was the wrong fit for a VN. Same as the other previous wars, I would imagine.
>The Clock Tower divided the city based on faculty and department. The architecture varied depending on the district.
>The Magic Association divided mysticism into 12 domains. In other words, this city reflected the specialties of each faculty.
>The Twelve Faculties were ruled by the Twelve Lords.
>The twelve domains of mysticism included the critical General Fundamentals (encompassing basic knowledge, leyline studies, and mana studies), which was designated as I, as well as Individual Fundamentals (II), Necromancy (III), Geology (IV), Zoology (V), Anthropology (VI), Botany (VII), Astronomy (VIII), Creation (IX), Curse (X), Archaeology (XI), and Modern Magecraft Theories (XII). These were the directions which dictated the ways of the magi.
>Although Policies was the 13th item and was open to those who wish to pursue politics, it was a social science rather than a discipline in the pursue to mysticism. As a result, it was not included in the Twelve Faculties.
>The majority of the magi studied General Fundamentals for about 5 years (which included common magical knowledge, sympathetic magecraft, contagious magecraft, leyline studies, and mana studies), and then enter the Faculty that was associated with the lineage. Magi might also enroll in other Faculties as associates to help further his studies in his own Faculty.
I just want CT college hijinks.
The mage association itself is splitted into three branches that call each other heretics.
>Sea of Astray
Only that the Sea of Astray and the Clocktower teamed up to lock Atlas in the basement
Secondaries pls go
Mere association to Kaiki probably isn't beneficial in the long term.
If I have to draw parallels:
Karen/Tsukihi is who I'd pick for Kagenui/Yotsugi. Unrepentant warriors against that which is wrong. They're even depicted in similar ways in the books/anime. How Karen/Kagenui beat the shit out of Araragi, how Tsukihi/Yotsugi thing with trying to makes phrases (Platinum mad/Posed expression). There's other little things like that as well.
As obvious as it is, Araragi is Oshino. Meme was training Araragi to take care of the town once he left, so he has some similar traits. In the end, they're both totally honest with themselves, but have readily apparent character flaws. Araragi is showing that he's slowly learning that in some cases, it's better for people to confront their own demons, which is what Meme was always getting at.
My other idea of who parallels Oshino would be a spoiler, so I won't go there.
Hanekawa corresponds to Izuko, but they're parallels. Hanekawa acknowledges that which she isn't aware of, and because of that, knows more than Izuko. That was Tooe's conclusion. They also have entirely opposing personalities.
Kaiki can be contrasted with Kanbaru in almost every capacity. Appearance, personality, motivations, etc.
Kaiki embraces his lack of pride. Kanbaru embraces her degeneracy. Both behaviors are reigned in when they're serious about helping someone though, but begin relapsing on reaching the solution. Both are incredibly jealous people.
There's certainly a lot of contrasting and comparable elements between characters, but definite parallels I'm not quite sure are a thing.
>But where Nasu fucked up was deciding that the Fifth war would have multiple, all equally canon routes, utterly gimping the prospect of sequels beyond expansions of each route, adding more routes, or utter continuity clusterfucks like H/A.
Heaven's Feel is more equally canon because it was observed by Zelretch.
See, I dunno. I disagree. I think the parallels go like this
Yozuru/Araragi for the fact they're both a pair unit who's main way of dealing with oddities is just overwhelming force. Admittedly Araragi is personality-wise definitely more like Oshino but I figure that Yozuru is what Araragi would be if he was in it for the self-satisfaction.
Senjougahara and Kaiki. They're both sharp-witted people who love Kanbaru, They both tell half-truths and keep information from people when it benefits them. They also have a pretty mutual understanding of each-other and Gaen/Hanekawa had a way to keep them in check which was eventually invalidated.
Gaen/Hanekawa. Literally no possible other parallel.
Kanbaru is where I'd put my Oshino. Kanbaru has too much pride to be a Kaiki, she's proud to be a Lesbian, A lolicon, a basketball player. She's also got too much of a nice personality with a hidden dark side to be Kaiki. That fits more in line with Oshino who is cheerful and trolling on the outside and has a hidden darkness on the inside.
Also given Kanbaru has been through Hanamonogatari, she's now actually capable of handling oddity-related business in a Oshino-like manner, which Araragi can't do since he's a vampire and seals and shit would hurt him.
Also if your spoilered choice for Oshino, Sodachi per chance?
Wouldn't it be great?
An adaptation of the Third war could be written like that, as we're only certain of a few masters so far:
-A French(?) magi who used puppets featuring conventional weapons of the time, such as Tommy guns, disguising midget Assassin as one of his puppets
-The Edefelt sisters both summoning the same Saber servant, but with different alignments
-An Einzbern family member who summoned Avenger (Berserker)
-Head of the Tohsaka family (Most likely Tokiomi's father)
-A Matou candidate who jobbed hard
I think an LN similar to Zero would be great for that war. Everyone went full Kiritsugu in the end, carpet bombing the place and laying mines and shit.
Nah man. You misunderstand. I mean like proper full-on
Aoko, Touko, Ciel kind of thing. The third war would be nice but seen the kinds of servants the other mages from the other works would get would be amazing
Exactly what I was trying to say.
I know, and that's depressing because he had such a good concept that could've been used to far better effect by a better writer.
That's pretty flimsy. Zelretch probably spends his days off just looking through alternate worlds like flipping channels on a TV. He still exists in Fate and UBW.
>That's pretty flimsy.
Take it up with Nasu, not me.
>Q: Are the three routes of "Fate/stay night" parallel worlds existing at the same time? I was curious since I was how it would look to Zelretch.
>A: They're parallel... sort of. But if Zelretch was observing, it'd become true, and my feelings on the matter is that I'd rather two routes disappear if one was true. If all of these became possible at the same time, the other routes would become meaningless.
Araragi dealt with oddities by having people come to terms with themselves, usually. The exceptions are Shinobu and Hanekawa, but both ultimately gained introspection. Like Oshino, he used force when necessary.
That's a good comparison for Kaiki/Hitagi. But Kaiki specifically lied half the time and told the truth the other half. Senjougahara would be either ambiguous or utterly blunt. If Hitagi knew Kaiki's true motivations, she'd probably love him instead of Araragi.
I don't think Kanbaru will stay involved with oddities, honestly. Maybe just whatever comes across her. But she was only capable of dealing with them personally.
Nah, it wasn't. Sodachi is weird. She's a full genki girl in Zokuo and tries to fuck Araragi. Like everyone else in the book though, I guess.
The likes of Aoko, Touko and Ciel being the average master in a HGW.
Honestly I'm just getting mental images of WWE Tag Team Championship.
That's perfect. That's exactly it.
Yeah, I'd like a fucking Occult Division Nazi to be in there somewhere. Bonus points if they inadvertently summon a Hebrew servant like Samson, Moses, David etc.
my meat expands
For Christ's sake, Nasu. I wonder what Takeuchi has to say about that though.
You responded to me twice. So I'll answer both.
I'm 50/50 on Araragi, he'd need to be both Yozuru for his methods and Oshino for his approach.
Also Hitagi totally felt positive emotion towards that man in the past.
Yeah, I still think she's the personality parallel though even if she's not the oddity hunter Oshino is. Though admittedly no-one is that cool.
Is Sodachi a boy/was a boy at any point? I've seen the cover and I swear Sodachi having a Peacock on there is a gender thing.
Aoko and Touko team-up with Aoko assuming they're working together and Touko planning to off Aoko. Their entire team-style gels perfectly because Touko is basically Kiritsugu in her style and Aoko the best distraction Touko could ask for
What bothers me is how people can call games like this with sex scenes hentai games or stupid shit like that. It has a couple of sex scenes, so the fuck what? game of thrones has sex scenes but nobody calls that a porno.
It's because they're so obviously shoe-horned in. It's like, 5 minutes ago we were running for our lives from a 10ft fucking Greek demigod tossing around a slab of stone as a weapon.
Time for an awkward threesome.
Prisma is an official Type Moon product. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't count.
If you wanna keep using that Zelretch quote, you gotta recognize that the Z-Man's observing the loliverse most.
>Prisma is an official Type Moon product. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't count.
Yes and? There's nothing that says "If Zelretch is in this product, then it's more canon". There's no Type Moon bible where this is the first commandment. It's just Nasu's personal feelings in the matter. And Nasu chose to include Zelretch in Heaven's Feel and ONLY in Heaven's Feel. And no point did I say that Fate and UBW weren't canon.
And if you're really gonna push it, I'm fine with accepting Prisma as canon. It's better than Fate and UBW anyway.
>Word of God says the first two wars were jokes that ended really quickly and wouldn't be entertaining. I can accept that. I'd be happy with just mentions of that.
That was just the first, the second was a massacre without control. We don't know how much it lasted, only that it was so fucked that they added the whole Church mediation after that.
>It's better than Fate and UBW anyway
Cute. I just want you to recognize that if you keep spamming this quote, you gotta understand that the spin off loli manga is more "real" than 2/3rds of the VN.
I don't like trying to draw parallels, but explaining things like why Shinobu and Araragi want to be life partners and reformed their connection are things I can do easily. I look more deeply into the people as they are and their relationships, not like, what will become of them.
I don't think Nisio was specifically trying to draw parallels with the ghostbusters and the kids. Now that they've got slug, the town is fine.
Yeah, she crushed on him because it seemed like he was trying to save her, totally. But if she realised his intention in the grand scheme, she'd fucking drop her pants immediately. Well, reluctantly probably. With a glare.
She just fell in love with the person who actually saved her.
Personality? Hmmmm, maybe. Araragi turns out pretty laid back and honest like Oshino.
I'm hoping Tsugimonogatari is about their college days or something. Summoning Yotsugi and stuff. We know the price Teori paid for that, but I want to know if Kagenui actually can't step on the ground because of a curse related to her part in that.
Nah. That's just tomboy genki Sodachi on the cover. Zokuo is about mirrors. In reality, she's the humble peafowl. In the mirror, she's genki-as-fuck and the peafowl becomes a peacock.
Touko not getting along with her servant at all because she summons one with a similar personality.
Aoko summoning a persistent piece of shit with limitless energy and terrible parameters.
...Are you serious?
That's literally what happens in the Fate route. They're running from Berserker, Archer takes him on, they go and have an awkward threesome in a shack and come back to finish Berserker off.
I've been trying not to read your discussion to avoid spoiling Monogatari, seeing as how I can't read beyond what little has been translated, but Aoko summoning a wise master-style Servant (Confucius style) and Touko summoning an ADD one (Astolfo style) would be freaking hilarious.
Yeah man, I'm trying to avoid the Monogatari spoilers and I think I'll be alright since even though I'm having this conversation its currently 1am where I am and I'm exhausted so I'm going to wake up tomorrow morning and have forgetten the spoilers
I've said Apocrypha is an example of what Fate should be, and lamented that the original universe is limited because of FSN.
I'm enjoying Apocrypha nearly as much as Zero, dude.
Yeah because writing "half a day of running later" is totally adequate pacing. Unless the translation you read had six hours of Shirou complaining about his legs. Maybe we read different VNs.
As far as I remember, 10 minutes of reading after Archer faces Berserker, they're fucking in the shack.
>Heroic spirit who likes gambling gets summoned to the war
>He doesn't fight physically, but he gambles against masters, either by betting who wins between the two fighting servants or by playing poker, chess or Jenga
>you risk losing a Command Seal, Noble Phantasm being disabled, inportant memories, souls or emotion if you lose against him
>Fate/Enforcer or Fate/Policia
>you're a police investigating strange occurrences in Fuyuki
>it's based on the events of 4th grail war
>you can kill Gilles' Tentacle monsters, but you can't do something that'll change the outcome of the war
>your just there to take notes on the events of HGW, taking enough evidence to catch crooks
>true end is him getting swallowed by the mud, you're given of the option to continue or restart
>if you continue, it takes you back to the 1st day, you are now allowed to change the outcome, various options for each dialogue are unlocked
>you can now kill masters and create contract with servants
>you're stuck in a never ending dream, you're already dead. it won't affect the 5th grail war
>Touko summons Prisma/Illya
Choked on my coffee
Yeah, I've gotta get back to grading papers now anyway. So there won't be anymore. Sorry m8s
It's a weird feeling, getting called a secondary, by secondaries. (Not you)
If you weren't a secondary you would know why the first two hgw ended up as failures, and the reason is clear as fuck.
Besides, as >>115032996 said, fate zero was pretty much decided by nasu. urobuchi wrote the novel himself, but the events were already stated
If you have to declare you're not a secondary, you're a secondary, man. Nothing screams tryhard harder than saying you were reading Fate before the franchise was cool. (Paraphrased).
You doth protest too much
"He doesn't fight physically"
Just slap his shit from across the table.
The FSN/Zero universe is specifically limited. The greater universe is somewhat gimped because of FSN itself.
I've addressed why already.
There's the accusation again.
I hate all of them so yes, yes I would.
...I do know why they failed. What are you disagreeing with me about? My point about Zero is that Nasu is good at building a universe and making general plot points, Urobuchi did an excellent job of filling in the blanks. A better job than Nasu could've ever dreamed of doing himself.
And I'm saying your idea is dumb and what's more it isn't related to the quality of the stories.
The fact that fsn has a multi route structure is non influential, you would have never get a sixth war either way because of the very premise.
fha is a fandisc and should be taken as such
>He doesn't fight physically, but he gambles against masters, either by betting who wins between the two fighting servants or by playing poker, chess or Jenga
I choose Washizu.
my point is that urobuchi did nothing.
he created few irrelevant characters and filled the story with weapons because that is his major fetish, but nothing else.
What's more I think you read the english translation of both works so you can't really judge their writing, especially nasu's.
I'm curious, how did the 1st 2 failed? was it because only the 3 family participated?
which is the war where they stopped fighting and they just waited for the grail to materialized? which war did the 2 sabers got summoned?
did we ever found out who the 2 sabers are?
now I want see Shirou in Kaiji's place betting his command seal against Washizu while Rin, Saber and archer are sweating at the background with ''Zawa Zawa'' sfx
>my point is that urobuchi did nothing.
>he created few irrelevant characters and filled the story with weapons because that is his major fetish, but nothing else.
That's really not true. He's a humble guy but we know from interviews that he contributed a lot to the story.
For example Iskander would have been a completely different character more like Nero if Nasu had written it. Urobuchi also wrote Kariya's death from scratch. This suggests a fair amount of agency over the story.
>I'm curious, how did the 1st 2 failed? was it because only the 3 family participated?
That's how the first one failed.
The second one, not a 'joke' like OP said, but was the most serious grail war of them all with seven magi going fucking berserk in Fuyuki city, hellraising a ruckus that called the church all the way to japan, resulting in a bloodbath where all seven participants died.
The first was uncompleted, they had yet to decide how to deal with the system. You could say they failed to finish the ritual to summon the grail.
The second was them slaughtering each other, and that's why they called the church from that point.
We don't know about the two saber summoned in the third war, what is this supposed to prove?
Wait for another prequel.
Everything about this is retarded. Why bother with more wars? Who wants to expand upon that? Not Nasu. If he wants a new grail war, he'll just make up a new fucking grail war outside of Fuyuki (see: Extra, Apocrypha) or even go back to the Kaleidoscope basics and tell a new story in another universe (see: Prototype, Apocrypha). Not necessarily mutually exclusive.
(Yes, I know Prototype and Apocrypha are not stories Nasu is writing, but that was also my first point. Nasu wanted to write Fate and be done with it. He has more stories to tell than heroes clashing dicks with each other for a wish that will never, ever be granted.)
I'm doing a PhD in social psychology at an Australian university. So if 23 counts as an oldfag, then yes, I suppose. PhD students tend to tutor undergraduate classes in their field, as a supplement to the lectures.
I'm only good with Jap because my primary school forced us to learn it for 4 years, then I took it for another 5 years in high school. Self-taught since. I've only actually been to Japan once, and it was only for a few days.
Uh I dunno, I hope so. I have to try and be nice because of tevals. But usually the kids are fine. It's 80% girls with Daddy complexes anyway.
There's actually this kid in the first year subject I tutor who has honestly said he's just taking social psych as an elective so he can be a "pick-up artist". He wears a graphic tee, cargo shorts, and sandals to every single tute session.
His paper on social ostracism is one of the next I'm marking.
I'm not looking forward to it.
The Einzberns are the ones who summoned the 2 saber right?
I can't picture out Classy Magus going all out for the Grail, It woul look cool if it gets adapted as a short animation like Fate/Prototype so that we could see a glimpse of hell, now I'm curious on who their servants are
FFFF. You're my age, so you're a total oldfag.
You should screw the kid over and give him terrible grades. "See you next Fall/Semester (insert name)"
I dare you to reference FSN in an official document
Man, what? You're utterly insane. There's nothing stopping them from coming up with alternate universe stuff or adapting some of the earlier wars. Hell I'd love a telling of the third war. And they've already done a bunch of alternate grail war shit. Do you just have a hardon for direct sequels that no amount of spinoffs will cure? It's not like Fate isn't milked enough already. I don't get you.
We can't have a proper sequel because it wouldn't make sense.
When the prize is a wish-granting machine a completion of such a war would mean the end of the conflict and you can't keep talking about failed attempts.
Furthermore the grail being corrupted is why the story had to finish at that point.
You can still write things in another reality, which is possible according to nasuverse, or about other adventures happening there like archer's story, the third war.
>It's 80% girls with Daddy complexes anyway.
Eh, that's pretty dangerous, the parents are usually the most dangerous thing though.
>I'm not looking forward to it.
I know that feel
But you can hardly count as oldfag.
Nasu didn't want to make a "proper sequel". He wants to
1. remake Tsukihime
2. do the other two Mahoyos
3. make Tsukihime II
4. maybe something else after that
but people keep clamoring for more Fate and who is he to refuse money? Thus, Fate/Grand Order coming soon hope you're happy.
>Grail War actually doesn't happen alone in Fuyuki
>Shirou gets an invitation to USA, to participate in the Greater Grail War
>he accepts it and he is given a catalyst
>He fights against the other survivors who participated in Grail Wars in different places, from India, China, Greece, USA and other countries
>powerhouses like Achilles, Cu, Karna, Siegfried, Iskandar and 10 more servants gather to fight for the greater and true grail
Some kind of poll with the Riders.
If you think Nasu's writing is more eloquent in Japanese, I have shocking news for you.
I read both in English at first, went over them in Jap when I was better at reading rune.
The First "war" failed because the families realised it didn't quite grant a collective wish, rather it met the wish of an individual. Although they had the same wish, each family had a different interpretation of the methodology of achieving it, essentially. So they invited four other mages to come along and it turned into an autistic wizard meetup. Didn't conclude because it was their first time, really. The ritual wasn't quite right.
Second war was just a fucking slaughter because they hadn't established a governing body or rules. None of the participants survived.
The Third would've been the first proper war, but the Einzberns are fucking idiots.
The Edefelt sisters summoned 2 sabers in the Third war, 2 sides of the same spirit. It's unknown whether this caused another class to be bumped out of the war, but the 2 sabers were separate.
It hasn't been established which hero Saber was in the third war. It'd have to be someone like Lancelot. Sane and loyal/batshit and traitorous. It was likened to Saber and Saber Alter.
Nasu can't write for shit though, so please no. I'm just saying he fucked up with the establishing piece.
One of the biggest points of Fate is that there is no true grail. "Kill everyone else to satisfy your greed" goes against literally everything Jesus stood for.
Has anyone tried to make an outline of what a true canon route would be like? I imagine it would just be most similar to HF, but with all the arcs of Saber, Archer, and Team Caster added in. It would be interesting to see someone try to work it out more specifically though
Just now I've started wondering what the hell the title was supposed to mean.
It's obviously an engrish mistranslation, but of what? Fate/Still Night? Fate/Stay [home at] night?
- powergap -
5. Saint George
6. Francis Drake
8. Alexander the Great
Disease can't really be put on a power scale. Rank N/A.
The greatest shocking news is that I read both in Japanese and even if nasu is far from being the best writer of the medium saying its style is as good as the english translation most of you read is plainly wrong. most of his peculiar as well as good sides are lost in the translation, but since you read it you must know what i'm talking about, am I right?
urobuchi style is plain and isn't better than nasu's.
that's the twist
Shirou realizes this and uses all the weapons he witnessed being used by the other 17 Heroic spirits as broken phantasm to destroy it and it burns his circuits in the process, turning him into EMIYA
then we'll get
1. Medusa: 4036 votes
2. Alexander: 1623 votes
3. Francis Drake: 1220 votes
4. Astolfo: 1132 votes
5. Pale Rider: 493 votes
6. Ozymandias: 463 votes
7. Achilles: 452 votes
8. Perseus: 221 votes
9. Saint George: 123 votes
It'll actually probably be good because he seems really diligent, but I just know I'm gonna get personal experience vibes from it.
I could probably get away with that. Researchers do stuff like that with publications all the time. There's a group of Swedish researchers who are competing to see who can get the most publications with Bob Dylan references in the title.
They quickly became enemies
One was defeated by a Tohsaka
No, I love stuff like Apocrypha. I just like the original universe so much that I'm saddened at how FSN shot itself in the foot in regards to continuity.
Yeah, I've got a bit of a hard-on for direct sequels/prequels. But as I've said, Apocrypha is fucking great.
I wouldn't go for them like that, I just meant it in a personality way. I'd have to declare me fucking any of them to the university anyway, if I was their tutor at the time. No thanks.
The original story is fine the way it is, and since the whole idea is interesting and can be used in many ways you will have other spin offs such as f/a.
I can't really see your point.
>I wouldn't go for them like that
I didn't mean that, I guess anyone who had to work with such girls as a tutor/teacher wouldn't even think to do something like that, at least I say this from my personal experience.
And yeah, Apocrypha is looking great so far.
I'm sure there's a million fanfictions for it. Just like the third war.
Nasu established a great universe. He gimped the future potential of said universe with FSN. I have explained why so many times. It's just my opinion.
I think I understand what you mean by peculiar in Nasu's Japanese, but it didn't come off as characteristic to me, I suppose. It read awkwardly.
I hugely prefer Urobuchi's writing, I wouldn't necessarily consider it to be more simple. It's just more thoughtfully constructed.
Tell you what. I'll give FSN in Jap another go, but who do you think Nasu is most comparable to in terms of writing style?
Surely you'll agree that the sex scenes are only improved by the English translation though, yeah?
Nasu: If I had written Fate/Zero, then Iskandar would have been a character like Red Saber. In my mind, I can only see Iskandar as a worthy opponent to Gilgamesh, but the Iskandar Urobuchi created was an excellent, wild, and unprecedented character that I could have never thought up. But I want to surpass him somehow, so maybe Red Saber was born out of my drive to create a different tyrant from Iskandar.
Not quite, I would've preferred if the Grail wars had more history for others to fill in, to slowly establish a nice core canon.
The history established by FSN limits that to prequels of the Third and Fourth, with 2-page summaries for the First and Second.
Correct about the second sentence though.
It's never worth the crazy.
>He gimped the future potential of said universe with FSN
But he didn't. You're limiting his universe solely to "the fuyuki grail wars", and that's dumb as shit. There's stories to tell about Emiya's future, about Rin's future, about the magus association, about the dead apostle ancestors, about Arcueid and Shiki, about renegade magi, about Sion, about the end of the world and the war of overcount 1999, about the aylesbury valesti, about the fourth sorcery, about the first sorcerer's inheritor, about what Jubstacheit will do after the end of the grail war, blah blah blah Nasu has a fuckton of stuff to go on with his universe.
Why the fuck do you want everything on the "main" timeline? Every time someone wants to cram thousands and spin-offs and alternate storylines on the main timeline it becomes a enormous clusterfuck where nothing makes sense.
>Urobuchi Gen (Madoka) - If you ignore the actual content of his stories he's A tier, but I'll put him here since I wasn't really blown away by anything he wrote except Kikokugai. Really vivid and descriptive writing with a super huge vocabulary, pretty much the best at describing action scenes and giving you a picture of what's happening in your head in general other than Jackson.
I'll believe Moogy over you since I know Moogy is actually good at Japanese.
Except the Grail wars aren't particularly important in the grand scale of the Type-Moon universe.
You just seem mad about Fate being one of Nasu's one off works that happened to get popular enough to be expanded upon a bit in spinoffs in prequels. Which is just dumb, really dumb.
The point about bitching about H/A is just silly.
>And any alternate timeline shit he's had a part in has been awful.
So he gives you more Fate stuff, and you say it's shit. Wow there's no pleasing you. And what makes you think if he worked on "core" stuff it would be any better? He's still the same Nasu.
But they'd all suffer from the KnK thing of "oh this is just a parallel universe/possibility~~~".
Please read the rest of the thread.
Please read the rest of the thread.
>But they'd all suffer from the KnK thing of "oh this is just a parallel universe/possibility~~~".
That's dumb as fuck, Kaleidoscope, it's all canon. KnK is as canon as the rest. Did you not like KnK?
Hell that applies to Fate/Stay Night itself, because it shows 45 different iterations of one guy's life.
>Who the fuck is this Ozymandias faggot
The King of Kings
10000th grails war, why would anyone want something like that?
Creating many shorter versions is better.
And as I already said you can still make war in other countries or talk about what happened afterwards or in another universe. If they are milking it it means it's not so limited.
Nero and Iskandar aren't so different character wise. You don't think so because all you can see is another saber clone which is partly true.
>But they'd all suffer from the KnK thing of "oh this is just a parallel universe/possibility~~~".
Again, why is this a problem? It seems to me you are completely buttblasted because you realized Type Moon will not go the way your headcanon went or something like that.
He manages to look genuinely gayer than Archer, that's an accomplishment.
But the interviews actually said he did. It even explain how he recruited Higashide playing mahjong to write Apocrypha, and how they created the setting together. He then designed all the new Servants that weren't in the online game, while Higashide did the human characters.
I will ignore the fact you used moogy as source.
Tell me, did I ever write urobuchi is a bad writer?
I didn't, because he is fine. His writing is plain though, he doesn't waste time with a particular prose, he is more direct.
I think moogy likes nasu too, if that matters.
Sugoi Japanese oniichan, the second sentence is awful.
What was I talking about? It's pretty obvious if you read the novel, could you point it out? Too many people pretend to do things they don't.
I skipped all the sex scene but they suck all the time.
The shitty generic ones were Nasu's ideas in some cases, yeah. It's easy to make a servant template though.
The actual plot and writing of Apocrypha is good, and he had no large part in that.
>Archer is the epitome of masculinity
I guess it is considering he's one of the most wanted regarding gay TM stuff.
>Too many people pretend to do things they don't.
>I skipped all the sex scene but they suck all the time.
>His writing is plain though, he doesn't waste time with a particular prose, he is more direct.
But that's the opposite of what Moogy said and I believe Moogy to be more trustworthy than you since he actually knows Japanese.
>I think moogy likes nasu too, if that matters.
Moogy actually called Nasu amateurish. Don't confuse "It's not as bad as Taka Jun" for "It's good".
Anyway I actually have to get out now, otherwise I'm not going to meet an already extended deadline. Didn't think the thread would go this long.
I'll just post about FSN being a terrible core or something in another thread and argue with you guys about it then.
It's been fun.
Stop making shit up to fix your fucking headcanon. The whole setting was made by Nasu, the only shitty Servant is Jack and that one was made by Higashide (along with the human characters) and the rest were from the guests in the original online game.
Nasu directly did Shirou, Mordred, Sieg, Chiron, Karna, Achilles, and Avicebron.
Ignoring the fact that the HF scenes were pretty good they are pretty important to one of Sakura's major developments.
Anyway you're still kind of a faggot.
Have fun being a pedantic whiny faggot next time
Can't you fucking read?
I said moogy likes nasu, not moogy likes how he wrote fsn.
Using a lot of adjectives doesn't make your writing peculiar.
uro's scenes are direct and it's like you're watching a movie, but he isn't known for weird traits
SHIT TASTE TEST
-Mordred best saber clone
-Karna liked his ccc counterpart
-Achilles funny guy
-Semiramis waifu tier
-Siegfried i dont like him
-Chiron funny guy
-Jeanne would fuck
-Shakespeare he is supposed to be great but i dont like him
-Spartacus (Gen) awful
-Vlad (Gen) he was a funny guy
-Astolfo i dont like traps
-Frankenstein's Monster zero fucks given
-Jack would fap to but otherwise she's bad
-Mordred >TAKEUCHI'S WAIFU MUST BE IN EVERY ITERATION OF THE UNIVERSE
-Karna >Hey lets just re-use that overpowered cunt from Extra
-Achilles >Good, albeit somewhat generic
-Semiramis >Cunty Medea 2.0
-Shiroumine >Awful for obvious reasons
-Siegfried >Good, but generic
-Chiron >Great because Achilles
-Atalanta >Interesting, sort of bland
-Shakespeare >Excellent character, A+ banter
-Spartacus >Perfect Berserker, but generic
-Vlad >A bit edgy, but great otherwise
-Astolfo >If you dislike Astolfo just leave
-Frankenstein's Monster >Interesting concept, poor delivery
-Jack >Warning: Sharp Edges
I'm gonna have to give it to team Not Nasu
The sum of their good ideas are not necessarily better, but their bad ideas are nowhere near as abysmal
>The sex scenes are actually permissible in Tsukihime. They don't feel tacked on for sales.
Anon, what? Now, the remake having the sex intact is great and also pretty much necessary due to the considerable change it would be to exclude them.
But Arcueid's "I'll reward you alright, just wait." and Len's little "Who do you want it to be?" scene, is no doubt the most tacked on scene Type Moon has written.
>Semiramis waifu tier
>I do not value my life whatsoever
>Not the worst character ever made
>Not liking Shakespeare's constant arrogance and going around quoting himself
>Hey I'm a huge faggot
Are you an oppressor?
>i don't like traps
Good character regardless
Most valid comment on Avicebron possible
>Not cool as fuck
Otherwise I agree with you. Apocrypha has great character interactions.
>Awful for obvious reasons
What obvious reasons? The actual red herring and the reveal was pretty good. And the whole inverted Kiritsugu angle is quite interesting. I'm seriously doubting you know what he is about.
>He and Sieg are the main conflict of Apocrpyha after all
>Actually justified Saber clone
>A cunt? Karna's whole character is about him being a nice guy
>If Achilles is generic, Cu Chulainn is generic too.
I actually think that all Apocrypha's character are great.
I think the final fight will be Jeanne & Mordred vs Karna, Shakespeare & Shiroumine, with Karna's already having used his ultimate NP, so he's nerfed.
Kairi will pull some clutch Kerry shit
By "cunt" I think he just meant it as "a person I dislike". He's probably Australia. The issue is probably with the originality of it.
...Do you actually think Jack and Avicebron are good characters?
Who let OP in charge of not being retarded?
They can expand the Typemoon/FSN Universe as much as they like it's just you fags complaining that you won't see any Saber/Shiro/Archer anymore.
>TM was already famous with tsukihime
Famous as a doujin work.
>they even made an anime out of a doujin work
There is no Tsukihime anime.
But seriously, the anime was a low-budget abortion that sold horribly. Nasu would not be blamed at the time for thinking he had blown his big chance.
>An actual justified Saber clone
>Badass and a nice guy. Really likeable. He was also great in CCC.
>He trashtalks a bit to much, but he is fun to see and his rivalry with Chiron is interesting.
>I disliked her at first, but she kinda grow on me.
>I'm waiting to see his whole resolution to make a judgment on him.
>I like the concept.
>The wise master archetype is always good if done properly.
>Great. I think I like her more than Saber.
A bit bland, but decent.
>I love him. Hammy guy is always good.
>Good Berserker, bland character.
>Good, but bad wish.
>Really fun and likeable.
>Bland, but cute.
>(this is not a bad thing, in the case of Fate/Zero it worked really well. But only because Urobutcher is good at writing when you give him clear plot points to include and adhere to)
I thought the way he had to adhere to "Kiritsugu only ever said three sentences to Saber, those were Command Mantra orders" was incredibly forced.