Why exactly was the revelation that your soul gets taken out

>>113607884
Soul in body = human.
Soul in jewelery != human.
There are people who care.

>>113607884
Because it turns them into walking corpses. From a logical point of view it doesn't matter, but they are 14 year old girls which very rarely think about anything rationally.

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>>113608035
Fucking normals!

Because it's dumb.

>>113608124
No it doesn't. Your body still functions just the same as it always has. Your "soul"(whatever that is) just gets placed somewhere else.

>>113607884
>Why exactly was the revelation that your soul gets taken out of your body and put in the soul gem such a big fucking deal?

When dealing with people that think less than they feel don't expect a logical answer because the cause is illogical itself.

>>113608124
This.
>>113608200
Well, change the words "walking corpses" for "walking machines". Anyway, you can't even begin to rationalize this, because, what the hell is the soul?

Because someone can grab your soul and quite literally hold your life in their hands? All someone has to do is grab it and drive off and from that point on you're an eternal consciousness unable to move or interact with anything in any way for an indefinite period of time.

You really think you could just shrug that off?

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>>113608255

>>113608255
Well, you just need to wear it as a ring, like they always do, and don't get it off no matter what. Sure, they could cut off your hand, but you have magical powers that should prevent that from happening.

>>113608200
>fast regen
>able to survive fatal injuries, possibly full body destruction if the gem stays intact
>able to turn on and off perception of pain
>body drops 'dead' once the gem gets some distance away from it
>functions just the same as it always has
You're don't have to be a 14 years old emo girl to understand you're not human anymore.

>>113608295
Yes?

>>113608307
Yeah, you can do all you want to prevent it, but if you forget or they get it somehow, then what? You're helpless in every possible way.

You don't see how this could possibly cause a 14 year old girl some stress?

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>>113607884
Magical girls are wizards.
Soulgems are phylacteries.
It is well-known that wizard's first thought of immortality leads to becoming a lich.
Storing your soul in a phylactery is required to become a lich.
Do the math.

Love, /tg/.

Sayaka a shit

>>113608454
The only correct answer.

>>113607884
Sayaka is a huge retard

>>113607884
Just fucking stick the gem up your butt. Like, seriously. It's the safest place. And it feels good.

>>113608401
>You're helpless in every possible way.
Just like you are if someone stabs you in the heart, or ties you down while you sleep, or thousands of things. There's no fucking reason to get stressed over that more than any other thing. It's not like they are fighting someone that has enough of a brain to get their souls away from them. Witches are not that smart, and they don't have any other enemy.

>>113608421
But here it doesn't turn you into Mr.Bones.

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>>113608491

>>113608491
Go away Kyouko

>>113608360
>fast regen
>able to survive fatal injuries, possibly full body destruction if the gem stays intact
>>able to turn on and off perception of pain

So superpowers, basically. You know, the things they pretty much signed up for when they decided to become magical girls. Doesn't warrant flipping your shit.

The only issue is
>body drops 'dead' once the gem gets some distance away from it

Which doesn't seem to be all that much of a problem given that most magical girls seem to keep it on their person at all times.

>>113608513
So you're saying that you expect these girls, states to be in the most emotional state of their lives, to take the revelation that they could have their soul physically stolen at any moment in time while fighting these creatures that turn their loved ones into suicidal, mindless minions, and to be completely fine with all of that, and handle it all logically with a cool head.

Are you fucking autistic?

>>113608602
I'm not leaving until those guys writing novels about fictitious magical girls acknowledge my solution as the best one.

Can Sayaka regenerate her hymen?

>>113608635
There's a route in the psp game where sayaka loses her soul gem for far too long and turns into a walking rotten corpse.

>>113608643
>Are you fucking autistic?
Where do you think we are? Of course a lot of us social retards would be unable to understand the thought processes of anyone except people like us.

>>113608643
It's actually a lot less dangerous than being a normal human, so you should probably fuck off

>>113608643
What the fuck is a "soul"?

You act like it's a given that the soul even exists or that there's some concrete agreed upon definition of what it is.

As for the other part, they were already aware of that when they became magical girls.

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>>113608564

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You people don't get this.

You think it's stupid because it's fiction to you and the characters can live or die and it doesn't matter. To them it's a reality that they are now trapped in, until they either die or are turned into a monster and murdered by their friends.

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>>113608124
ya it seems like something girls would care more about.

Madoka killing her best friend on accident was a damn good scene, so don't complain

>>113608742
Of course not, she lost it before she became a magical girl

>>113608635
>So superpowers, basically
>the things they pretty much signed up for
Not really, they didn't. They signed up because they wanted their wish granted. Didn't ask questions which was all right with QB since girls always flip out when they learn the truth.

>>113608742
Why does anyone care about hymens at all? I think everyone would be better off caring about whether the girl is slutty or not instead of whether she is a virgin.

>>113608643
Of course it comes out as a shock, and you can act however you want. But when you see your best friend being unable to face that shit, getting depressed, and getting worse as time goes by, you need to cool your head and think it properly in order to help her. Telling Sayaka that she still deserved to love and be loved shouldn't have been that hard.

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>>113608514
Who says that magical girls aren't just inside men?

>>113608794
We're not talking about becoming witches, though. That's pretty fucked up. We're talking about their souls being into gems.

>>113608760
Yeah, I'm sure most people watch their friends be eaten alive by supernatural monsters who exist to drive people to suicide. I'm sure that's what their life was like before this all started.

>>113608767
It was established pretty concretely in the show, you stupid faggot.

>>113608827
Nigga, they're 14 years old. And Madoka was the most incompetent by a long shot in that timeline.

>>113608874
This is what passes for humor on 4chan in 2014

>>113608911
I meant the whole ordeal of having an immortal regenerating body and being dependent on a soul gem. The fights are a complete mess and getting a bodypart cut off easily should be easy, not that it happens in the show though. Would you rather that bodypart be gone or just come back somehow?
That answer is obvious

>>113608827
You really think that Madoka can just all of a sudden become completely emotionally stable and convince Sayaka to do the same.

Really.

>>113608969
I'm pretty sure it doesn't, it looks just like shitposting.

>>113608969
I'm sorry you don't realize that a soul is effectively consciousness in Madoka.

>>113609025
>>113608947
Kyouko was also there. Homura was also there. Everyone was being completely stupid.

>>113608820
No, they signed up to become magical girls, in exchange for having one of their wishes granted.

>>113608991
It's really easy to say that as someone sitting at a computer, talking about a fictional character who you don't care about.

Why do you autistic losers expect every character in every show to basically behave like Spock?

>>113608911
>It was established pretty concretely in the show, you stupid faggot.

It really wasn't.

>>113609064
Oh right, I forgot, groups of teenage girls are known for approaching every situation with logic and an open mind.

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Why didn't Madoka just calm down?
Why didn't Homura just abandon her obsession with Madoka?
Why didn't Mami just get friends?
Why didn't Sayaka just dump her boyfriend?
Why didn't Kyouko just become rich?
Why didn't QB just use Spiral Energy instead of Grief Seeds to reverse entropy?

>>113609138
Why didn't Frodo just stop shitposting?

>>113609086
Sorry, but everyone was so painfully explicit about the dangers of becoming a magical girl to both Madoka and Sayaka that they should have at least thought ONCE in their lives that 'hmm, fighting might be dangerous' especially after fattie got her head bitten of.

Not even a menstruating Sayaka with half a ton of sand in her vagina should think that the soul gem deal is great for magical girls.

>>113609130
And that's what I agreed on from the first post. They are stupid, and reacting like what they are to something that shouldn't be that much of a big deal.

>>113609086
Even Spock gets in touch with his human side every now and then.

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>>113609182
Because he was trying to express his impression of this thread in a jovial and light-hearted tone.

>>113609205
>I was actually fiddling with your souls the whole time!
>not a big deal

>>113609285
>caring about something that doesn't exist

>>113609194
Again, really easy to say that when you've never had anything like that happen to you. Since when are teenage girls known for logically reacting to Alien technology hijacking their bodies? Since when are teenage girls known for their foresight and ability to consider the consequences of their actions in a calm and logical manner?

>>113609064
>>113609130
>>113609205
Geez, you guys are so full of yourselves. Their reactions are logical from various perspectives.

Don't worry, in the distant future MSY will hook them up with spare bodies.

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Because bitchyaka doesn't understand the difference between a zombie and a lich.

>>113607884
the potential of having your soul fucking shattered is kind of a big deal

>>113609354
Why are you so desperate to shitpost? It's fucking fiction, holy shit.

>>113609047
They are undoubtedly linked given what happens with the range limit but I don't believe they aren't equivalent.

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>>113608874
Fuck off.

Well, I think some of the issues are that we don't exactly get shown how different from human being a "Magical Girl" is.

The transfer of their soul/consciousness/"self" into the gem is necessary so that a transformation can occur to their body, the kind that makes them fit to fight witches.

It is possible that:

1) They don't age and will not age.
2) They don't have the same biological functions/capabilities (and thus are incapable of "love"/family/etc).
3) Their bodies are not really literally alive, as in, a connection of living cells that are dividing, etc, but rather, they are another form of existence fueled by magic.

It is also obvious that:

1) Being a magical girl means that your soul/consciousness is constantly being corrupted.
2) The only way to purify against this corruption is to kill witches.

So, the girls are well aware that they will have to be in head-severing danger in order to live on a continual basis.

This is before they learn of their eventual fate implied by 3) When too corrupted, magical girls become witches.

So in the long term their survival ultimately depends on assuring that other human beings become magical girls and go mad so that they can be murdered. If the cycle stops, they all die.

>>113609285
No, he's not. He just did when they signed the contract, and then left their souls alone. And the only thing he did was put them into a gem. Not that he altered them in any way or anything.

>>113609405
>It's fucking fiction
Just like god :)

>>113609384
It was actually Kyouko who said "zombie" first.

>>113609361
You're thinking about this too hard.
If I tell a teenage girl
>It's dangerous, you shouldn't do it

>It's dangerous, you shouldn't do it
>It's dangerous, you shouldn't do it
>It's dangerous, you shouldn't do it
She WILL at least think once about it being dangreous or not. Especially when you have fairly close relationship with Mami like that.

>>113608360
>you're not human anymore.
Of course not, you're a magical girl now.

>>113609397
why is that worse than having your body destroyed

>>113609445
>And the only thing he did was put them into a gem. Not that he altered them in any way or anything.
That's exactly what "altering" them is. The soul is not naturally in the form of gemstone.

>>113609569
Magical girls are humans too!

>>113609440
Holy shit stop trying so hard.
This is /a/

>>113609609
That's the whole point of the thread. The magical girls themselves don't seem to agree though.

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>>113609609
Humanish.

if that little trinket is broken/moved away from you, you die.

if you grew a second vital point on a hair decoration, you'd be nervous too,

>>113607884
I agree.

It shouldn't matter if your soul is controlling you from inside or out, it's still your soul.

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>there are people IN THIS THREAD who think you're still human once your soul has left your body.

>>113609662
The head's already a pretty vital point to begin with, for anyone. I mean sure maybe possibly a magical could grow it back but I think they would rather not lose it in the first place

>>113609576
If I take your liver out of you and put it in a box, I'm not altering your liver, I'm just moving it. Of course, this would be bad to you, but if I tell you that it will work the same by magic, and that in exchange, you gain superpowers, what exactly would you dislike about the situation?

>>113609771
>implying a soul exists

>>113609429
>Fuck off.

Okay, well, you're more painfully unfunny than that guy and...

>>113608767

You're being a complete edge-master.

The existence of the Soul Gem as a container for a soul is spelled out in the universe. It doesn't matter what you believe or think about whether or not souls exist in our world, because in the world of Madoka it is made obvious that the soul exists, because it is what is inside the Gem.

Your own thoughts on what a soul is, whether it does or does not exist, whether or not "we are all just chemical reactions" or whatever god-awful thing you want to say... like you are a child at the adult's table when it comes to a very long historical conversation. You can google Philosophy of Mind to get started, but honestly, unless you're ready to do 10+ years of reading from a lot of very very smart people who are also difficult to understand... you're not going to be able to say anything legitimate or even "original".

The exact words in your post are basically a meme.

>>113609798
Souls aren't livers. They don't ordinarily have a physical form.

If you were Kyubey, you would also neglect to tell me that you were going to do any of this with my liver to begin with, you'd simply tell me about the superpowers part.

>>113609865
Who said I was trying to be funny?

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>Not having your soul gem surgically implanted in your body as soon as you find out so you don't lose it

>>113608513
>Just like you are if someone stabs you in the heart, or ties you down while you sleep, or thousands of things.

No, because in any of these situations you will, at least, at some point, die.

If I were to throw your soul gem into the Marianas Trench, you'd go on existing, with no senses, no way to interact with the world, and no way to kill yourself, for *eternity*.

A guy got trapped in an elevator for 41 *hours*, and it profoundly affected his life. Had Homu not gone and got Sayaka's gem, she could have been discorporated for weeks. Had Homu actually intended to hurt her, she could have inflicted a fate worse than Hell.

* http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4693690

>>113609429
Hey man, Nice Meme!

>>113610153
>14 year old girls arranging surgery to have jewelry inserted into their bodies
>14 year old girls with healing powers undergoing surgery

>>113610155
And by the time you fall into despair, your SG taints and you become a witch. So it's the same, you end up dying. It's as bad as anything else.

>>113608767
>What the fuck is a "soul"?

Something this anime doesn't have

>>113610153
>surgically implanted
Not sticking it inside each other vagOO.
It was nice doujin.

>>113608969

It's a reddit meme that doesn't seem to want to fuck off.

>>113610153
>Gem is broken midway through surgery
>Getting a medical professional to go along with this idea

>>113610259
Not really. I think it's highly overrated.

>>113609865
Before the revelation, it's thought that the Soul Gem is just source for their magical power. IIRC there's nothing before that that alludes to the existence of a soul.

Oh, and what pointless thing to say. There are plenty of "very smart people" who also materialists.

>>113608200
>>113607884
> look at how it's practical
what if I tell you some people care for more than just how the results look on the outside?

>>113609069
but they didn't know that involved becoming liches

>>113609064
> some random girl was there
> the girl Sayaka doesn't trust for shit was there
gee, how nice
Only Madoka was in a position to even reach the little blue lich

>>113610155
she was just unconscious when soul gem was missing, elevator story is unrelated

>>113610298
>Gem is broken midway through surgery
Not him but I'm pretty sure doctor wouldn't bang on it with a hammer.
>Getting a medical professional to go along with this idea
Do it yourself.
Turn off you perception of pain, cut, put gem inside, ducktape the wound and wait for regen to kick in.
You could probably smuggle things that way too until they roentgen the shit out of you.

>>113609865
>people with different opinions are just edgy!

Mind you, I believe in a soul, but your just being a fuckwit.

>>113607884
It's not. But it's one of those things writers can just pull out of nowhere and they don't have to explain it. It's "just because"

>>113610738
>your

>>113609826
oh for fucks sake, you have no problem with emotion, which is just chemicals in your brain, being an incredible powersource, but you complain about calling a megukas personality a soul

I don't exactly see it either, but that could be because I have a very utilitarian mindset IRL

OP is a huge retard. They found out about it in a scene that literally shows one of millions of ways in which having a detached soul is difficult and problematic.

>>113610732
Mahou Shoujo Meguka Mafia when?

>>113608767
Wikipedia has a lot of definitions so I'll give you the one that is the most likely to make Sakaya go nuts


"In his discussions of rational psychology Immanuel Kant (1724–1804) identified the soul as the "I" in the strictest sense"

>>113610811
Your lack of comprehension has little to do with what was actually written or not.

>>113609826
> implying our world is the same as madoka's

>>113610940
Enlighten us then.

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>>113610891
Long time ago. Not sure if the guy ever finished the story though.

>>113608360
You're a human+1, not a monster or anything. Besides, from a genetic standpoint, magical girls probably are human.

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>>113610963
>he doesn't believe in cat aliens that give people superpowers to hold off entropy

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>>113610426
Yeah, real SPIRITUAL people such as myself care only about semantics!

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>>113610963
>implying it's not

>>113610980
There are over a hundred replies above you that have gone over this at length already.

>>113611086
>semantic bullshit

>>113608245
The soul is Madoka is what plugs into the human mind and gives it will and consciousness

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>>113610981
>madoka PP crossover

>>113609047

I always thought that horror was two-fold:
> "Shit, I'm no longer human."
> "OH SHIT, I'm *damned*. Not just cursed, but damned."

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So there are people approaching this logically who say the girls or Urobuchi or both are idiots; and there are people who say it's just the way girls would react.

As far as I understood, the sole reason Kyuubey gives for giving the soul a physical form is that it makes the body less fragile during battles, allows for regeneration and allows the girl to directly protect her soul. So in my understanding, it actually isn't necessary to create a soul gem at all. I don't know how purifying the soul would have worked if it were still immaterial, but I'm sure there could be a way of doing it.

What I'm trying to say is: Kyuubey is the impersonation of logical, rational and highly pragmatic thinking. So if you're saying, in a logical way this is no big deal and actually beneficial – congratulations, you just took Kyuubeys point. If you're saying the girls are idiots – congratulations, you just took Kyuubeys point.

He even says he never tells anyone because they always make a big fuzz about it, but he keeps creating the soul gem anyway because it is, from his (a logical) point of view, highly beneficial to them during battle (which he justifies with them having agreed to live a life of battling).

>>113611178
note that there are a few who took neither of those stances. Even if I was neutral towards him, after Rebellion i'd hate to be grouped with all the QBs here

Will /a/ ever stop hating Sayaka? She was great in Rebellion yet people still keep bitching about her all the time.

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>>113611178
>the sole reason
You're missing a pretty big and obvious one here too.

>>113611178
I think the issue is that the "soul" is an extremely nebulous concept. It would have made more sense if the existence of the soul was well established in the madokaverse as fact.

>>113611302
> great
she had thousands of years of experience behind her, acting mature unlike the rest was the least she could do, really

>>113611302
>Muh false flag operations

>>113611342
Yes, and? That doesn't invalidate the fact that she was great.

>>113611332

It is established as fact. That's why they're called 'Soul Gems', and why magical girls explicitly have an afterlife.

>>113611332
> QB pulls out soul
> if only they had established that the soul exists

>>113611382
not as great as any of the other girls would have been with the same experience behind them. Well maybe except for Mami. Being lead by your heart is nice, but so much as to constantly jump to conclusions...

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>>113611320
As far as I remember, they receive the most energy from the transformation from normal girl to magical girl and then from magical girl to witch. I doubt both processes require a physically present soul.

(However, I'm not sure. The series doesn't say anything about this, does it?)

>>113611388
>>113611392
I meant in the world as a whole, and the soul gem was originally just thought of as a power source.

>>113611455
Purely speculative. There's nothing to suggest that the others probably wouldn't have been much different anyway, and for the purposes of the movie they couldn't have been.

Then there's Nagisa, who herself went through similar experiences but doesn't give two fucks about anything that isn't cheese anyway.

I always assumed the soul being in your body was some kind of cultural thing that I wasn't picking up on.

As soon as I heard the twist I was like WAIT SHIT DOES THAT MEAN I CAN USE MAGIC TO MAKE MYSELF A CYBORG RAIDEN REVENGEANCE BODY?

Different strokes or some shit.

>>113611551
of course it's speculative if it isn't shown, but you can't argue that she has a great personality because her perfected version is great. We compare where comparison can be made, and Rebellion's Sayaka just can't be compared to anyone - well, except for Nagisa, but she's only there to be Mami's imouto anyway. So yeah, nothing will change in how people see blue

>>113611503
If I recall, Kyubey said specifically that the Soul Gem form allows them to command their magic, so the transformation between those is undoubtedly tied to having one.

>>113611699
OP here, yeah, the cultural thing is the only good explenation I could really think of.

>>113611781
> cultural
> wanting to be human is some weird cultural norm that only exists in Japan
go home QB

>>113611781
Yeah, it's all I could come up with.

Most Americans I know would gladly take a robot arm or put on a vampire mask if it meant they could have superpowers and wouldn't really give a shit if they weren't "human" anymore.

That's why I figured there must be some kind of weird Japanese cultural thing about how not having your soul in your body instantly makes you a zombie monster or some weird shit. I know I wouldn't give a damn if my soul weren't in my body if it meant that I could sculpt it in to something aesthetically preferable and FUCKING INVINCIBLE.

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>>113607884

>Madoka aired in Australia 2 years ago.

I feel old and busted.

>>113611699
>was some kind of cultural thing
I can't think of a single culture that doesn't think this, or at least isn't somewhat aware of this belief.

>>113611914
> most Amerifags
I see you've never talked to a religious person

>>113611964
Or someone who played D&D

>>113611914
>weird Japanese cultural thing about how not having your soul in your body instantly makes you a zombie monster or some weird shit
Well in the west when the soul leaves the body you're dead, or if you're fa/tg/uy and trap it in some jewelery you're a lich.

>>113611948
I meant more along the lines of the offer QB was making turning you in to something less than human, rather than more than human.

Who wouldn't want to be more than human? I'd put my soul in a rock and become a meat puppet in a heartbeat.

Of course, that wasn't really the point. The whole point of the Magical Girl thing was to turn magical girls in to witches, so of course Kyubey would actively seek out people that would lose their shit at the revelation instead of people that would be okay with it. He wanted the revelation to cause a BSOD and for a witch to happen. If he went out and found people that would gladly shed their humanity in a heartbeat in exchange for power, he wouldn't get anywhere with his plan.

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>>113612121
> abandoning your humanity for power

>>113612121
>to something less than human, rather than more than human
I think the issue here was the whole "not human anymore" part, compounded by it being a surprise rather something that was discussed with them in the first place

>>113612121
Doesn't the existence of a soul in the first place make you a meat puppet now matter where it is?

Kyoko seemed fine with it. She didn't go nuts after the revelation happened. It seems like only Sayaka and Mami were the ones ever to be upset with the revelation.

Homura's a bit of a grey area. She knew and was probably pissed off by it but she was too driven by revenge and wanting to stick it Madoka's pooper to go in to despair mode over it.

>>113611914

>Most Americans

Stop asuming that this board has american anos.

>>113612299
You're pretty much a meat puppet of your brain regardless of what the soul's doing

>>113612332
> pooper
> not making glorious homumado children
what are you even talking about

>>113612299
Yeah, exactly. Kyubey even says "why do you humans care so much where your soul is?"

Your soul is still your soul, and you are still you. Who gives a shit where it is?

>>113612332
Madoka was pretty upset as well, but at least she didn't go full retard like Sayaka did.

>>113612357
>you're a meat puppet of your brain

Alright, Mr. Dilkington.

>>113612332
>Kyoko seemed fine with it.
Kyouko was just as upset as the rest at first, and was the first one to use the word "zombie" in regards to it.

On the other hand she was quick to accept it later as her life was already a shitbucket to her and one more thing probably wasn't going to make it any worse

>>113612378
kyubey was supposed to be cold logical and heartless by human standards, and it seems he was also a fine representation of the average /a/non

>>113612368
>homumado children
>implying that homura's intentions were pure enough to want to sire children
>implying that homura wanted to make love to madoka instead of fucking her

It's like you didn't even watch the show.

>>113612472
> implying a yandere can be impure in any way
did you see Rebellion?

>>113612454
Kyubey was cold and logical. The only thing he did wrong was lying by omission.

If he had presented the whole case upfront he still could have gotten "sales," so to speak. Hell, he could have even said "If you aren't careful you could turn in to a witch" if he worded it right. He could have literally just been upfront and said "If your soul gem gets too impure, a witch will grow inside of it, explode your soul gem, and kill you. So don't let it get impure."

But, of course, that wasn't the point. He wanted witches to happen, so he omitted the shadier stuff and left it for surprises.

Becoming a magical girl is actually a pretty fucking fair deal, and if Kyubey had presented the facts in their entirety upfront he wouldn't have been a bad guy. Once you know the facts, being a magical girl seems like it'd be a piece of cake. The two things Kyubey doesn't tell you, "your soul is in your soul gem" and "if your soul gem gets corrupted it kills you and a witch pops out" are two entirely manageable downsides if you know about them.

>>113612687
> manageable
> implying he didn't try it that way at first
you're like a young QB who thinks there's an easy way out and just doesn't get why they care where their soul is

>>113612687
Kyubey does not care about making "fair deals", that's the point.

>>113612787
>But, of course, that wasn't the point. He wanted witches to happen, so he omitted the shadier stuff and left it for surprises.
Well yeah.

>>113611320

The soul reason?

>>113612517
Homura is insane evil and Madoka doesn't love her even a little bit.

>>113612914
Every fucking thread.

>>113612787
Way to miss the point yourself.

My point is that despite being a shady asshole, being a magical girl isn't a raw deal at all. It's ridiculously fair. If Kyubey wasn't intentionally leaving out the two upsetting things from the initial deal, he would be offering:

>a free wish
>superpowers
>invincibility/immortality

with the only downside being that you occasionally have to kill a witch or two to keep your soul gem pure.

But, again, that wasn't the point. He wanted people to turn in to witches.

All I'm pointing out is that despite his malicious intentions, what he offered was incredibly fair and if you were okay with the soul thing then you'd be getting a free ticked to being a fucking sick lich.

>>113612914
Homura is insane and evil and Madoka loves her just the same as everyone else because she loves everybody.

>>113607884
It's a total paradigm shift. Even you yourself think of your existence in the term of soul+body due to the culture you've been raised in, even if you don't believe in the existence of souls.
Clearly you haven't read cosmic horror or pessimist literature.

so soul gems are essentially puppeteers and the bodies are the puppets right

so

imagine a magical girl was aware of this

do you think she could extend her soul to other objects and control them

do you think

she could control skeletons

>>113612998
>what he offered was incredibly fair
It isn't fair if he's going out of his way to lie to the victim what he's offering to begin with.

If you were "okay with the soul thing" he would never approach you in the first place.

>>113613002
Homura isn't special to her, never was. Everyone else means more to her than some evil stalker who ruined her life. She won't forgive her and will send her to rot in hell alone forever.

>>113612998
>not a raw deal
>Kyubey will tell you "gg no re" after a giant witch (that appears due to him using you) appears and destroys humanity

OK.

>>113613192
Everyone is special to Madoka, including Homura! No one else means any more or less to her. Madoka will forgive her and they'll finally be together in heaven forever.

>>113612998
To be fair, if Mami's word is anything to go by, being a magical girl is a very hefty time investment. You may be forced to spend much less time with those you care about or on hobbies you enjoy.

>>113613192
>never was
How do you do this selective memory wipe thing?

>>113608491
>getting poop inside your soul

>>113613257
Yeah, but compare that to Kyouko, who lived her life incredibly leisurely and used magic for her own personal gain. Kyouko probably only killed witches as-needed and had a stockpile of grief seeds.

Mami only had a hefty time investment because she played the part of the superhero and went out of her way to kill familiars as well. Not only that, but I imagine her flashy fighting style wasted a lot of unnecessary magic.

Mami's a qt who I would love to hug but she's not really relevant to the plan of becoming an immortal, immoral scumbag.

>>113613247
Homura isn't a person, she's an entity of evil without hope that must be purged. Madoka never cared about her, she only tried helping her like she would anyone, but Homura is so awful it bit her in the ass. She will have her revenge.

>>113613280
She lied about being best friends, that was nothing more than a thank you in order to give her incentive to move on with her life. Madoka never cared about her otherwise and will hate her now for destroying her hope.

Homura loves Madoka more than life itself, and Homura is Madoka's best friend.

Only her best friend.

Homura and Madoka could have nasty grotesque sex and Homura could be smoking a cigar next to Madoka in bed and Madoka would say "Wow, that sure was something weird for two friends to do!" And Homura just smokes her cigar and cries.

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>>113607884
Something that doesn't exist gets taken out of your body and gets put in a gem.

Kids do it all the time, it's nothing, really.

>>113613559
You talk like Madoka isn't a dominatrix who makes Homura lick her feet clean.

>>113613654
only as friends though

>>113613703
Well of course, only as friends. But it seemed odd of you to ignore that Madoka is a super dom who regularly pegs all the girls in magical girl heaven.

>>113613559
Madoka isn't retarded. Sayaka and Hitomi are her friends, Homura was her mental patient. She is a saint and wanted to help this rejected dyke get a better life. Homura never loved her, she was obsessed with her and protecting her. She hates everything about Madoka that she thought was worth protecting originally. She is pure evil and Madoka will never love her. Madoka will tell her she regrets saving her and that she never meant anything to her before ending her life.

>>113613492
>She lied about being best friends,
FUCK YOU for calling Madokami liar.
I will hunt you down and I will break your arms, your legs and kick your nose in so deep you'll shit bone splinters.
Your little pretend grudge show you do to get anons' attention is not an excuse.
i will find you and you will suffer.

>>113613654
Madoka has the frilliest of frills and pink hair. She couldn't dominate an insect.

>>113613902
She sure dominates those frills tho

>>113613770
>pegs
>thinking that an all-powerful goddess is limited to petty mortal fucking like pegging
>implying that Madoka isn't inventing raunchy new methods of fucking in magical girl heaven

Why are the ancient aliens baffled that a great deal of creatures on Earth possess emotions?
Why are they so rare? What is the point of emotions and the soul from an evolutionary point of view? Kyubey's race had no need them.

>>113607884
THEY ARE MONSTERS DISGUISED AS HUMANS

>>113613867
You're a fool if you think Homura meant anything to her. She was just a poor girl who needed a friend to turn her shitty life around and nothing more. Madoka cared about Sayaka, not Homura. They were never friends no matter how much Homura tried to make Madoka hers.

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>>113613920
Indeed.

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I wish I had a comfy cape.

>>113613999
>What is the point of emotions and the soul from an evolutionary point of view?
It's the universe's way of circumventing heat death.
The incubators just sped up the process by creating the magical girl system.

>>113614380
I don't see how heat death would have been circumvented without the system in place.

>>113607884
You see there's a thing calling empathy, it is part of human social ability to understand other people.
When people "lack" it, they are unable to get into someone else's poisition and understand their thoughts.
To begin with, soul gems means that your body is no longer your body, it's just a walking meatbag that you control.
It is a big deal, they have to keep soul gems very carefully, or they might die, and they have to live like that the whole life.
Imagine that you become a cyborg all of sudden, while you still alive, it will not be the same anymore.
And here we have young teenage girl, idealist girl, who have no idea what kind of consequnces making a wish would make,
because they never being told what exactly will happend with them after they become magical girls and such revelations are not a good thing.
Also, there's element of how Sayaka was viewing herself, it is not just because of soul gem she become depressed, it is because she start to doubting if she was actually a selfless hero, and not just a selfish girl.
So having one bad news mixed with another giving us such results.

>>113613999
It wasn't just the emotions themselves apparently, it's the notion that human beings have such strong ones alongside their relatively short lifespans

Incubators don't possess them now but perhaps they did long ago in their own history, who knows.

>>113614138
When this happen?

>>113614528
see
>>113612299

>>113614488
They probably exhibit entropy defying properties but at such a mininscule level that it really doesn't make a difference.
It just happens that teenage girls have the appropriate psyche that would allow massive amounts of energy to be created if the incubators were to tamper with their karmic thingamajig. The incubators also have to account for the energy waste of galactic space faring societies.

>>113614796
It's a slightly extended cut of Rebellion's opening, I think it's an extra on the BD.

>>113615084
Rebellion's OP is the best thing about it, seeing Homura miserable and forgotten all alone with only her delusions to keep her company, with everyone else happy without her. Should have been the real ending.

>>113614488
Emotions are a scary thing in the puella magi universe.
Without witches to soak up the 'bad feelings' of humanity they create wraiths.
Emotions blatantly break physics there.

>>113615037
This is not about meta discussion of what "soul is" nor do I want to contribute something to it, it is about reasons and thoughts character have, why she did what she did, why she think that way etc.
The rest I live to OP or anyone who still have such question.

>>113615412
Nothing you said really gives a good explanation for that though. A soul is a soul, and whether it controls you from inside you our outside you shouldn't really matter.

I understand Sayaka's reasons for being upset, I just think her reaction to having not having her soul in her body anymore was extremely overblown.

Does anyone find it weird how no one ever thought to ask Kyubey *what* happens when your soul gem becomes too tainted?

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>>113615925
I don't remember if it was in the anime or one of the spin-offs or games or what, but his answer was "You won't be able to fight anymore!"

>>113615998
Well that's just a straight up lie.

>>113616441
Not technically, no.

>>113616561
They can still "fight", just in a different form.

>>113607884
>Some faggot steals your gem because it looks like an expensive jewelery
>Dead forever
How is this good

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>>113607884
You're welcome.

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>>113617482
T-thanks.

>>113616790
>implying some street thug could get past your superhuman magical girl reflexes.

>>113617727
What if the street thug was a magical girl herself

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>>113616790

They carry them in their nails most of the time.

>>113617727
That worked so well when Madoka grabbed it and thrown it away.

>>113617767
Kyubey doesn't tell magical girls about the danger, so that wouldn't be an issue most of the time.

>>113617938
That's because Sayaka a shit.

>>113617869
It's the ring, the nail is just a decoration

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>>113616790
Good for the guy that needs to pay his rent.

>>113618097

It comes out of the nail.

>>113618155
We have explicit footage of Mami transforming her Soul Gem into a ring

>>113618185
>explicit footage of Mami
Those Seismic 'games' were awesome.

>>113618240
I wouldn't call them games, they're more like interactive animated picture books

>>113616772
but not for the same cause

>>113607884
Well, wouldn't it be awful to find out that you are actually just a piece of jewelry that operates your body within close proximity?
You stop growing, you can't change your body at all and if you ever lose your soul gem your body will start to decompose like the corpse it is.
Despite being able to function like a normal human all those things make it a pretty horrifying revelation.

Do magical girls get high when purifying their soul gem?
Can they OD?

>>113611332
Well that was specifically one of QB's arguments. He said that humans generally don't even realize they have souls, so it shouldn't be a big deal to mess with it.

>>113618596
>Well, wouldn't it be awful to find out that you are actually just a piece of jewelry that operates your body within close proximity?
Not really.

Like others pointed out this thread, the existence of a soul essentially makes you a meat puppet, regardless of where it is.

>You stop growing, you can't change your body at all.

Where is this stated?

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>>113615925
Mami tells them that they have to cleanse their gems in order to keep using magic - whether she puzzled that one out on her own or asked QB and got a vague answer is up for speculation. QB also gives some nebulous warnings about needing grief seeds to keep fighting. At any rate, that was enough of an answer to satisfy them until it was too late.

>>113618596
>You stop growing, you can't change your body at all
Magical girls have, in all biological respects, normal bodies. It's not stated anywhere that they do not, so there is no reason to assume otherwise. Side material by Inu Curry confirms this.

We never see Homura age and perhaps that's where the confusion begins. Clearly her physical body isn't making the jump every time. With every rewind, she begins anew in her "just got released from the hospital" body.

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>>113618941
>Where is this stated?
It's not, but for some reason a lot of people have convinced themselves that it must be true, despite Mami and Kyouko appearing significantly younger in their flashback scenes.

>>113619118
IIIRC, Mami phrased it as "re-charging" your soul gem. She was under the impression that the cleansing process was re-charging it and that it getting corrupted was actually just the magic running out.

I reckon that either Mami puzzled that out herself, or that it's a common misconception among Magical Girls that Kyubey or any of his kin have ever bothered to correct.

Kyubey doesn't lie, he omits. "It recharges your soul gem" is a lie.

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>>113618941
>>113619278
People are not smart.
They assume because Homura never aged through out all here time loops that no magic girl can age. But Homura is obviously a special case.

>>113619424
>They assume because Homura never aged through out all here time loops that no magic girl can age
What the fuck? What retards have assumed that?

>>113607884
Yeah that never made sense to me, either.

>>113619446
All the retards who think they can't age.

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>>113619366
It's not really wrong, as such. It's true that they can't keep using their magic if their soul gem runs out, and based on Sayaka's reactions it seems like having a depleted soul gem is also physically exhausting and/or makes you crazy.

>>113619424
I've always been confused by that. She should be like 20 given the amount of times she's went back.

>>113619550
That's because the "she did 100 time loops" bull shit is just some number Gen pulled out of his ass on the spot, as it is completely irrelevant to the actual story.

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>>113619550
Because she doesn't physically go back, genius. The fact that she wakes up in the hospital wearing hospital clothes rather than her school uniform or magical girl outfit each time should have tipped you off.

>>113619550
She retcons time.

>>113619695
The first episode makes it clear she retains the physical skill she's gained.

>>113619823
Yes, and? Most of that comes from her body being magically reinforced anyway.

>>113618764
QB talks sense.

>>113619544
Sayaka's soul gem wasn't depleted, it was corrupted. It was the fact that it was full of witch fart gas that was making her crazy.

Because Sayaka was already a weak magical girl, blowing through magic like she was opened a floodgate for fart gas which turned her in to a witch in like two seconds.

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I think it's important to note that "I'm a zombie" wasn't the sole contributing factor to Sayaka's depression. It was just one of the several issues that made her feel like shit.

>>113619951
It was depleted of "magical girl" magic - that is, hope. The stuff that they need in order to keep being magical girls.

>>113620005
It wasn't just Sayaka, though. There's a reason why homuhomu doesn't just tell everyone about the soul gems.

>>113619823
She fixes her eyes with magic, you think she can't get ripped with magic too?

Once she understands that her body can be molded with magic, she is able to remedy her shitty physical condition immediately.

She can't grow herself any titties though.

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>>113620234
That can only be granted with wishes.

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>>113620234
Or maybe she just understands that she looks best as the slender beauty she already is.

>>113619875
It wasn't like that the first few times she went back, where she still had magic.

>>113620231
Yeah but Sayaka is the one who was affected by it the most.

>>113620351
She probably wants to look cool and boyish because she doesn't realize Madoka is purely straight and wouldn't love her regardless.

>>113620393
Because she got better at using magic. Why are you trying to push the theory that she physically goes back in time? There is absolutely nothing in the story that needs that to happen in order to be explained, and it would only open up plot holes. Like the hospital clothes.

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>>113607884
cuz now some dumbass can "accidentally" drop your soul gem in the ocean and have cake tea party with your body

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>>113620479

>>113620479
I don't like their faces

>>113620479
They look high.

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>>113620598
>>113620675

>>113620870
What is this, the Last Supper?

>>113607884
i think the bigger issue is that now that their soul has been removed and shoved into a pretty rock, the process is irreversible; once you become a magical girl, there's no going back.

not that sayaka seemed to care about that; for her it was mostly a standard fourteen-year-old girl's EW I'M A ZOMBIE THAT'S LIKE SOOOO GROSS.

>>113620974
She knew there was no going back from the start. She was willing to make that sacrifice.

>>113621087
apparently not, if that scene in the psp game where she decides to stop being a magical girl by tossing her soul gem and then promptly drops dead is any indication.

>>113621207
Okay that sounds dumb, I'm just going by the anime here.

>>113621241
In that particular timeline, if I recall, she had already formed a contract but this time witnessed Mami dying after.

I'd have to say the game's writing was not so great overall anyway though.

>>113621358
The games aren't canon are they?

>>113621546
Now what would compel you to go and ask a question like that?

>>113621629
The fact that they were brought up to make a point concerning the main story.

>>113621207
>>113621358
>psp
>meaning anything
Pick one.
>>113621546
They're not. And this is a perfect example who why it's stupid to think so.
This guy is trying to use side content to explain her actual character from the anime's motivations.

>>113621546
No, they can't be. In some instances they directly contradict the anime. Mami's route in the game is based off of Homura's "first timeline" for example but somehow has multiple endings, it's impossible for all of them to have happened.

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I thought nobody would be discussing this anime after 3 years. I wonder how long we can keep this up. I doubt it has the sheer discussion potential Evangelion has though.

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>>113607884
I can't get over how shittily they drew Sayaka's soul gem in this scene.

>>113621888
The background is more important.

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>>113621856
Madoka doesn't have quite the volume of weird-ass lore and minutia NGE does. The reverse, if anything: Gen is on the record as saying he didn't think too hard about a lot of the mechanics.

On the other hand, we'll always have waifu wars.

>If someone hides you soul gem you just sit there for eternity

Wouldn't they eventually (re: very fucking quickly) depair enough to turn into witches if they were in that situation?

>>113622132
Given that they lose consciousness when separated from their body, I doubt they'd actually despair. Because you kind of need consciousness for that. They might eventually run out of magic though.

>>113621546
maybe, maybe not, but it does show what those characters would do given a specific set of circumstances, thus allowing us a clearer perception of their personalities.

>>113621087
it's not hard to figure out sayaka's an impulsive idiot with a hero complex; it's probably not out-of-character for her to say "there's no going back!" and not actually realize what that means.

>>113622358
But as far as we can see she was, in fact, aware that there was no going back. That was never the focus of her despair.

So I was wondering.

When asked about his wish potential, Kyubey stated that you could have anything you want.

Then he makes a big deal to Madoka how she can REALLY wish for whatever she wants because of her latent magic potential.

I wonder what would happen if a low potential magical girl wished for on a ridiculous scale like Madoka.

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>>113622393
Presumably, his "you can wish for anything you want" pitch is a bit of an exaggeration, since Madoka's potential giving her the ability to become a god was a pretty big plot point. A low-potential girl making a huge wish probably wouldn't work, or would get a partial fulfillment. It seems like QB avoids that ever being an issue by only approaching girls who it's obvious what they'll wish for (Mami about to die, Kyouko in poverty, Sayaka despairing over Kyousuke, Homura despairing over Madoka).

>>113622393
Pretty much what >>113622497 said.

There's a reason for why teenage girls are the primary target.

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>>113622497
Approaching Homura still wound up backfiring in the end. Boy did it ever backfire.

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>>113622497
>QB avoids that ever being an issue by only approaching girls who it's obvious what they'll wish for (Mami about to die, Kyouko in poverty, Sayaka despairing over Kyousuke, Homura despairing over Madoka).
The wish possibility is driven by extreme feelings for something. So Kyubey jumping in at those moments is just him reacting to the strong emotional response to something, which makes an entropy reducing contract possible.

>>113608909
Refer to: >>113608421
Just switch lich for witch.

You don't become a witch unless you sign the contract, which is the main reason girls are made to sign the contract in the first place. To become witches in the long run.

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Why isn't there fanart of lich megucas

Do Japanese people even know what liches are

>>113623092
Because it's ugly.

>>113623192
You're ugly.

>>113621087
>>113622390
Well yeah, back when she thought all she would need to do is fight witches for Kyousuke's hand to be healed. Would she have been willing to do the same if she knew about becoming a lich and turning into a witch beforehand? It doesn't matter, because she's stuck either way.

>>113623092
There is.

You're just not looking hard enough.

>>113607884
Sayaka is dumb.

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>>113623994
You're dumb.

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>>113624306

>>113622195
They'd probably dream or something. Kinda like what Homura did in the isolation field. Those were special circumstances but I think the general idea would be the same.

>>113623994
Homura is dumber. And crueler. And more selfish. No wonder Madoka never loved her and Sayaka is her best friend.

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>>113624780
You again? Don't you have to go be autistic somewhere else.

Homura did nothing wrong.

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>>113625015
>letting people jam swords in her stuff in the first place

>>113624780
>Homura
>dumb

>taking on the burden of being god so your friend can live peacefully
>selfish

3/10 made me reply.

>>113625015
Your shit taste can't change the truth.

>>113625015
Sayaka didn't really get "btfo" since she still escaped anyway, and her only objective was to give some cryptic advice to Homu, which she accomplished.

>>113625222
She's pretty dumb since she hasn't realized yet she's a strong young woman who don't need no Madoka

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>>113625162
>Still getting easily overpowered by someone who's worn out from their previous fight

>>113611503
Maybe the reason is logistic, because qb mentioned that the gem help hers to use magic more efficient
Moreover it serves to transfer the "dark dusk" more easily that if pass through a body (with the risk of fade on it) and carrying that to I-no-know-where

>>113625222
You mean betraying someone to steal their powers to brainwash and kidnap them forever while destroying the universe.

Homura a shit. Sayaka a loyal friend.

>>113625300
She needs Madoka because AI YO.

>>113625372
She didn't get overpowered so much as she got kicked once.

>>113625015
>changing the filen name from "BTFO" to "Saykabfto" so you look like someone new
Redditfag, why haven't you killed yourself yet?

>>113625440
Because Madoka never remade the universe or (indirectly) messed with peoples memories.

Oh wait.

>>113625528
If Homura were a man she would have pinned Sayak down and made her a real woman, not like Madoka and her cuddling

>>113625558
I saved it from that thread and made my own name.

>>113625528
Sayaka had to run like a bitch, so she kinda did.

>>113625563
She never destroyed salvation or got off brainwashing her rivals because she's a sadistic cunt.

>>113625675
As opposed to what? She wasn't going to fight Homura in the first place.

>>113619424

They have full control of their bodies.

Most probably still age only because they think they should.

>>113625015
Is it so inconceivable that someone could save something and give it a similar name?

>>113625732
Cool fanfiction.

>>113625621
The odds of that are literally zero.

>>113625681
Homura saved Madoka from the burden of being the law of cycles. She made a new world and gave people new memories, just like Madoka.

>>113625015

I never really noticed how physically strong they are.

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>>113625866
>someone saving a webm from 4chan and giving it a similar name to the original are literally zero

>>113625952
I'm pretty sure he's just fucking with you at this point.

>>113625893
Madoka did not want to be saved and the law of cycles is in ruins. She brainwashed everyone to act how she wanted them to act and enjoyed watching Sayaka cry. I can't wait for Sayaka and Madoka to kill her.

>>113625764

They are clinically dead. They run on magic. Homura even modified her body on screen.

It's absolutely obvious that they don't grow like normal humans anymore.

>>113625998
Except if that were the case, someone would have figured it out before. But no one does.

>Homura even modified her body on screen.
She corrected her vision, we can do that with lasers. It's not that impressive.

>>113625952
Oh it is. Even more so in a fanbase that has been as killed as Madoka's. Even more so because the original was a gif, not a webm, and you're claiming to have saved it. So it makes it clear you're lying.

>>113625996
I'm guessing you missed the entire flower field scene then.

> She brainwashed everyone to act how she wanted them to act
No she didn't.

>enjoyed watching Sayaka cry
No she didn't.


I'm pretty sure you're baiting so I'm gonna stop biting.

>>113626047

Some discovered it before. We don't know how common it is, but QB mentioned how others react to it so obviously it wasn't the first time.

>>113626198
Yes, and they discovered it in the show too, when Sayaka's soul gem got thrown off a bridge onto a truck. The point is if they were "clinically dead", as your fanfiction claims, Mami or Kyouko would have noticed at some point in their careers.

>>113626086
>original was a gif

Have you gone senile or something?

>>113626086
>the original was a gif, not a webm
Anon, anyone can look in the archive and see that that's not the case.

>>113625713
She clearly wasn't able to defend herself.

>>113626327
Again, she wasn't actually fighting Homura.

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>>113626249
>Have you gone senile or something?

he's probably just pretending.

>>113626249
>>113626296
Stop samefagging.
>Anon
>not anon
Just showing how new you are, which is more proof you're redditfag.

>>113626373
You're telling me I shouldn't capitalize my sentences when they begin with "anon"? I have to admit, I haven't heard that before.

>>113626355
Having your sword easily flicked away and being knocked back before you can even react generally generally counts as being "overpowered", yes.

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>>113626373

>>113626480
Well Homura wasn't able to do anything about it the first time. She only had that opportunity because Sayaka put her sword down to talk. Because they weren't actually fighting.